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Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

decaf

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I doubt devs are good at narratives either.

Look at Bioware's dialogue system: restricted to 4 choices, characters not saying what the text implies they would, false "choices" that lead to the same results, non-reactive world, sucky plot. An ancient evil awakens!

IIRC, the only dialog system we have today is the same multiple-choice format we had since forever. No more parsers, no keyword systems, no weird icon-dragging. Where's the innovation gone?
 

GarfunkeL

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If you all want another D&D game, go out and make KotC a million seller. Doesn't at all have to be another 20 million Skyrim, just make it a million-er. Hell, if you got its numbers up to even half a mil, the industry would come sniffing around right quick, because they can smell when there's real money to be made.

How could it possibly sell that well when the developer won't put it on Steam? No game will ever sell a million copies if the only way to purchase it is off some Web 1.0 Geocities backwater site that belongs in the 90s. Old school CRPG gameplay is well and good, but your distribution platform should at least keep up with the times if you want to have any sort of credibility. Cleve had the right idea to take advantage of Steam's Greenlit while it still exists; KotC should do the same.
Way to miss his point. Excidium II proved the point Telengard was making and did it quite succinctly:

"KOTC was banal shit boring"

Telengard pointed out the hypocrisy of many Codexers, self-identified hardcore RPG nerds, who did not buy KotC. It was widely praised here and a number of Codexers did buy it - but if such a game can not even find commercial success among Codexers, then it has zero fucking chance among the mainstream regardless whether it's on Steam or not. Yet the same faggots make up fantastic conspiracy theories of SJWs controlling game studios or publishers, instead of admitting that they want AAA-graphics and voice acting and emotional engagement, as proven by the fact that they bought and played Bioware games. Somebody post that link of the Codex Steam group where everyone is playing Fallout 4.
 
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I doubt devs are good at narratives either.

Look at Bioware's dialogue system: restricted to 4 choices, characters not saying what the text implies they would, false "choices" that lead to the same results, non-reactive world, sucky plot. An ancient evil awakens!

IIRC, the only dialog system we have today is the same multiple-choice format we had since forever. No more parsers, no keyword systems, no weird icon-dragging. Where's the innovation gone?

Hold on. Let’s stop for a minute. To divide everything in terms of combat or narrative, as if narrative included everything else, is misleading. Skill/stat checks, inside and out of dialogues, are fantastic, and they are not narrative. Multiple choices, especially moral ones that allow you to behave in different ways, is great. There is a bunch of games that did this right. So just because we have a bunch of verborraic games that pretend to be profound novels focused on your choices (but are linear!) it doesn’t follow that everything that is not combat is detrimental to combat or has to go.
 
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Lurker King

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Telengard pointed out the hypocrisy of many Codexers, self-identified hardcore RPG nerds, who did not buy KotC. It was widely praised here and a number of Codexers did buy it - but if such a game can not even find commercial success among Codexers, then it has zero fucking chance among the mainstream regardless whether it's on Steam or not. Yet the same faggots make up fantastic conspiracy theories of SJWs controlling game studios or publishers, instead of admitting that they want AAA-graphics and voice acting and emotional engagement, as proven by the fact that they bought and played Bioware games. Somebody post that link of the Codex Steam group where everyone is playing Fallout 4.

This. Underrail sold less than 100k. Let’s suppose it sold 70k, and each player bought one unit – I know some people bought more than one unit, but most didn’t. If every player bought three units to support Styg, and they would be still spending less than they already do when they buy ToN, Tyranny, or DA:I, it would have sold 210 thousand units, which is much better. If you tell them that, they will say they have no obligation to support them or whatever edgy nonsense that first crosses the mind. What lesson should decent developers learn from this? Don’t sacrifice yourself making engrossing cRPGs. It’s not worth it. Streamline your games because that is what "grognards" really want despite their self-righteous talk.
 

FeelTheRads

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Worst is that not only do they buy garbage like F4, Skyrim or Mass Effect they are actually proud about it and keep parroting that old "everyone here is playing it anyway, they just won't admit it" line, because obviously if their taste is shit then everyone's else is too.
 

valcik

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.. Tim said the problem was actually only with the writing.
Nah. He also acknowledged that the first location was too big, and further he mentioned that creating carbon copy of Gary's module was not the best decision since many co-workers liked his own dungeon much more.
 

existential_vacuum

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And yet we still can't define RPGs.
Why, yes. That is because it is difficult to operate with numbers and letters. But if we use geometric representation, defining RPG is really easy:
rpg.png

That's right. RPG is a triangle!
:happytrollboy:

EDIT: fixed image hosting fuckery
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
The only trap in Fallout was not going high Agility.

If there is only one sensible choice then all other options are traps.

This triggers me. Why do you assume that a greenhorn wimp from an isolated vault/backwater village should have access to advanced military weaponry?
It was actually perfect design, that energy weapons were rare, valuable and only available late. I hate how F3/FNV equalized energy weapons with ballistics, barring a few perks, destroying any uniqueness and charm they have had.

Because prior to starting the game you have no idea when will you get one or how useful they are.
 

MRY

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I don’t know if you are right about LucasArts model, but lets’ suppose that for the sake of argument. There are many reasons why the distillation of the essence of adventure games is easily achievable:

(1) First, you don’t need to play other adventure games to get acquainted with a new adventure game, but you need to play other cRPGs, or at least have a notion of what is character building, to get into a cRPG.

(2) The puzzle elements of an adventure game are easily presentable, the use of skills and stats in cRPGs are widespread in a bigger game world; build combinations are not always intuitive, etc.

This explains why adventure game puzzles have a low entry bar, but complex character building is a high entry bar.
I disagree, at least in part.

First, I think you are underestimating the degree to which adventure games presuppose some basic understanding of the genre -- as basic as the idea that you should take items because they can be taken, or that there is a distinction between a "use" and an "examine" button, or that clues might be embedded in unsuccessful usages, etc. I say this from having read a bazillion Primordia player reviews and having watched dozens of Let's Plays of the game. Bear in mind that Primordia is a very retro-looking adventure game without any meaningful marketing, so the players should skew toward the experienced end of the adventure gamer demographic. Among things I observed in non-trivial numbers: (1) players who did not realize they could examine items by right clicking for the entire length of the game; (2) players who believed the game required you to "write down everything" even though there is an in-game notepad that records every number and piece of information you gather; (3) players who defaulted to using every item on every other item rather than even attempting a solution, and then complained the game had too many items (at most you had like 12 in your inventory); (4) players who couldn't find the options menu, even though it was in the toolbar; (5) players who couldn't find the toolbar; (6) players who couldn't find exits from rooms. I take these to be failures on my part, but the heart of the failure was assuming that the basic toolset of the 90s adventure gamer is still in use.

Basically, adventure games require you to know certain premises (to look carefully for items in every room; to take every item you can; to assume that a locked door implies a necessary key; to assume that the lack of a key implies the use of a nonstandard item; etc.). You can learn those by playing, but you do have to learn them. The fact that modern "adventure games" tend to have inventories that max out at five items, puzzles that go no farther than "use A on B," etc., is both a cause and an effect of this process.

Second, I think you're maybe underestimating the difficulty of good puzzle design (and the skill set that goes to solving good puzzles), since there have basically been at most five or six good puzzles in the past ~20 years. Even the "real" adventure games (like, say, Primordia) aren't remotely comparable to Lucas or Sierra games in terms of the complexity of their puzzles; it's just that to a dilettante adventure players, they more or less fit the form, the same way that the RPGs that annoy you satisfy the dilettante RPG player.
 

SionIV

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I don’t know if you are right about LucasArts model, but lets’ suppose that for the sake of argument. There are many reasons why the distillation of the essence of adventure games is easily achievable:

(1) First, you don’t need to play other adventure games to get acquainted with a new adventure game, but you need to play other cRPGs, or at least have a notion of what is character building, to get into a cRPG.

(2) The puzzle elements of an adventure game are easily presentable, the use of skills and stats in cRPGs are widespread in a bigger game world; build combinations are not always intuitive, etc.

This explains why adventure game puzzles have a low entry bar, but complex character building is a high entry bar.
I disagree, at least in part.

First, I think you are underestimating the degree to which adventure games presuppose some basic understanding of the genre -- as basic as the idea that you should take items because they can be taken, or that there is a distinction between a "use" and an "examine" button, or that clues might be embedded in unsuccessful usages, etc. I say this from having read a bazillion Primordia player reviews and having watched dozens of Let's Plays of the game. Bear in mind that Primordia is a very retro-looking adventure game without any meaningful marketing, so the players should skew toward the experienced end of the adventure gamer demographic. Among things I observed in non-trivial numbers: (1) players who did not realize they could examine items by right clicking for the entire length of the game; (2) players who believed the game required you to "write down everything" even though there is an in-game notepad that records every number and piece of information you gather; (3) players who defaulted to using every item on every other item rather than even attempting a solution, and then complained the game had too many items (at most you had like 12 in your inventory); (4) players who couldn't find the options menu, even though it was in the toolbar; (5) players who couldn't find the toolbar; (6) players who couldn't find exits from rooms. I take these to be failures on my part, but the heart of the failure was assuming that the basic toolset of the 90s adventure gamer is still in use.

Basically, adventure games require you to know certain premises (to look carefully for items in every room; to take every item you can; to assume that a locked door implies a necessary key; to assume that the lack of a key implies the use of a nonstandard item; etc.). You can learn those by playing, but you do have to learn them. The fact that modern "adventure games" tend to have inventories that max out at five items, puzzles that go no farther than "use A on B," etc., is both a cause and an effect of this process.

Second, I think you're maybe underestimating the difficulty of good puzzle design (and the skill set that goes to solving good puzzles), since there have basically been at most five or six good puzzles in the past ~20 years. Even the "real" adventure games (like, say, Primordia) aren't remotely comparable to Lucas or Sierra games in terms of the complexity of their puzzles; it's just that to a dilettante adventure players, they more or less fit the form, the same way that the RPGs that annoy you satisfy the dilettante RPG player.

Can't agree more with this. I've had more challenges with adventure games than I ever did with RPG's. Don't underestimate the difficulty of adventure games, especially when you couldn't look up a walkthrough.
 

J_C

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(4) players who couldn't find the options menu, even though it was in the toolbar; (5) players who couldn't find the toolbar; (6) players who couldn't find exits from rooms. I take these to be failures on my part,
You assumed that your players have a functioning brain?
 

MRY

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(4) players who couldn't find the options menu, even though it was in the toolbar; (5) players who couldn't find the toolbar; (6) players who couldn't find exits from rooms. I take these to be failures on my part,
You assumed that your players have a functioning brain?
Well, the thing is, when you put me on a system with an alien UI -- whether the new Windows system or a N64 -- I'm basically at a loss too. I think what I overestimated was the degree to which the 90s UI remained a universal language, as opposed to an at-best "lingua franca" that many know but not all.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
You can't cater to them all. Just because low intelligent retards might play your game, you don't have to cater or design your game for them. It's not like those handicap ramps to hospitals since gaming is entertainment and not essential. No, I'm not saying handicapped people are retarded, just that if you have problem finding a menu then you might not have the mental capacity to play adventure games or any game for that matter.

This dumbing down is just making everyone dumber, not helping gaming in any way in the long run.
 
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undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
For what its worth:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92...better-rpg-seven-mistakes-to-avoid/?p=1907735

Tim Cain said:
I think I need to clear up a misunderstanding. I never said in my talk that I disliked complex systems, just the presentation of such systems in the first few minutes of the game, i.e. character creation. I am all for complex rule systems, but I want to reduce the learning curve to understand them. If you already understand them, then you can jump right into them after character creation.
 

TimCain

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Wow, long thread. I will admit I don't have time to read it all, but let me say this. I think there has been a misunderstanding of my talk. I never said I don't like complex systems, just that I don't like the presentation of so much complexity in the first few minutes of the game, like in character creation. We lost a lot of potential players to that. That isn't hypothetical. I have emails and reviews to back me up.

Think of an RPG like a mountain. In my older RPG's, the only way to the top was going up cliffs, but many of you like rock climbing so it didn't matter. But a lot of people never even tried to do it. So I am building a road that lets people drive to the top of the mountain. The mountain is still as high as it used to be and the view is just as spectacular, but now more people can enjoy it.

There is so much misunderstanding on this thread, but I know you are smart and RPG-savvy people. That makes me think my first point of the talk is even more relevant: the need to reduce the learning slope to introduce something new. In other words, I think I need to simplify my talk.

Anyway, it took 30 hours on three flights to get back to Los Angeles from Croatia, so I am operating with severe jet lag. I will try to explain this more later.
 

TimCain

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Think of an RPG like a mountain. In my older RPG's, the only way to the top was going up cliffs, but many of you like rock climbing so it didn't matter. But a lot of people never even tried to do it. So I am building a road that lets people drive to the top of the mountain. The mountain is still as high as it used to be and the view is just as spectacular, but now more people can enjoy it.

Oh, and you can still rock climb. One of my designers wants to add a "look under the hood" button to character creation, to expose the numbers. We will explore that option.
 

Mustawd

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Wow, long thread. I will admit I don't have time to read it all, but let me say this. I think there has been a misunderstanding of my talk. I never said I don't like complex systems, just that I don't like the presentation of so much complexity in the first few minutes of the game, like in character creation. We lost a lot of potential players to that. That isn't hypothetical. I have emails and reviews to back me up.

Think of an RPG like a mountain. In my older RPG's, the only way to the top was going up cliffs, but many of you like rock climbing so it didn't matter. But a lot of people never even tried to do it. So I am building a road that lets people drive to the top of the mountain. The mountain is still as high as it used to be and the view is just as spectacular, but now more people can enjoy it.

There is so much misunderstanding on this thread, but I know you are smart and RPG-savvy people. That makes me think my first point of the talk is even more relevant: the need to reduce the learning slope to introduce something new. In other words, I think I need to simplify my talk.

Anyway, it took 30 hours on three flights to get back to Los Angeles from Croatia, so I am operating with severe jet lag. I will try to explain this more later.


TL;DR Easy to pick up hard to master? Or am I reading into what you're trying to say?
 

MRY

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While I totally agree with Tim's sentiment, I still feel like I can't pass up the easy jab of:
untitled-article-1429301082.jpg

Why mountain climbers might be worried.
 

Infinitron

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TimCain Can you tell us what in that talk was actually relevant to the game and what was just general discourse? What does it mean to always hit enemies on your first try if you have to aim at them using player skill? And the non-repeating "randomness" stuff, is that something that's planned for the game?
 

SionIV

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Wow, long thread. I will admit I don't have time to read it all, but let me say this. I think there has been a misunderstanding of my talk. I never said I don't like complex systems, just that I don't like the presentation of so much complexity in the first few minutes of the game, like in character creation. We lost a lot of potential players to that. That isn't hypothetical. I have emails and reviews to back me up.

Think of an RPG like a mountain. In my older RPG's, the only way to the top was going up cliffs, but many of you like rock climbing so it didn't matter. But a lot of people never even tried to do it. So I am building a road that lets people drive to the top of the mountain. The mountain is still as high as it used to be and the view is just as spectacular, but now more people can enjoy it.

There is so much misunderstanding on this thread, but I know you are smart and RPG-savvy people. That makes me think my first point of the talk is even more relevant: the need to reduce the learning slope to introduce something new. In other words, I think I need to simplify my talk.

Anyway, it took 30 hours on three flights to get back to Los Angeles from Croatia, so I am operating with severe jet lag. I will try to explain this more later.

Mistake #1 - Steep Learning Curves: Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex.

Those were the games I grew up with during my childhood, and I adored that character creation. You don't think that belongs in 2017?
 

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