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Knights of the Chalice - spell allocation and daily quotas?

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IncendiaryDevice

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Question 1:

After reaching level 2, my mage and priest got to pick some more spells from the pool of level 1 spells. However, when combat next came around I was still limited to the six spells I picked at level 1, the new selections weren't available and there were no arrows to suggest the new spells were simply off-screen and required scrolling to. Is there a hard limit of 6 spells per spell-level? Or am I missing something? Or what and what? If the mage learns a new spell but already has 6 slots taken is the spell lost? Can the priest learn spells?

Question 2:

During combat everything starts off ok, but a couple of rounds into the battle and the cleric and mage can suddenly no longer cast level 1 spells, like, they're only allowed to cast 2 or 3 spells per spell-level a day? Is the number related to character level or something? And why isn't this mentioned anywhere, either in the help section of the game or anywhere on the entire internet? Is it because the game is confusing me by having a large selection pool whereby your selections are merely creating a new secondary pool which you don't currently have full access to? Those numbers to the left of that screen, that means your daily max usage of spells from your chosen mini-pool, right? Where does the priest go in the UI to change out their current mini-pool to a different mini-pool and can the mage do this as well?
 

Serus

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If i understand you correctly you are missing the basic mechanics of the game. This game mechanics are based on 3rd edition D&D which means it is a "vancian" system (from Jack Vance - a fantasy/sf writer who used it in his fantasy books).
You need to "memorize" the spells you want to cast - from your pool of known spells, when resting - before you can cast them... and once cast they need to be re-memorized again (when resting at camp sites). This is the reason why you are limited to only a few spells before you run out of them and need to rest. This is also the reason why you can't "see" the new spells. What level up did is add a new level 1 slot (iirc) to memorize spells and allows you to learn new spells - but you still need to memorize one to cast it in battle. You will get a level 2 spell slot at level 3 iirc.
 

Projas

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Question 1:
Did you rest? I think you need to rest. It's been a while since I played it.
Question 2:
They both work like sorcerers. No spell memorization, you pick spells on level up and you can cast certain number of spells of each level per day. How many spell you can cast is determined by level and I think int or some other attribute.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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If i understand you correctly you are missing the basic mechanics of the game. This game mechanics are based on 3rd edition D&D which means it is a "vancian" system (from Jack Vance - a fantasy/sf writer who used it in his fantasy books).
You need to "memorize" the spells you want to cast - from your pool of known spells, when resting - before you can cast them... and once cast they need to be re-memorized again (when resting at camp sites). This is the reason why you are limited to only a few spells before you run out of them and need to rest. This is also the reason why you can't "see" the new spells. What level up did is add a new level 1 slot (iirc) to memorize spells and allows you to learn new spells - but you still need to memorize one to cast it in battle. You will get a level 2 spell slot at level 3 iirc.

&

Question 1:
Did you rest? I think you need to rest. It's been a while since I played it.

No, you're not understanding me at all, but I agree, it's quite hard to put into words because of the dumb way I'm selecting a cleric and a wizard but then being presented with two sorcerers. I'm at level 4 now and both still have only 6 level 1 spells in the sub-pool, even though I chose two more when I levelled up to level 2.

Question 2:
They both work like sorcerers. No spell memorization, you pick spells on level up and you can cast certain number of spells of each level per day. How many spell you can cast is determined by level and I think int or some other attribute.

Ok, thanks.
 

Serus

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Ah, yea - wizards in kotc worked like sorcerers, so the limit is the amount of spell slots and the levels of the slots. I forgot that. Still at level 4 you should have level 2 slot(s)... and be able to select the spells you learnt at level up to be cast-able.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Yes, that's right.

So I guess the question is: is the maximum spell slots 6? And: So what's happened to any other spells I've selected on levelling up or if I want to learn a spell from a scroll?
 

Projas

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Are you casting from the quick bar? "C" opens your spell book which should have all the spells.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Whatever it was I don't really care anymore as I'm now at level 10 and lvl one spells are drifting into don't care anyway territory. I remember it had something to do with shrinking weapon or whatever it's called, because I chose it at as a potential way to shrink greatswords into longswords if I found a good magical one but I couldn't interact with the spell when I wanted to. It wasn't a major priority anyway it just threw me for a loop while trying to get my head around sorcering a cleric.

I read some old threads about this game on here and most were recommending 2 mages, 1 cleric and 1 knight, but I'd already made what I suspect many did and had one of each + an archer build knight. I can't say I'm having may problems and, so far, the knights have been doing most of the heavy lifting aside from during the pitched battles with bosses, mainly due to the fact that I had to complete the entirety of the Stockade area without resting: I used up all my spells thinking the dragon was the end-boss... whoops, and then believed that guy so I didn't get a fireplace on the upper level. For most of the battles, including the dragon, it was a case of end-turning the mage and priest while the fighters blocked corridors and cleaved through stuff. The cleric was reduced to cheap heal wands as her only real activity and the mage a missile wand, which was hardly ever used, and a few fireball scrolls for boss battles.

Fucking crazy stuff, makes the whole idea of having learned spells seem a bit pointless all round really, now viewing them as a more restricted resource than actual inventory resources. I expect the fighters will suddenly become redundant at some point, I got a hint of that when I tried to do the four statues at the end of the tomb in the cave at level 5/6, my single mage could halve+ them all by herself while all the other party members were just contributing bits and pieces before dying. Two mages there and it would have been fairly easy. However, that dragon, killed entirely by arrows/bolts from the fighters while webbed with both mage and cleric clicking end-turn about 10 to 15 times.
 
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After reaching level 2, my mage and priest got to pick some more spells from the pool of level 1 spells. However, when combat next came around I was still limited to the six spells I picked at level 1, the new selections weren't available
I remember it had something to do with shrinking weapon or whatever it's called
"Reduce Weapon" is not a combat spell.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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After reaching level 2, my mage and priest got to pick some more spells from the pool of level 1 spells. However, when combat next came around I was still limited to the six spells I picked at level 1, the new selections weren't available
I remember it had something to do with shrinking weapon or whatever it's called
"Reduce Weapon" is not a combat spell.

The really weird thing is... the problem I had was that I couldn't use it out of combat...
 

Rpgsaurus Rex

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Dunno man, once you realize you can craft spell scrolls difficulty drops to zero.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Question 1:

After reaching level 2, my mage and priest got to pick some more spells from the pool of level 1 spells. However, when combat next came around I was still limited to the six spells I picked at level 1, the new selections weren't available and there were no arrows to suggest the new spells were simply off-screen and required scrolling to. Is there a hard limit of 6 spells per spell-level? Or am I missing something? Or what and what? If the mage learns a new spell but already has 6 slots taken is the spell lost? Can the priest learn spells?

Question 2:

During combat everything starts off ok, but a couple of rounds into the battle and the cleric and mage can suddenly no longer cast level 1 spells, like, they're only allowed to cast 2 or 3 spells per spell-level a day? Is the number related to character level or something? And why isn't this mentioned anywhere, either in the help section of the game or anywhere on the entire internet? Is it because the game is confusing me by having a large selection pool whereby your selections are merely creating a new secondary pool which you don't currently have full access to? Those numbers to the left of that screen, that means your daily max usage of spells from your chosen mini-pool, right? Where does the priest go in the UI to change out their current mini-pool to a different mini-pool and can the mage do this as well?

Do you play a patched version?
Cleric and Wizard alike cast like a sorc or favored soul but learn spells from scrolls (+ level-up spell picks) like a Wizard. You can learn all spells in the game, there's no limit. If you have more casters of the same type (e.g. 2 wizards or 2 clerics) they can even "share spells" from the spell book and exchange unknown spells. For instance you find a new scroll, one learns the spell then shares with the other.

All this sounds like either your game is bugged or you can't handle the UI.
RTFM?
http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/HowToPlay.htm#How to cast a spell
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I suspect it was a bug. Either in the game or in my brain. Whatever it was I wasn't unable to take screenshots because I asked after I'd run out of spells and couldn't rest, so all my spells had strikes through them anyway. By the time I rested I was lvl 10 and I no longer cared about shrinking greatswords. I'll check out the reduce weapon spell next time I play just for the pedantry.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Just finished off the final Giant leader (the third one) and thought I'd share some brief thoughts.

I really like the D&D implementation, even if bastardised.
I really dislike the 'hunt the campfire' mini-game.
I really like the huge monster variety and excellent set battles.
I really dislike the overuse of some monsters and the excessive respawns.
I really like the variety of itemisation and the pacing of how its delivered.
I really dislike the method of rating item bonuses with 1, 2 and 3 values and sometimes my character wont equip an item and nothing tells you why this is happening.

So, correspondingly, I have spells of being amazed at how good the game is while, often not long later, I'll have a spell of hating it and shutting it down for a bit. Either way, I'm still motivated to go on and when I do play I'm hooked for many, many hours, though those many hours should be less sometimes but for all the grindy travelling hold-up from respawns - and the odd over-drawn out encounters [example of one such irritant: Iron Golem, other side of a web to my party, standing in a fireplace, my group just out of range combined with the wizard's Magic Missile wand empty (you can't craft in combat and I'm sure it doesn't let me refill a wand when there's at least one charge still left on it, though I could be wrong here(?), the archer's arrows mostly just get absorbed, the crossbowman isn't fully proficient yet so only fires once every two turns, and his bolts just get mostly absorbed anyway and the only thing really hitting the Golem for anything is the cleric's wand of Searing Light, most of which gets rehealed by the fireplace each turn, which then runs out and the cleric can't refill it because he's only just leveled up and hasn't got any spare exp. Pretty specific I know, but there are variations of this throughout].

There were way too many Giants. So bored of Giants by the end of the third one. But there is enough of a sense of accomplishment to not lose hope. For those who compare it to a jRPG, yes, those are the bits that are pissing me off, but for those who are praising the tactical D&D, yes, that's the part that's thoroughly excellent. IMO. Those who are belittling the graphic can go die in a fire etc, the graphics are fine.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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the excessive respawns.

Having now finished the game, I looked again at the game options and there does seem to be an option to turn off respawns:

Chalice3_zps3nfp8gnx.png


Though I'm not sure if that would mean you had less exp and money for such things as constant crafting. I usually play games on their default settings because, usually, the game is designed around the default settings. Even if I was to play it again I'm not sure I'd click these off as a result. It'd be hard to know without testing it out and it would be a very long and grindy test even without the respawns.

I'd heard a lot about the final battle from other codex threads on KotC, with lots of predictions about failure with 2 knights and only one wizard and cleric. At first I thought this would be the case as my first two tries ended in some horrific defeats with me swearing about concentration fails at the crucial moment and similar etc. However, once I tried something that involved a bit of thinking out the box it was easy as pie. I had more difficulty with the room of undeads in the room directly above the final battle room, for that I had to craft 4xmax acid rings combined with extremely perfect starting positions before that became easy.
 

CryptRat

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The final battle takes place outside where you start the game once you're leaving the building, just like the very first battle if I'm not mistaking.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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The final battle takes place outside where you start the game once you're leaving the building, just like the very first battle if I'm not mistaking.

What what? The game told me it was over after I'd freed the princess from the temple and spoken to the Duke. You sure you're not thinking of clicking "continue playing" and then encountering a respawn somewhere?
 

CryptRat

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Yes, it's after you were congratulated and so. You must go back to the first barrack, and when you leave the monsters are waiting for you, something like that. It's like a super hard post-ending battle.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Oh right, like a post-game encore. Thanks for informing me about it, I never would have even thought to look. I'll have a crack at it tomorrow :intrigued:
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Yes, it's after you were congratulated and so. You must go back to the first barrack, and when you leave the monsters are waiting for you, something like that. It's like a super hard post-ending battle.

Ok, gave it a try. It's pretty much insane. I figured out a way to beat it and I got to:

Maphistor - dead
Agrabias - dead
Medusa - dead
Blue Dragon - dead
Nul x 3 - 3 x dead
Grimlock x 2 - 2 x dead
Vampire x 2 - 2 x dead
Thri-Kreen x 4 - 4 x dead
Troll Shaman x 2 - 1 x dead 1 x 50 hp left
Iron Golem x 2 - 2 x 50 HP left
Black Dragon - untouched
Balor x 2 - 1 x dead 1 x 230 hp left

It was all over, just a couple more Acid blasts and I could go all out on the black dragon. I was plain sailing to a simple but very long drawn out victory. And then the Balor did it's dominate spell, something for which they get loads of attempts in one go ( ! no idea why ! ) and dominated both my knights. Battle over. I had no idea Protection from evil had worn off. And this typifies the practical problems of this game in a nutshell, there doesn't appear to be any obvious way to know what buff any of your team has on them nor any indication of when they wear off. And considering I'd been at that battle for 4 real time hours, it's a real pain in the ass trying to keep any kind of concentration going that long.

For each 10 seconds it takes for me to have my turn, the AI takes 2 long minutes and even then it's mostly delaying its troops in readiness of another 2 minutes of "readying for attack", whatever that is. And it's this incredibly slow pace which really drains you when it comes to giving it another try, which combined with the terrible feedback, makes the whole battle hugely demotivating, if it wasn't stupid enough to begin with.

I guess it could have been slightly easier if my cleric had learned the Scroll creation feat, as it is I'm limited to only 3 or 4 Mass Harms/Mass Heals. As it is I'm relying on a particularly boring and cheesy method which is more akin to a battle of attrition. The first Balor I killed I did it over about 30 turns using a Bow of Wounding, for example.

The only enemies that make the battle hard are the Spider and the Thri-Kreen. If it wasn't for those then it would be piss easy. The Spider's most devastating attack is Dispel Magic and Counter Spelling and the Thri-Kreens most devastating attack is Counter Spelling. Even with Displacement the fuckers hit you every fucking time with their ranged attack and disrupt your spells, even will all the concentration feats.

Another desperately annoying feature is the fact that you can't save during a battle. So like in the above game I couldn't go "oh shit, Prot From Evil has word off" reload a turn or two back, and finish the battle, oh no, the fucker makes you start all the way back at the beginning, and all the reloading that involves to get a desired start. Its really fucking stupid. I've no doubt it works ok if you happen to have the exact right squad make-up with the exact right feats, but, all the way from the beginning of the game to making one single bad move during the battle or encounter one small bad roll means reloading a 4 hour draaaaaag of a battle.

I guess I'll defeat this battle at some point, its something to do I suppose. I mean... it's there to do isn't it... *groans*
 

FeelTheRads

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How the fuck did you get to this battle?

Where do you have to go after this:

Chalice_zpsamtqrfg2.png
 

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