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I just finished Wizardry 1

Nutmeg

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I think player performance in Wizardry 1 is too dependent on RNG.

Wizardry 1 consists of a city --- Llylgamyn, it's outskirts, and a maze. Llylgamyn itself consists of an inn where characters can level up and rest, a shop where characters can purchase and sell goods, a tavern where characters can be equipped, inspected, and added or removed from the party, and a temple where characters may be revived or cured from paralysis. In the city outskirts the player may send his current party into the maze, create, update or delete characters, or elect to take control of party already in the maze.

The objective of the game is to retrieve a "fabled amulet" from the clutches of the wizard Werdna, who lives in a "ten level fortress maze" beneath the castle of Llylgamyn. This is done in a simple sequence. First, the player must find the elevator on the 1st floor and take it down to the 4th floor --- the bottom most floor accessible by this elevator. Then, on the 4th floor, the player must emerge victorious in a set encounter against a party consisting of mages, priests, fighters and a high level ninja. This grants access to a key item (the "blue ribbon") which in turn grants access to another "express service" elevator to the south of the first elevator. The player must then take this elevator to the 9th floor --- bottom most for this second elevator --- and locate a chute nearby which takes them to the 10th floor. On this final floor the player must survive at least 6 random encounters, before fighting the end game boss Werdna. After defeating Werdna, the player can use Werdna's amulet or their own spell points to teleport back to the castle and claim victory.

Characters are defined by 6 "statistics" --- strength, iq, piety, vitality, agility and luck --- as well as a race, a class (with level), an alignment, (mage and priest) spell books, and age.

Strength affects:
  • Hit probability
  • Damage
IQ and piety affect :
  • Probability to learn a mage or priest spell on level up (mage and priest only)
  • Probability of identifying monsters
Vitality affects:
  • Starting hit points
  • Resurrection probability
  • Minimum hit points gained on level
Agility affects:
  • Turn order
  • Probability to identify traps
  • Probability to disarm traps
  • Probability to
Luck affects:
  • Resistances
The statistics do not affect anything else.

Race affects:
  • Base statistics
  • Resistances
There are 8 classes: Fighter, mage, priest, thief, bishop, samurai, lord and ninja.

Class (level) affects:
  • Which spells may be learned (for priest spells: priest > bishop = lord, for mage spells: mage > bishop > samurai)
  • Bonus spell points
  • Starting hit points (samurai > fighter = lord > priest > thief = ninja = bishop > mage)
  • Range of hit points gained per level (fighter = lord > priest = samurai > thief = ninja = bishop > mage)
  • Amount of attacks (ninja > fighter = samurai = lord > thief = mage = priest = bishop)
  • Hit probability (fighter = priest = samurai = lord = ninja > thief = mage = bishop)
  • Resistances
  • Trap effects
  • Probability to identify and disarm traps (thief > ninja > fighter = priest = mage = bishop = lord = samurai)
  • What may be equipped
  • Actions (only bishops may identify items)
Characters may change classes at any time, providing they meet the requirements for that class.

Allignment affects:
  • Which class a character may be
  • What may be equipped
  • Wether the character may be added to the party in the tavern (good characters cannot be added to parties with evil characters and vice versa)
Lastly, age affects the probability of statistics changes and resurrection.

When creating a character, the player first selects the alignent, then the race, which determines the base statistics (as mentioned), then distributes bonus points to those statistics, and lastly chooses a class. The number of bonus points is:
(7 + (RANDOM 0 to 3)) with a 10% chance to add another 10 points as long as total points are below 20
which may be rerolled.

Statistics may not exceed 18. If a character has 18 in any one statistic, the game assigns a higher probability to that statistic dropping on level.

For all kinds of characters, agility, vitality and luck are important. It is worth rerolling bonus points to maximize these.

In combat, the first three characters are in the front row and can attack and be attacked, while the last three, in the back row, cannot.

Front row characters should either be able to soak up damage, like priests, or dish out damage by attacking like ninjas, or both like lords, fighters and samurai.

Mages, bishops and thieves should occupy the back row as these characters are vulnerable to attacks, and cannot deal much damage by attacking.

So, while some variation is possible in party composition, only a handful of compositions make sense. Most parties would look something like: samurai, lord, fighter (later reclassed to ninja), priest, mage (later reclassed to bishop), thief (later reclassed to bishop)

The effects of levelling up a character in a given a class is determined almost entirely randomly, but within the bounds set by the character's statistics, age and class.

Now, wizardry limits players to one save, but players may save anywhere, and players may restart from their last save if things go awry.

Players wishing to complete the game at a lower party level or with little real time spent are encouraged to save before levelling up and rerolling when not statisfied.

Similarly, encounter difficulty varies greatly. Even the strongest, most high level party will be wiped out completely if caught by surprise by gas giants, encouraging a restart at the last save. For the same reason, playing the game with an iron man restriction is not enjoyable, as ultimately the encounter slot machine far outweighs any planning and preparation on behalf of the player.

I give the game 4/10.
 

octavius

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Pfff! Wizardry 1 is the perfect game for Iron Man. The clue is to play it carefully and not be afraid of heading back to town when you start running short on spell points.

I played it Iron Man first time I played it a couple of years ago. I had two party deaths, one due to not paying attention to what a trap did and the second when Werdna cast a massive TILTOWAIT in the final battle. That second instance was the only time I reloaded.

Wizardry 1 is a very neat and balanced (unlike Wiz 2 which is too easy and Wiz 3 which nerfs your imported characters) design which is still fun to play. 7/10 at least.
 

Wayward Son

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This thread is destined for places. Retardo, but hey that's a place. Wiz 1 is a damn fine game and an exemplar of a blobber. The only blobber I'd rate higher personally is Might and Magic 1.
 

Eggs is eggs

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Wizardry 1 is essentially a mapping puzzle with combats but still a great game. At one point I would like to play through Wizardries 1, 2 and 3 and then attempt #4.

Is it necessary to upgrade most of your party members to the elite classes (Lord, Samurai, also convert your mages to clerics and vice-versa, etc.)? It just seems like it takes an inordinate amount of grinding to do so, though I guess most of the game was nothing but a grind anyway.

IIRC levels 5-9 had absolutely nothing on them (and no need to visit them either, due to the elevator), other than progressively more difficult monsters for the party to use to build up their characters and level 9 just has one point of interest: a chute to drop you to level 10. I wonder if they did this because of space limitations on the disc, or they ran out of ideas of stuff to add in?
 
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octavius

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Is it necessary to upgrade most of your party members to the elite classes (Lord, Samurai, also convert your mages to clerics and vice-versa, etc.)? It just seems like it takes an inordinate amount of grinding to do so, though I guess most of the game was nothing but a grind anyway.

It's not necessary in order to win, and it's not worth the grinding to get a Ninja. But it's worth getting a Lord or Ninja if you get the opportunity.

You can start with Samurais if you get a good roll. A Lord is not too hard to get during play. A Ninja is almost impossible without cheating with the DOS version, unless you get a certain item.
You can't convert mages to clerics, nor would you want to. You can convert them to Bishops, though. You can also start with Bishops, IIRC. Bishops are quite useful for ID'ing items.
 

Eggs is eggs

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Oh, I thought when you convert classes you keep your spells. So once you maxed out a mage or cleric, you could convert it to the other class and eventually get a spell caster with all the spells.

How does HP and other stats work when you change classes? I assume you keep your current HP total? I've seen videos on youtube of Wizardry characters with hundreds of HP. I assume that's how they get so much? Do Lords/Samurai get more HP or attacks than a fighter? A fighter who can cast low level mage/cleric spells doesn't seem all that useful.
 

octavius

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IIRC you keep the same stats and XP; only your class is changed. So none of the class change abuse of Wiz 6-7.
Samurais and Lords get Mage and Cleric spells respectively, and there are some items only they can use. Ninajs get Critical Hits, I think.

YouTube is Internet's retard magnet number 1. A large percentage of the wankers posting game videos seem to be inordinately proud of what they can do with grinding, save scumming and hex editing. Very rarely do you see people posting videos with normal characters, or post clever tactics. Instead it's so much mindless brute forcing.
 

ore clover

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This thread is destined for places. Retardo, but hey that's a place.
A mod could just merge it with the wizardry thread, maybe.

On the topic of class changes, I'm curious about thieves. If I change a thief to another class, do they lose their prowess in disarming chests? I was planning on just leaving my thief alone, but if he keeps the skill then I'd certainly try and get some other use out of him later on.
 

Eggs is eggs

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Thanks to this topic, I found my old Wiz 1 save file on an Apple II emulator and am playing it a bit. The pace of this game is SO SLOW. To heal your party you have to keep going in the dungeon, casting your heal spells, then going back to restore magic points, then go back in the dungeon and it can take 5 min just to get your party in good condition after an expedition. And on the Apple II version the page refreshes each time you do something. The game also doesn't have a "pool gold" option so you have to manually move money. I need to keep buying cure poison potions.

I would play the DOS version but the level upping is different in the two versions. The DOS version has a much higher chance (~33%) to lower a stat when you level up and on the Apple II version it's only about 11%. I don't know if it's a bug or was intended but it means your characters stats will be a lot lower and will take a longer time to get to the elite classes.

And is the inn supposed to be the money sink of the game? After a certain point, you have a ton of money and nothing to spend it on. So you can save time (real life time) by just healing there. But then I heard that it ages your characters too fast. So I'm not sure. Maybe it was just a game feature that was implemented poorly.
 
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Nutmeg

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I played it Iron Man first time I played it a couple of years ago. I had two party deaths, one due to not paying attention to what a trap did and the second when Werdna cast a massive TILTOWAIT in the final battle. That second instance was the only time I reloaded.
I approached Werdna with a fairly underleveled party (~10), with my bishop recently having dualed from a mage that did NOT yet learn MALOR or TILTOWAIT (or any 7th level spells). I saved right before the fight (derp) and had to reload twice. The third time my priest's MONTINO worked which made the whole affair trivial.

I also reloaded whenever getting surprised by nightstalkers and vampires and getting level drained. I reloaded a few times fairly early cause of poison but that was entirely avoidable and my fault.

To heal your party you have to keep going in the dungeon, casting your heal spells, then going back to restore magic points, then go back in the dungeon and it can take 5 min just to get your party in good condition after an expedition.

Yes this is actually my main complaint about the game. Same goes for identifying items and moving items from one character to another.

Oh, I thought when you convert classes you keep your spells. So once you maxed out a mage or cleric, you could convert it to the other class and eventually get a spell caster with all the spells.

How does HP and other stats work when you change classes? I assume you keep your current HP total? I've seen videos on youtube of Wizardry characters with hundreds of HP. I assume that's how they get so much? Do Lords/Samurai get more HP or attacks than a fighter? A fighter who can cast low level mage/cleric spells doesn't seem all that useful.
You keep HP and spell books (and one spell point per known spell), but not additional spell points. Additionaly you keep learning spells of that level.

HP is weird and the game seems to move your characters towards some expected value for that class level on level up. For example if you change class into mage with 100 HP, you will be gaining 1 HP per level until the expected value of the mage's HP for a character of that mage level and vitality exceeds your actual HP.

I guess something like a mage who knows at least one spell in each level reclassed to a priest who knows at least one spell in each level reclassed to a fighter till level 15 (for the HP) reclassed to a ninja would be pretty powerful. You'd only be missing the bonus spell points, the identify ability that bishops have, and the small advantage to trap identification and disarment probability that thieves have over ninjas.
 
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octavius

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HP is weird

IIRC the game recalcutales the entire HPs every time you level, so sometimes you get lots of HP, but next time you may only get 1 HP if you already have equal to or more than the recalculated HP.
It's a pretty neat anti savescumming measure.
 

Wayward Son

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So wait, people mentioned the save file and reloading a lot in this thread... THERES A FUCKING LOAD GAME BUTTON???
 

samuraigaiden

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I wasn't going to necro this thread, but since somebody else already did, let me just say I think people who savescum Wizardry 1 or who use auto-map software (or worse, get complete maps online!) are missing a large part of the experience. I'm sure it's been said before, cartography is fun and a big part of what makes this game and other games like it enjoyable. Wizardry 1 is grindy and punishing, but it's very playable even today. The feeling of always being an inch from total disaster is a big plus. Savescumming robs the player of this feeling and can easily turn an enjoyable, tense and exhilarating experience into a chore.
 

Tweed

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I wasn't going to necro this thread, but since somebody else already did, let me just say I think people who savescum Wizardry 1 or who use auto-map software (or worse, get complete maps online!) are missing a large part of the experience. I'm sure it's been said before, cartography is fun and a big part of what makes this game and other games like it enjoyable. Wizardry 1 is grindy and punishing, but it's very playable even today. The feeling of always being an inch from total disaster is a big plus. Savescumming robs the player of this feeling and can easily turn an enjoyable, tense and exhilarating experience into a chore.

I did all that stuff and still had a good time with Wiz 1. I like suffering as much as the next person, but I think I'm done with drawing my own maps where I don't have to or having to make a second party just to save the first one, provided they didn't teleport into solid rock.
 

Rincewind

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I wasn't going to necro this thread, but since somebody else already did, let me just say I think people who savescum Wizardry 1 or who use auto-map software (or worse, get complete maps online!) are missing a large part of the experience. I'm sure it's been said before, cartography is fun and a big part of what makes this game and other games like it enjoyable. Wizardry 1 is grindy and punishing, but it's very playable even today. The feeling of always being an inch from total disaster is a big plus. Savescumming robs the player of this feeling and can easily turn an enjoyable, tense and exhilarating experience into a chore.
Give this man an award, this is the correct way to approach the game. Also what Octavious said about playing it on Iron Man (or at least as much as you can manage).

Interesting to see how Dark Heart of Uukrul also implemented a similar anti-save scumming mechanics, then a more recent example would be Dungeon of Naheulbeuk that is hell-bent on conditioning you out of your old save scumming habits (quite successfully, I have to say).
 

Old Hans

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I wasn't going to necro this thread, but since somebody else already did, let me just say I think people who savescum Wizardry 1 or who use auto-map software (or worse, get complete maps online!) are missing a large part of the experience. I'm sure it's been said before, cartography is fun and a big part of what makes this game and other games like it enjoyable. Wizardry 1 is grindy and punishing, but it's very playable even today. The feeling of always being an inch from total disaster is a big plus. Savescumming robs the player of this feeling and can easily turn an enjoyable, tense and exhilarating experience into a chore.
Give this man an award, this is the correct way to approach the game. Also what Octavious said about playing it on Iron Man (or at least as much as you can manage).

Interesting to see how Dark Heart of Uukrul also implemented a similar anti-save scumming mechanics, then a more recent example would be Dungeon of Naheulbeuk that is hell-bent on conditioning you out of your old save scumming habits (quite successfully, I have to say).

if I remember correctly Dark Heart had safe rooms where you could save party progress or something, which I always thought was really cool.
 

Butter

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DHoU has sanctuaries where you can rest and backup your save. It auto-saves whenever you enter combat and whenever a character dies, and if you want to bitch out you have to reload your backup, potentially losing a lot of progress. It's a good system.
 

LarryTyphoid

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You beat Wizardry 1 without savescumming, eh? Alright, then, big guy, now you have to beat Wizardry 2 and 3 without savescumming. BTW, if you ever get your party wiped in those games, you can't create new characters, so you have to play Wizardry 1 all over again. Let's see how far you'll carry your principles.
 

v1rus

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You beat Wizardry 1 without savescumming, eh? Alright, then, big guy, now you have to beat Wizardry 2 and 3 without savescumming. BTW, if you ever get your party wiped in those games, you can't create new characters, so you have to play Wizardry 1 all over again. Let's see how far you'll carry your principles.

pikachu.jpg

should an ambitious guy pre-prepare a rescue party, transfering it as he progresses?
 

Rincewind

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Let's see how far you'll carry your principles.
It's not a principle. It's more fun for me that way, and Wizardry 1 was clearly designed for Iron Man style playing.

If a game isn't designed for that, or never reloading becomes a major hassle, I would just reload.
 
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LarryTyphoid

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should an ambitious guy pre-prepare a rescue party, transfering it as he progresses?
I'm assuming SirTec assumed for you to create a shitload of characters for Wiz1, getting all of them to nearly max level. Then you'll have a bunch of cannon fodder for your Wiz2 and 3 playthroughs. Wiz3 requiring at least two parties for completion supports this assumption. There's no fucking way you could get through Wiz2 and 3 without savescumming with only a single party unless you have godly luck. It's so easy to walk into a closet, get surprised by 8 ninjas or a dragon, and get several party members killed. Then even the costly resurrection process is a crapshoot that can result in permanent character deletion if you're unlucky.
It's not a principle. It's more fun to me that way, and the Wizardry 1 was clearly designed for Iron Man style playing.
Fair enough, but it seems like people who play the game ironman are a small minority of Wizardry's playerbase. Even back in the 80s, everyone backed up their saves from what I've been told - even hardcore Wizardryheads like aweigh.

It was only recently that I even thought of creating more than 6 characters in Wizardry - I've been so used to creating just a single party in later RPGs (including later Wizardry titles) that I took it for granted. If this really is the way Wizardry was intended to be played, however, then you think they would've mentioned it once in that 100 page manual.
 
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So much whining. Don't play the shit if you don't like it.

Game isn't even real iron man, there's no failure state. Just go rescue your party members.

Shieeeet.
 

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