Kerghan from Arcanum, of course!
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Your favorite RPG villain?
- Thread starter larpingdude14
- Start date
Lurkar
Scholar
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2006
- Messages
- 791
Malak was a shitty villian that people are DRASTICALLY overthinking. I really doubt Bioware thought of all these grand plots beneath the surface, and tried to make Malak this subtle parody or anything like that. He was Generic Sith #284.
As for me, Kerghan from Arcanum, The Practical Incarnation from PS:T, and Kreia.
As for me, Kerghan from Arcanum, The Practical Incarnation from PS:T, and Kreia.
SuicideBunny
(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
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- 8,943
the pc from motb
Lumpy
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2005
- Messages
- 8,525
Araman. A villain only insofar as he opposed the player, as he was a good guy deep inside (well, True Neutral if we go by the character sheet). You couldn't not sympathize with him, what with his tragic (but amazingly, not angsty) history. The contrast between the innocent child from Akachi's memories and the grim wizard of the present day was most depressing.
MetalCraze
Arcane
Lurkar said:
exactly.
still it's funny how someone tries to find a subtle context in -bioware- games.
On a sidenote, an RPG where you play a villain would be awesome.
Like in Wizardry 4.
Like in Wizardry 4.
Quite a few villains from Cobra Mission and Knights of Xentar were my favorites :D
http://www.holyfile.com/upload/screenshot746-2.gif
(potentially NSFW)
http://www.holyfile.com/upload/screenshot746-2.gif
(potentially NSFW)
Kingston
Arcane
LaDoushe said:
Que "JA is not an rpg! - YEs it is it has all the elements -But its not one because . . ." discussion.
Anyhoo, I loved Lacroix. The character's demeanor was just... awesome. A very charismatic character, thanks to the voice acting. I liked Kerghan's reasoning for killing everbody. And The Transcendant One was just badass.
Radisshu
Prophet
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2007
- Messages
- 5,623
Eh. Irenicus was actually really cool, mostly because of his voice acting. Speaking about motivation and stuff though, SEPIROT LOL. No, the Master. Having a huge lump of mutated goo called the Master would be kind of lame if it weren't for fallouts retro sci-fi elements, and he was pretty interesting as a character.
racofer
Thread Incliner
Todd Howard. He can crush any RPG player with one mighty blow, and followed by his fearsome warcry: "All your games are belong to us!!1!GRAFIX1!!"
deuxhero
Arcane
skyway said:
Acctualy if you want an encylopedia of clitches, the internet has something close to that.
Jaime Lannister
Arbiter
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2007
- Messages
- 7,183
JarlFrank said:
Or, um, Fallout 2? That game was the one game where you could truly be the bad guy.
sabishii
Arbiter
Nice pick. Thinking about it, MotB might have been a truly memorable game if it were standalone and not abstractly shortened as an expansion.Lumpy said:
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
Sephiroth. You get to see his agonizing fall from grace through the game, and his clever manipulations and amazing visual presentation kinda set the bar for all villains since. Not many have lived up to his example.
xantrius
Liturgist
My favourite antagonistically a-like character is Kreia from SW: Knights of the old republic 2
May the bombs of enduring freedom purge the CRPG scene of the formula of villain and hero and replace it with protagonist and antagonist for good ASAP... *sigh*..
May the bombs of enduring freedom purge the CRPG scene of the formula of villain and hero and replace it with protagonist and antagonist for good ASAP... *sigh*..
Azrael the cat
Arcane
I liked ol' Jon
Where do you get that from?
SPOILERS
,..
.
.
.
.
.
SPOILERS.
,..
.
.
.
.
.SPOILERS
.
Let's break down the PC v Jon and Bodhi encounters, shall we? Not including the multiple dialogues b/w you and Bodhi, and the dream sequences b/w you and Bhaal-posing-as-Jon (i SAID spoilers didn't I? Anyway, it isn't explicitly said that it was Bhaal, but they give it away by (a) Jon not knowing what you are talking about when you mention the dreams, and (b) Jon's diary which conspicuously indicates that aside from his desire for revenge on the elves, he isn't particularly evil (unlike Bodhi) - all his experiments and cruelty are aimed at the one target, he has no interest in the kind of random evilness that dream-state-Jon has, at least until after he replaces his soul with yours):
(1) Fight (scripted) outside Irenicus' dungeon initially b/w Irenicus, the Shadow Thieves and you, interrupted by the Amnish mage council-police thingies (forget their name), where Jon agrees to go with them as long as they also take Imoen - Jon basically wins that one as he gets his future new lair and access to a Bhaal-spawn
(2) Fight between Bodhi (at that stage still weakend through soullessness, though that gets explained a chapter later), her minions and yourself. You win until Bodhi escapes. Ok that's a win to the PC so I'll make the tally 1-1, but it is logically explained: ok the 'I was just testing you' explanation was a bit daft, but the idea that Bodhi was weaker at that stage of the game (stated in Jon's diary, also a couple of other places) due to soulsickness kicking in hard is logical in the context of the plot and not particularly anime-like.
(3) EITHER Jon and Bodhi capture the player, OR Jon and Bodhi receive the player courtesy of Yoshimo's betrayal. Jon takes you on a tour of the asylum, and then quickly sends you unconscious with considerable ease. Then he steals your soul. Tells you that Bodhi has already been given Imoen's soul, as (gasp, shock) Imoen is a half-sister and another Bhaal-spawn and that's why Gorian adopted both of you. That's a win to J+B: 1-2.
(4) A now healthy and Bhaal-spawn Bodhi attacks you and party in the tunnels beneath the asylum. You turn into the Slayer for the first time, drive her off and then attack your own party. (You do so again after your next rest, and randomly after that for another chapter or so until you learn what's happening and how to control it). No casualities on other side, not even an unconsciousness. Unlike (2), which I counted, this one doesn't involve you beating the crap out of Bodhi, so I'm not giving it a score. Net Score now 1-2-1 (1 to you, 2 to the villains, 1 draw).
(5) You and about 15 other high-level mages, freed from the asylum, gang-attack Irenicus (who now has your soul). Massively outnumbered, Irenicus does the plausible thing and flees. Still no villain deaths, Jon doesn't really get beat on, score now 1-2-2.
(6) You and (depending on which groups you do side-quests for in earlier chapters - yes, in BG2 Bioware actually flirted briefly with C+C, before deciding that MOAR ACKSHUN would sell better on consoles) any or all of: the shadow thieves, the paladins and Drittz's party all invade Bodhi's lair, killing her and her henchies. As mentioned, the game has a plausible explanation for Bodhi's increased strength and your having the numbers (and own increased strength) to take her on. Score now 2-2-2.
(7) After some dragon-killing and some meaningless combat (but far less of the later than later Bioware titles) you finally get another shot at Jon. By this stage Bhaal has made clear (by giving you the Slayer, and in your numerous dreams when he poses as Irenicus) that he disapproves of Jon stealing his child's soul, and that he is giving you strength to defeat him. Jon has the bhaalspawn soul, and even when he had soulsickness he was pretty uber. Plausible in-game explanations for both of you getting stronger over the game. You kill Jon, after 2 reloads to replan your strategy for making sure he doesn't pwn your party with time-stop and imprisonment spells, but as your soul goes to hell it, and Bhaal, pulls you with it. Score now 3-2-2.
(8) Final fight in hell, with both you and Jon in Slayer form. You win and get your soul back, frustrating Jon's revenge and saving yourself, but not saving the world or anything like that (if anything, you and Imoen pose a greater threat than one guy wanting revenge on an elven city did). Again, Bioware flirted with the notion of 'ooh storyline that is personal to the main character' before deciding that 'Chosen-one-saves-the-world' is easier to explain to 5 year olds, and 45 year old console gamers with the minds of 5 year olds. Score now 4-2-2.
Hardly a 'You killed me 9 times but now I'm MOAR POWERFUL' incident. Jon is ONE of my favourite RPG villains, along with La Croix, the Transcendant One, Ravel, Kreia, and Walter Simons. What I loved about Jon Irenicus (apart from the very very solid voice acting), and BG2 in general, despite disliking everything else that Bioware has ever done, was that it WASN'T the same old 'bad guy waits at the end dungeon for you to come kill him' where you think that the guy has to be the SLOWEST ACTING threat the world has ever faced (I'll just wait here in my throne room while my eventual killer grinds some more kobolds'). AND it wasn't a 'you've killed me 9 times but now I'm stronger' contrived Anime plot. It ran like a decent movie villain - you kept on interacting with the villains throughout the game, and rather than having a series of meaningless 'end bosses' for each dungeon, you'd keep having different encounters, fights, chases and escapes from THEM, sometimes them fleeing, sometimes you fleeing etc. A film writer would be laughed into the unemployment line if he wrote an action film where the only interaction between the hero and villain was the final fight - the villain needs to be a constant menace to the hero if he is to be plausible. What's more, Bioware didn't just rely on players accepting the convention: they gave both the player and the villains plausible plot-related reasons for being weaker in earlier fights and stronger in later ones, needing superiour numbers in some, but not in others. Sure, the game still suffered from typical Bioware weaknesses in other areas. But the villains it got right, in their character design, dialogue, voice-acting and their plot usage. Which makes their later (and earlier) work so frustratingly bad by comparison.
SkeleTony said:
Where do you get that from?
SPOILERS
,..
.
.
.
.
.
SPOILERS.
,..
.
.
.
.
.SPOILERS
.
Let's break down the PC v Jon and Bodhi encounters, shall we? Not including the multiple dialogues b/w you and Bodhi, and the dream sequences b/w you and Bhaal-posing-as-Jon (i SAID spoilers didn't I? Anyway, it isn't explicitly said that it was Bhaal, but they give it away by (a) Jon not knowing what you are talking about when you mention the dreams, and (b) Jon's diary which conspicuously indicates that aside from his desire for revenge on the elves, he isn't particularly evil (unlike Bodhi) - all his experiments and cruelty are aimed at the one target, he has no interest in the kind of random evilness that dream-state-Jon has, at least until after he replaces his soul with yours):
(1) Fight (scripted) outside Irenicus' dungeon initially b/w Irenicus, the Shadow Thieves and you, interrupted by the Amnish mage council-police thingies (forget their name), where Jon agrees to go with them as long as they also take Imoen - Jon basically wins that one as he gets his future new lair and access to a Bhaal-spawn
(2) Fight between Bodhi (at that stage still weakend through soullessness, though that gets explained a chapter later), her minions and yourself. You win until Bodhi escapes. Ok that's a win to the PC so I'll make the tally 1-1, but it is logically explained: ok the 'I was just testing you' explanation was a bit daft, but the idea that Bodhi was weaker at that stage of the game (stated in Jon's diary, also a couple of other places) due to soulsickness kicking in hard is logical in the context of the plot and not particularly anime-like.
(3) EITHER Jon and Bodhi capture the player, OR Jon and Bodhi receive the player courtesy of Yoshimo's betrayal. Jon takes you on a tour of the asylum, and then quickly sends you unconscious with considerable ease. Then he steals your soul. Tells you that Bodhi has already been given Imoen's soul, as (gasp, shock) Imoen is a half-sister and another Bhaal-spawn and that's why Gorian adopted both of you. That's a win to J+B: 1-2.
(4) A now healthy and Bhaal-spawn Bodhi attacks you and party in the tunnels beneath the asylum. You turn into the Slayer for the first time, drive her off and then attack your own party. (You do so again after your next rest, and randomly after that for another chapter or so until you learn what's happening and how to control it). No casualities on other side, not even an unconsciousness. Unlike (2), which I counted, this one doesn't involve you beating the crap out of Bodhi, so I'm not giving it a score. Net Score now 1-2-1 (1 to you, 2 to the villains, 1 draw).
(5) You and about 15 other high-level mages, freed from the asylum, gang-attack Irenicus (who now has your soul). Massively outnumbered, Irenicus does the plausible thing and flees. Still no villain deaths, Jon doesn't really get beat on, score now 1-2-2.
(6) You and (depending on which groups you do side-quests for in earlier chapters - yes, in BG2 Bioware actually flirted briefly with C+C, before deciding that MOAR ACKSHUN would sell better on consoles) any or all of: the shadow thieves, the paladins and Drittz's party all invade Bodhi's lair, killing her and her henchies. As mentioned, the game has a plausible explanation for Bodhi's increased strength and your having the numbers (and own increased strength) to take her on. Score now 2-2-2.
(7) After some dragon-killing and some meaningless combat (but far less of the later than later Bioware titles) you finally get another shot at Jon. By this stage Bhaal has made clear (by giving you the Slayer, and in your numerous dreams when he poses as Irenicus) that he disapproves of Jon stealing his child's soul, and that he is giving you strength to defeat him. Jon has the bhaalspawn soul, and even when he had soulsickness he was pretty uber. Plausible in-game explanations for both of you getting stronger over the game. You kill Jon, after 2 reloads to replan your strategy for making sure he doesn't pwn your party with time-stop and imprisonment spells, but as your soul goes to hell it, and Bhaal, pulls you with it. Score now 3-2-2.
(8) Final fight in hell, with both you and Jon in Slayer form. You win and get your soul back, frustrating Jon's revenge and saving yourself, but not saving the world or anything like that (if anything, you and Imoen pose a greater threat than one guy wanting revenge on an elven city did). Again, Bioware flirted with the notion of 'ooh storyline that is personal to the main character' before deciding that 'Chosen-one-saves-the-world' is easier to explain to 5 year olds, and 45 year old console gamers with the minds of 5 year olds. Score now 4-2-2.
Hardly a 'You killed me 9 times but now I'm MOAR POWERFUL' incident. Jon is ONE of my favourite RPG villains, along with La Croix, the Transcendant One, Ravel, Kreia, and Walter Simons. What I loved about Jon Irenicus (apart from the very very solid voice acting), and BG2 in general, despite disliking everything else that Bioware has ever done, was that it WASN'T the same old 'bad guy waits at the end dungeon for you to come kill him' where you think that the guy has to be the SLOWEST ACTING threat the world has ever faced (I'll just wait here in my throne room while my eventual killer grinds some more kobolds'). AND it wasn't a 'you've killed me 9 times but now I'm stronger' contrived Anime plot. It ran like a decent movie villain - you kept on interacting with the villains throughout the game, and rather than having a series of meaningless 'end bosses' for each dungeon, you'd keep having different encounters, fights, chases and escapes from THEM, sometimes them fleeing, sometimes you fleeing etc. A film writer would be laughed into the unemployment line if he wrote an action film where the only interaction between the hero and villain was the final fight - the villain needs to be a constant menace to the hero if he is to be plausible. What's more, Bioware didn't just rely on players accepting the convention: they gave both the player and the villains plausible plot-related reasons for being weaker in earlier fights and stronger in later ones, needing superiour numbers in some, but not in others. Sure, the game still suffered from typical Bioware weaknesses in other areas. But the villains it got right, in their character design, dialogue, voice-acting and their plot usage. Which makes their later (and earlier) work so frustratingly bad by comparison.
mjorkerina
Scholar
Re: I liked ol' Jon
This is why I was so pissed off with Bioware when I bought NWN1. BG2 isn't a stellar game but it was so big of an improvement over that shitty dungeon hack named BG1 that I thought it was still possible for them to better themselves again. But fuck. NWN1 was the worst thing they pulled out. There isn't a single thing that can redeem that game. Shitty story. Shitty combat. Shitty music. Shitty graphics (yes, even for its time.) It doesn't have *any* excuse, anything that stands out of the turds.
Azrael the cat said:
This is why I was so pissed off with Bioware when I bought NWN1. BG2 isn't a stellar game but it was so big of an improvement over that shitty dungeon hack named BG1 that I thought it was still possible for them to better themselves again. But fuck. NWN1 was the worst thing they pulled out. There isn't a single thing that can redeem that game. Shitty story. Shitty combat. Shitty music. Shitty graphics (yes, even for its time.) It doesn't have *any* excuse, anything that stands out of the turds.
Jormungandr
Liturgist
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2007
- Messages
- 127
Kefka from FFVI. The guy's just crazy and cold, ruthless. And I love the laugh. Besides, what's not to like about a guy who poisons innocents and blows up the world? Damn cool in my book.
Pussycat669
Liturgist
The final boss in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga for the musical score. You can hear it again and again and again.
SuicideBunny
(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
- Joined
- May 1, 2007
- Messages
- 8,943
....flexible? not the way i played.Lesifoere said:
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