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Kotor 1 destroys my brain cells. The pain... Aaaargh!!!

Old One

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In Star Wars movies, the pattern is to shift from an artificial location, to an organic location, to a new artificial location, to a new and radically different organic location. For example, you have a battle on Princess Leia's ship, followed by an adventure in the deserts on Tatooine, followed by a battle in space and an adventure on a space station, followed by a landing on Yavin 4. KOTOR2 violates this by moving you from ugly man-made Peragus to ugly man-made location number 2 to ugly man-made location number 3. Even KOTOR1 did this better than KOTOR2.

My.... God..... I never knew!

I've heard of some atrocities committed through history, but this one takes the cake!

How DARE you Obsidian for this crime!

(how does Empire Strikes Back fit into this though?)

Hoth - Asteroid Field space battle - Dagobah - Cloud City

It happens this way because every location is based on imagery from the setting of a movie George Lucas saw when he was a kid. Tatooine is from Lawrence of Arabia (1962), Hoth is from Doctor Zhivago (1965), Mos Eisley and the cantina are based on Rick's Cafe from Casablanca (1942), and Endor and Dagobah are from The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957).

So yeah, it's kind of important.

If you want to see where the original Death Star trench run came from, see a movie called The Dam Busters (1955).
 

Athelas

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The Old Republic is a garbage setting. They took the setting of Star Wars, copied it, then replaced everything in it with pseudo-instances: pseudo-stormtroopers, pseudo-R2D2, pseudo-C3PO, pseudo-Millennium Falcon. It's supposed to be thousands of years before the events of the movies, but everything is exactly the same...except it has a slightly different name and looks a little bit different. It's a stunning example of low-effort marketing.
>complains about Kotor 2's setting
>while praising Bioware elsewhere in the post despite them being the one who retconned the Old Republic setting into being identical to the movies
>despite Kotor 2 actually trying to bring back era-appropriate aspects of the setting such as the beast riders of Iziz

HK-47 was the lone bright spot from KOTOR1, so in KOTOR2 they tried to make more of him, but even that's a failure. It's a hollow echo, like someone trying to write jokes "in the style of" a successful comedian.
HK-47 in Kotor 1 was unbearable. One joke stretched out into an entire character (and it wasn't even a particularly good joke to begin with). The Kotor 2 version still isn't great, but at least they use the juxtaposition of assassin and protocol droid in much more interesting ways.

In KOTOR1 you had to work to become a Jedi, but in KOTOR2 you start as a Jedi, and all your stupid companions can become Jedi Knights, no matter how emotionally unstable and unworthy they are. All it takes is some sweet talking and a cutscene. Everyone is a winner!
Having to work for it in Kotor 1 = being told you're a super duper Jedi potential while the Jedi Council doesn't give a shit that you just almost conquered the galaxy (seriously, Kotor's plot is almost Fallout 3 levels of stupid).

Kotor 2 actually requires you work for it it by having to gain influence with your party members and having to search for lightsaber parts. And the story frames your power as something dangerous and problematic.

In Star Wars movies, the pattern is to shift from an artificial location, to an organic location, to a new artificial location, to a new and radically different organic location. For example, you have a battle on Princess Leia's ship, followed by an adventure in the deserts on Tatooine, followed by a battle in space and an adventure on a space station, followed by a landing on Yavin 4. KOTOR2 violates this by moving you from ugly man-made Peragus to ugly man-made location number 2 to ugly man-made location number 3. Even KOTOR1 did this better than KOTOR2.
What is the surface of Telos, the jungle of Dxun, the abandoned ruins of Korriban and the graveyard world of Malachor V?
 

Rivmusique

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The KotOR 1 >>> 2 stuff is pretty bad, but to recommend Academy over Outcast...

Double-bladed and dual-wield styles were shit and the guy you could kill/spare for dark/light endings was Jar Jar-tier annoying.

Dark Forces 2 was probably the best in the series though, but it wasn't all about the saber fights like JO and JA.
 

Beastro

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The Kotor 2 version still isn't great, but at least they use the juxtaposition of assassin and protocol droid in much more interesting ways.

He, like everyone else in the second game besides maybe Kreia, had more to say than just their lens of stereotype. You had rather normal conversations with HK that were only occasionally interspersed with his meatbag hating quips. I mean, it even made Carth a decent, restrained guy who acted his part having become a general.

Having to work for it in Kotor 1 = being told you're a super duper Jedi potential while the Jedi Council doesn't give a shit that you just almost conquered the galaxy (seriously, Kotor's plot is almost Fallout 3 levels of stupid).

Kotor 2 actually requires you work for it it by having to gain influence with your party members and having to search for lightsaber parts. And the story frames your power as something dangerous and problematic.

The problem for me was that 1 had to become a Jedi overnight during a simple quest. Now looking back that's the big hint about the PCs past, but when you put that in a medium like video games, almost everyone will assume it's typical stupid dev expediency to offer the player the chance of becoming a Jedi without the entire game revolving around only that.

Plot twists are neat things, but you should not have your games make people think you've been doing an incompetent job of making a game.

While I'm at it: The big thing I love about 2 is how the PC isn't a Tabusla Rasa whereas in 1 they, for all practical purposes, treat you as one to keep the trope going while you really aren't that keeps the game having the same typical feel to it. The PC has a history in 2 and you not only meet people from the PCs past but talk to them like they have a past and even greet them the same way with no false new one forced in with something like "Ooooooh it's you! It's been so long I'd forgotten you completely!" happening.

Again, they even do this with using Carth who could have been replaced by some random Republic general we never have seen or will hear of again.

2 pulls of having both a sense of personal history happening to everyone as well as history in the broader sense it is typically used in, not the drama "history" of 1. In that respect 2 treats the KOTOR setting as it should be, a window into the ancient history of the Star Wars universe that makes you feel like you're living in it, not as a simple setting that doesn't even look different from what it will 10,000 years into the future.

So yeah, it's kind of important.

Lucas started the ball rolling and contributed a lot in places, the crowning achievement being TESBs twist ending, but he wasn't a Tolkien or Herbert who single handed made a world himself. In fact in a lot of places he was working against the better insights of many, like Leigh Brackett's contributions that could have made Star Wars into something a hell of a lot different and more interesting.

SF Debris has a good series going on about the development of the movies.
 
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deuxhero

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The problem for me was that 1 had to become a Jedi overnight during a simple quest.

They actually say you've spent months training. Not that anywhere else in the game indicates you've been hiding out for that long. I think even the quests in progress on the same planet act as if no time passed.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
You could fail the test and still be a Jedi. :) what a great game.
 

Alexios

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I like all the people making grand statements like D20 doesn't fit Star Wars. Yes, it is D20s fault and has nothing to do with implementation. There are rpgs that prove D20 is a decent system, such as ToEE. NWN and Kotors had a retard version of it made for the retarded audience they game was made for. Also, for non TB, look at DDO for a great implementation that din;t lead to retard combat for retards.

I also like how Jedi Academy is being recommended a lot. Since I have never heard of this game it must not be an rpg, which further proves my point about this site and its community.
I don't get the love for Jedi Academy either. It's a game geared toward children and is good if you're a Star Wars nerd who isn't looking for any kind of RPG experience. There's one choice in the entire game, otherwise it's a less-than-mediocre FPS where you can make your character awkwardly swing a lightsaber around and cast some force powers. Republic Commando is probably a better option if you want a decent shooter set in the Star Wars universe.
 

Athelas

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The problem for me was that 1 had to become a Jedi overnight during a simple quest.

They actually say you've spent months training. Not that anywhere else in the game indicates you've been hiding out for that long. I think even the quests in progress on the same planet act as if no time passed.


'You have done in weeks what many cannot do in years.'

Being able to learn using the Force so quickly is actually the one part of the plot that does make sense. Everything surrounding it, like the Jedi Masters actively teasing the upcoming twist or nobody recognizing the famous Jedi turned Sith who almost conquered the galaxy just a few months ago, not so much.
 

Beastro

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The problem for me was that 1 had to become a Jedi overnight during a simple quest.

They actually say you've spent months training. Not that anywhere else in the game indicates you've been hiding out for that long. I think even the quests in progress on the same planet act as if no time passed.


'You have done in weeks what many cannot do in years.'

Being able to learn using the Force so quickly is actually the one part of the plot that does make sense. Everything surrounding it, like the Jedi Masters actively teasing the upcoming twist or nobody recognizing the famous Jedi turned Sith who almost conquered the galaxy just a few months ago, not so much.


Ahh yeah. Fair enough. It's been a damn long time since I played it, but bringing that up has brought back Ed Asner saying that line to mind.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Jedi Outcast is :obviously:. It really shines in LAN but the campaign was cool too. Didn't like Academy, dunno why it didn't ring with me.

And whoever is doubting KotOR 1-2 should go back to playing his cuck RPGs like Ass Effect: Androgaya and Cuck Age: Inquidecline
 

Mark Richard

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Messages
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That whole training sequence has a lot of [Lie] dialogue options which require announcing your intentions to the game. Basically, in order to have the main character lie, the player has to tell the truth. Instead I lied to the game and selected the sincere option. :lol:
 

mbv123

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KOTOR I has so much edgy dialogue choices that it's pretty hilarious. I can never bring myself to commit to a full dark side character just because of how retarded my character sounds.
Literally Fallout 3 "I'm going to kill you SO MUCH" tier
 

Mark Richard

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Basically, in order to have the main character lie, the player has to tell the truth. Instead I lied to the game and selected the sincere option. :lol:

Do these options have any actual effect?
Not really. Those lie options just prompt the occasional response praising your devotion to the Jedi cause. The council could be pretending to believe you of course, but since Jedi councils have a track record of incompetence from KOTOR 2 & Revenge of the Sith, it's difficult to be sure. The rest of their behaviour doesn't inspire confidence. They're holed up in that enclave like Lord British in his castle, completely unaware of what goes on right outside their building.
 
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wwsd

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I think the [LIE] choices just give you dark side points for something other than kicking puppies for a change. I guess it's kind of nice that they try to put some window-dressing on the fact that you're basically being railroaded towards being a Jedi anyway, even if you can solve everything the evil way from then on. I believe lying to the masters takes some decent Persuade skill too, but they're dumb as rocks anyway, so maybe not.
 

Jarmaro

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Is there a point in disscusing "acting dark side"? It's one big shitshow, the more stupid you act the more bad points you get, but no one never calls you out for it. You can spit masters in the face and they still will send you on the journey.
 

mbv123

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I find it hilarious that if you get plenty of dark side points by the time you get jedi training, and they still want to train the guy who is an ex-Dark Lord and already looks like a crack addict.
I know they're desperate but c'mon.
 

Wilian

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Divinity: Original Sin
I also like how Jedi Academy is being recommended a lot. Since I have never heard of this game it must not be an rpg, which further proves my point about this site and its community.

Why of course it's an RPG! You get to assign points to make meaningful character builds, persuade people instead of having to fight them and you make large narrative choice!
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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I also like how Jedi Academy is being recommended a lot. Since I have never heard of this game it must not be an rpg, which further proves my point about this site and its community.

Why of course it's an RPG! You get to assign points to make meaningful character builds, persuade people instead of having to fight them and you make large narrative choice!

I just looked it up and sure, by today's standards where everything is an rpg it is an rpg along with everything else. But back in 2003 it required a game to at least have heavy rpg elements to be called an rpg incorrectly. I remember when the AD&D genie game came out it wasn't even remotely considered an rpg but would solidly be one today since it has a couple stats. It really would be easier to list the games today's batch of dummies doesn't consider to be an rpg.
 

Wilian

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I also like how Jedi Academy is being recommended a lot. Since I have never heard of this game it must not be an rpg, which further proves my point about this site and its community.

Why of course it's an RPG! You get to assign points to make meaningful character builds, persuade people instead of having to fight them and you make large narrative choice!

I just looked it up and sure, by today's standards where everything is an rpg it is an rpg along with everything else. But back in 2003 it required a game to at least have heavy rpg elements to be called an rpg incorrectly. I remember when the AD&D genie game came out it wasn't even remotely considered an rpg but would solidly be one today since it has a couple stats. It really would be easier to list the games today's batch of dummies doesn't consider to be an rpg.

You need to re-tune your sarcasm detector.

:nocountryforshitposters:
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
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Messages
2,088
I also like how Jedi Academy is being recommended a lot. Since I have never heard of this game it must not be an rpg, which further proves my point about this site and its community.

Why of course it's an RPG! You get to assign points to make meaningful character builds, persuade people instead of having to fight them and you make large narrative choice!

I just looked it up and sure, by today's standards where everything is an rpg it is an rpg along with everything else. But back in 2003 it required a game to at least have heavy rpg elements to be called an rpg incorrectly. I remember when the AD&D genie game came out it wasn't even remotely considered an rpg but would solidly be one today since it has a couple stats. It really would be easier to list the games today's batch of dummies doesn't consider to be an rpg.

You need to re-tune your sarcasm detector.

:nocountryforshitposters:

I got the sarcasm and wanted to check out the game's information anyway since everyone is so hip to talk about it. Your post reminded me to look it up. I just reread it and I guess I can see what you are saying as it is dry. But, by not replying directly to you, and not calling you specifically a dummy I thought I was excluding you. A sort of "us" versus the generic "them." I'm not big on attacking indirectly. If I thought you really thought it was rpg I would have replied directly to you to tell you how you were wrong and stupid.

But, since everyone always thinks I'm angry I know I have issues coming across in print the way I think I come across in my head (queue the witty responses - ha ha ahead of time). I don't know how to fix this and I'm too old to give it a serious effort. Maybe I just need to use more picture?
 

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