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Helherron - a very addictive Nahlakh-like game

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
At what point can you kill wandering merchants? I'm more than halfway through and easily clearing dungeons using quick combat, but merchants just rape me at this point.

Couple annoying things I would like to point out.
1.numbad enter doesn't work when searching/looting barrels. I have one hand pressing s to search and y to yes (if there is only item to pick), and one hand on numbad to move and choose search directions. But if a barrel contains two or more items, I need to press enter which means moving my hand which means annoying delay.
2.lock picking. It takes about ten shift+p plus direction commands to open a chest and there are always about 5 locked chests in a treasure room. It gets old really fast. Maybe some easier system for this?

Sorry I am using my phone and can't be arsed to explain more properly at this time.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
At what point can you kill wandering merchants? I'm more than halfway through and easily clearing dungeons using quick combat, but merchants just rape me at this point.[..]

From the point when you find any Ice Ball spellbook or any area ice spell. Cast it on the guards and have preferably several of them turned into ice. Then either shoot or hit them to make them explode into thousands of ice splinters. With a lower level party you can try to mob the guards, concentrating all your attacks on one, but that usually will result one guard massacring your fighters.

Best solution is to either summon something to take the hits, until you can use the Ice spellbook again on the other guards too. The merchant is usually tough too, so he needs to be iced as well.

Good gear and magic weapons make these tough guards killable late game, but by then its much simpler to ice them with higher level spells. :)

Best weapons are GOD WEAPONS. Find those in dungeon treasure rooms, but best at the Castle store, near the city centre, left to the castle are two shops. One usually has nicely changing inventory, spawning new items in a couple of days.

I usually did such Power Weapon & Gear hunts by checking the shop inventory, then traveling outside to the main road and doing couple of Merchant Hunt rounds - consisting of running up and down on straight stretches of roads to see if any encountered Merchant has some valuable items. Days passed, Castle-shop inventory changed..

Then I went back to the shops. If there was a God Weapon or God Armor (IIRC) which usually cost large amounts of money, I immediately attacked the shopkeeper: WARNING!! The shopkeeper will summon Über-Powerful guards! But by now you should be able to ICE them :D. The exploit was that I memorized the EXACT SPOT, where the shopkeeper died by my hand, and I kept standing before that spot and attacked his "ghost" and killing him and looting him repeatedly, taking those God Weapons again and again and selling them at other castle stores. Attack-loot-sell-repeat and you'll have enough money to take to the super-expensive Master Enchanter and the Master Trainer to train your skills to high level and enchant your gear to +5 or Forge "Super Enchanted" items with the powers you select. :D Even with this exploit the game was hard. But Antti changed the new windows version of the game a lot. So if he is reading this, he might decide to close this amazing exploit. :)

MAKE SURE THE GUARDS DON'T SEE YOU ATTACKING CITIZENS!

Sometimes of course the guards noticed that I was wringing the neck of the shopkeeper and a Cat & Mouse game ensued. When I was able to evade the guards and flee the city, they probably forgot my crime in a couple of days, IIRC. ((Couple of times IIRC i was thrown into jail, but maybe my memory fails at this detail. But I think I remember it being fun to Pick the Jail Lock and escape. :D))
 
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Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
Can a nice person gimme the skinny on this game real quick?

TB RPG where you create a party of 8 (good chargen). Random encounters on world map with fixed encounters in dungeons. Randomized shops. Lots of different spells and items. It reminds me of Kings Bounty in a way, where the combats can be difficult and you have to probe around sometimes for a fight you can beat, then use the stuff you gain to win the next fight, etc. Nice itemization, always feel like there's a new useful item just around the corner. There's lots of ways to creatively use the spells and items in the game to flip battles in your favor.

On the negative side- story, writing and graphics are minimal, and there isn't too much variety in enemy attacks. Combats are TB with lots of enemies which can take a long time to get through. chardev is pretty sparse. There appears to be many bugs but game is quite playable.

I'm enjoying it, the game really is very addictive.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Wandering Merchant Bug:
[..]one major bug is that the game crashes every time I try to buy something from a wandering merchant. this really sucks because they have great stuff sometimes.

Created another party with members from all races now and bought cheap items from wandering merchants successfully with each race to check if the bug is race specific. However when talking to a merchant and changing to my inventory to un-equip items so I can sell them:
keypresses of "s" which should sell stuff to the merchant or at least display the merchant saying to my selected inventory item:
- "I don't want to buy this" ==> causes CTD "Helherron.exe stopped working... Close the program"

Every time, even one "s" keypress crashes the game. Sometimes multiple "." keypresses crash the game. IIRC the Linux version didn't have these bugs. The "." key normally selects the next party member and lastly the merchant, so its the active trading group member select key. Win7, Game version 2.102 HOTFIX.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Wandering Merchant Bug:
[..]one major bug is that the game crashes every time I try to buy something from a wandering merchant. this really sucks because they have great stuff sometimes.

Created another party with members from all races now and bought cheap items from wandering merchants successfully with each race to check if the bug is race specific. However when talking to a merchant and changing to my inventory to un-equip items so I can sell them:
keypresses of "s" which should sell stuff to the merchant or at least display the merchant saying to my selected inventory item:
- "I don't want to buy this" ==> causes CTD "Helherron.exe stopped working... Close the program"

Every time, even one "s" keypress crashes the game. Sometimes multiple "." keypresses crash the game. IIRC the Linux version didn't have these bugs. The "." key normally selects the next party member and lastly the merchant, so its the active trading group member select key. Win7, Game version 2.102 HOTFIX.

Thanks, will have a look at this.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
I'm having this weird issue where enter keys don't work in Options, Race, Class, "accept this character and go forward" and plot introduction ("isle is in chaos", etc.) screens unless I turn off numlock. On naming screens and in the main menu enter works with and without numlock. Numpad/arrow navigation is otherwise fine no matter whether numlock is on or off too, same with all the other keys. With numlcock on I can progress through most of these screens using spacebar, except for the character confirmation screen. Don't know yet about the rest of the game. Had the same happen with Bludgeons & Krakens (IIRC the enter key didn't work in all places there; took me ages to figure out why I couldn't progress past the main menu back then), but otherwise never encountered nor heard of something like this.

win7, 32bit, laptop with a full keyboard (not excluding the possibility of the main enter and the numpad one being lazily linked and it being the cause, but for thousands of programs I've launched on this machine only this game and B&K act like this).

Edit: Also happens in the old 2.04 version linked somewhere in this thread.

Thanks! There were some cases where numpad enter was not equal to the main Enter key. Should be now fixed (in 2.103 which is available soon).
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Is there some trick to finding the dwarven temple that I've forgotten? Started a new game on the new version and I'm searching right where it was (and everywhere else, for that matter) and not getting anything. Have the quest from the guard captain.
Did you walk around one step south of between Odreworld and Goblin cave back and forth a couple times?

You need to download the 2.102 HOTFIX version to get to the dwarven temple. It is unfortunately broken in the original 2.102.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Gunnar, could you possible send me your save game files? I really want to fix this bug so I'd like to first check if the item at least exists somewhere. If yes, I can restore your items.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
From the point when you find any Ice Ball spellbook or any area ice spell. Cast it on the guards and have preferably several of them turned into ice. Then either shoot or hit them to make them explode into thousands of ice splinters. With a lower level party you can try to mob the guards, concentrating all your attacks on one, but that usually will result one guard massacring your fighters.

Best solution is to either summon something to take the hits, until you can use the Ice spellbook again on the other guards too. The merchant is usually tough too, so he needs to be iced as well.

Good gear and magic weapons make these tough guards killable late game, but by then its much simpler to ice them with higher level spells. :)

I just tried ice spells. Cold ball x5 made the guards slightly wounded. But before I could move two guard archers shot my 370hp 57AC golem to death and one guard almost killed my fighter in one sword swing. So I guess we are playing different game?

Fake edit: Just realized that I haven't bought or enchanted any gear so maybe your chars have better AC and DB.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
From the point when you find any Ice Ball spellbook or any area ice spell. Cast it on the guards and have preferably several of them turned into ice. Then either shoot or hit them to make them explode into thousands of ice splinters. With a lower level party you can try to mob the guards, concentrating all your attacks on one, but that usually will result one guard massacring your fighters.

Best solution is to either summon something to take the hits, until you can use the Ice spellbook again on the other guards too. The merchant is usually tough too, so he needs to be iced as well.

Good gear and magic weapons make these tough guards killable late game, but by then its much simpler to ice them with higher level spells. :)

I just tried ice spells. Cold ball x5 made the guards slightly wounded. But before I could move two guard archers shot my 370hp 57AC golem to death and one guard almost killed my fighter in one sword swing. So I guess we are playing different game?

Fake edit: Just realized that I haven't bought or enchanted any gear so maybe your chars have better AC and DB.

Blizzard then, that works for sure: purchase the first book, grab the others by force. :) At lower level book-casting is a solution vs. casting from memory by skill.

You might be right in needing stronger ICE type spells. IIRC, any living creature had some resistance buffer against ice - Or simply lower level Ice spells have less chance to Freeze? Maybe when the victim was cooled down enough, it froze solid. (?) Do I remember this correctly or Ice Ball is not strong enough - has low chance to freeze - and is just an area damage spell without the amazing Freeze Everything It Hits capabilities of the spell BLIZZARD.


ICE EFFECT INVESTIGATION:
Thanks to the author of the amazing self containing Helherron Massive Original Help: helherron_edited.zip, I checked the mage spells and IIRC, (it was more than 10 years ago I beat the game 3x times), the Hard Spell Difficulty ice spell Cold Ball *_might_* freeze enemies, when they are shot with it multiple times so their cold "resistance_buffer" is blown away / depleted? But the Very Hard Spell Difficulty Ice Storm probably can freeze enemies and at this same level the super amazing BLIZZARD can surely freeze enemies with high chances.

Blizzard cannot be cast from memory by the mage until late game(needs high skill), BUT early game you can meet merchants selling Blizzard spell books, which was often the sole reason that any merchant carrying the Blizzard books died, as soon as I got my grubby hands on the 1st Blizzard spell book ingame from a dungeon loot or a purchase. After a couple of fights and getting clever, I realized that difficult monsters in dungeons die very well from the book-cast version of BLIZZARD, so I shouldn't waste the books on them, but on the merchants, thus creating an inexhaustible source of BLIZZARD spell books. :D :D :D Basically freeze any unbeatable enemy and splinter them to tiny ice particles with normal weapon hits or bows/crossbows. Thus Blizzard became the Ultimate Game Changer.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
Gunnar, could you possible send me your save game files? I really want to fix this bug so I'd like to first check if the item at least exists somewhere. If yes, I can restore your items.

Sure, where should I send it?
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
I'm currently genociding the Birdman race and wow are these mages annoying with their summon monster spell; each one can summon 2 monsters and there are like 6 of them in the mobs. If they appear offscreen, like around a corner or something, they'll just spam that spell over and over clogging everything up and making the battles take forever. It gets even more crazy if you do it back to them :D. Totally worth it though, this place is full of magic books and I got an awesome weapon.

Right now facing off against the bird king and I have to turtle up in the corner to avoid being completely surrounded by summoned monsters.

One question, does anyone give you a quest to kill these guys? I spoke to an NPC who mentioned it would be nice if someone wiped them out but I didn't get a quest for it.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Yeah, maybe I should make them actively seek targets, like move until there is 1 movement point left and only then summon if they still can't detect any targets.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Yeah, maybe I should make them actively seek targets, like move until there is 1 movement point left and only then summon if they still can't detect any targets.
Develop a Loot System for Thieves, in which all NPCs, town and village people and important NPCs carry money, jewelry, valuable items in their pockets or on themselves. Dagger type examples to implement:
+ Gold, Silver, Diamond-encrusted, Opal Stone[magic], Runed[magic] daggers
+ Lockpicks and Super-Lockpicks[Skeleton key], [chest or basement] keys for hard-to-pick locks
+ Portal Stone of Rescue to teleport out of difficult dungeons ==> into a country road on the surface
+ Black Portal Stone that when used: teleports directly to Prison Dungeons, which are very hard to escape from [no teleport out possible, just in..] but have valuable loot in the "Final Treasure Room"
+ Rarity balancing of all above: make the powerful items rare enough to feel like a true achievement (fun) and often enough for players to notice so word can get around in player circles.

Thieving, pickpocketing is extremely fun, thus will attract a LOTS OF COSTUMERS.

In Antharion for example even Sheep, chicken, children could be pickpocketed(don't remember for what, ah, give them wool == shear their wool to sell in shops), chicken-->eggs=food, children-->apples/sweets-->food.

Conscience is a no fun element in games for a Master Thief: Looting everything however easily becomes a race and reputation==>when your reputation gets high enough the Queen may summon you for an important and very Hush-hush secret series of Thieving quests, next quests in the series given when attaining higher LVL.

If word gets around that pickpocketing is Extremely Fun in Helherron, people will line up to buy your game. Notice the most successful games have lots of Gathering--Getting--Looting--Plundering--PickPocketing--Lockpicking elements, because that is the Nature of Man, to steal and cheat and GET everything, because nothing is enough!!

Why deny people great fun and yourself of considerable retirement revenue?

Note:
Antharion's Steam Rating has been downgraded by people, because the finished game was 'abandoned' by developers in the eye of people, so that's why a "mixed" rating of an otherwise excellent game, which undeniably borrowed features from Helherron!
 
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mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Move Planner ~
Battlefield Move Points Measurement Indicator for the Look feature

Looking around the battlefield should show the remaining Movement points - distance from the player in Move point cost at Look-Cursor -, how much move points left at the exact spot, where the player is looking. Good for planning backstabs with thieves and to plan, where to move with the warriors.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Show battle log: Shortcut please to show the past 10 battle events in the battle, appearing below in the text area, best would be scrollable. To review what happened. If my fighter was hit, currently there is only a sound played - the 1 line event report is frequently missed, especially when watching the action - so I can't review what happened exactly. Checking status is the only way currently.
 
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mercyRPG

Cipher
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
At what point can you kill wandering merchants?[..]
Checked for you the very simple "beginner level" Cold Dart spell: When i cast it with very high magic skill - in the 160s - with 3x Magic point usage, it immediately freezes a goblin solid, so it breaks into tiny ice splinters later.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
Bird king has been vanquished. I ended up using a Lighting wand to zap him to death and a Boiling Blood wand (which hits ALL enemies) to wipe out the army of summoned monsters. It felt kind of cheap, but eh. The world can rest easy now that the Birdman menace has been eliminated. (?)

In the Castle I visited the largest, emptiest wine cellar in the world. Seriously, why is this area so big? (Yes, I finished the quest here)

Went for my first boat ride, can't believe the gameworld is even bigger than I initially thought. Exciting! First stop was a fort where I picked up several suits of full plate armor, providing a big boost to AC. Started exploring and found a Centaur hideout. These guys are the next race to be purged! So far I have fought my way to the gate of some sort of settlement.

I must say that the combat is starting to become a bit wearying. Each enemy type seems to just be a bigger bag of HP that hits harder. I wish they would change it up a bit and do some things I haven't seen before. As it stands only mages are still interesting because they can utilize some of the vast spell library the game offers.

Question, is there any benefit to using racial arms, like decking my elf out in all elven equipment?

Show battle log: Shortcut please to show the past 10 battle events in the battle, appearing below in the text area, best would be scrollable. To review what happened. If my fighter was hit, currently there is only a sound played - the 1 line event report is frequently missed, especially when watching the action - so I can't review what happened exactly. Checking status is the only way currently.

Yes! A battle log would be very welcome. Even if it was a small one, say showing the last 3 actions, would be a vast improvement.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
I must say that the combat is starting to become a bit wearying. Each enemy type seems to just be a bigger bag of HP that hits harder. I wish they would change it up a bit and do some things I haven't seen before. As it stands only mages are still interesting because they can utilize some of the vast spell library the game offers.

I know, this is something I want to improve when I have the time. The new AI scripting system makes it achievable.

I wouldn't do centaurs after birdmen. There's the frogmen, ratmen, magical forest, shroom men, etc.
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
Man...this is weird. I have so adamantly refused to 'upgrade' from Windows XP as my OS because games like Helherron (2.04 and earlier) did not run on modern Windows and now I may be forced to upgrade to crappy modern Windows OS to play Helherron.
Didn't he release a 32-bit version? Shouldn't that version work?


He did but it does not work with Windows XP and he no longer programs for Linux so I can't even use my Linux mint dual boot crap.
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
Would you con sider opening access to the graphics so they can be edited?

v2. 04 HELHERRON GRAPHICS MOD INSTRUCTIONS (c) SkeleTony

If you created graphics as per SkeleTony's instructions and they are just as good as the icon pack below, just send it to Antti or wait for his feedback, because Antti updated the graphics DAT format, its no longer PCX!:

ji3JpG5.jpg

This is the icon pack SkeleTony created for Helherron.

((IIRC there were more of these amazing creations 6 yrs ago.))


Yeah I still have more of these...somewhere. And I have been working on updating the race/class pics but I keep getting distracted by other matters and my motivation is somewhat lacking since I will have to get a new PC or laptop set up just to play the game now.
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
One feature that would be nice to have is replacing individual characters of your party after you've already started playing. Or am I just not finding it?

Nahlakh had it, I assume Natuk and PoWS did too, gold box games had it. (and I wonder whether Wizard's Crown/Eternal Dagger had it too...)


I do not know about the newest versions but IIRC in 2.04 you could 'ctrl+i' to select a new icon.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I think he means replacing your characters as a whole not just the icon?
 

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