Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Iznaliu]

Intended. After all, the computer is doing the calculations, so why would you need to know anything? Probably the reason the game has so many status effects that no mere human can possibly keep track of.

Will PoE3 just be a video of Sawyer holding a set of scales?

 

[Prime Junta]

I'm actually playing PoE now, first time i played it was when it came out and i left it at Defiance Bay and never touched it again until now. I must say, combat is a fucking mess, and spells do not feel powerfull at all. I mean, the way my mage does most damage is invoking a big staff (lvl 1 spell), or blight something (lvl3 spell)., which invokes some kind of elemental wand. There are some big shiny pretty spells, but they don't feel impactful at all really, just something like "oh ok, im gonna damage a lil bit every enemy"-> *throws fireball*.

ur using them wrong

Look at which defence your spell attacks. Look at which defence is weakest on your enemy. Pick the spell accordingly. Buff your ACC and/or debuff enemy defences as necessary.

Try these on for size:

* Chill Fog + Combusting Wounds
* Curse of Blackened Sight + Fireball
* Miasma of Dull-Mindedness + Bewildering Spectacle

Of course if you've got another caster in the party, combine your casts for a quick one-two punch. The wizard's CC spells mesh beautifully with the druid's direct damage for example.

 

[Quillon]

 

[fobia]

I'm somewhat torn regarding all classes having the same base accuracy.
According to Josh the modals coming with the respective weapon proficiency will make up for it, as should HP, deflection etc.
But as someone asked in the twitch chat: What about ranged combat? A wizard that wields a war bow will be as effective as a fighter, besides the rapid shot modal that the fighter will probably get through proficiency.
At least on lower levels the classes feel 'distinct' in PoE since most caster types suck in combat. Even later on, a wizard could only be effective in melee when buffed and having equipped summoned weapons with their bonuses to accuracy (correct me if I'm wrong, never played a lance-wielding wizard).
I hope this doesn't have too much of an impact on how distinct classes feel in Deadfire.

Also broom-weapon confirmed.

 

[Prime Junta]

But as someone asked in the twitch chat: What about ranged combat? A wizard that wields a war bow will be as effective as a fighter, besides the rapid shot modal that the fighter will probably get through proficiency.

It's not just one modal. In P1, the class's base accuracy doesn't make all that much difference compared to talents and abilities, many of which are class-restricted. Weapon Specialisation, Weapon Mastery, Swift Aim, Swift and Steady, Driving Flight, Reckless Assault, Dirty Fighting, Vicious Fighting, Bleeding Wounds, Biting Whip etc.

In P1 a wizard will be lackluster with a war bow no matter what you do, not so much because of the low base ACC but because he lacks those class-specific feats that pump it up. With a wand, rod, or sceptre though he can be utterly lethal, if you pick Blast, Penetrating Blast, and Dangerous Implement. Having the same base ACC for everyone won't change this much.

 

[Infinitron]

Lol, thanks for the non-answer, Sawyer-kun.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah. A "yes for the base versions, but the empowered ones are much more powerful" would have sufficed.

 

[Haplo]

Every spell in PoE is just garish, flamboyant colors jizzed in your face without any meaty (pun intended) impact. That's why nothing feels powerful, not the numbers behind them, even if they hit for 1 million damage. Their success is also unclear, it's very hard to tell whether your spell affected an enemy or not.

Tayn's Chaotic Orb, Concelhaut's Crushing Doom and Death Ring all feel fairly powerful I'd say

Or Pull of Eora. Or Freezing Pillar. Ningauth's Shadowflame. Gaze of the Adragan. Kalakoth Freezing Rake. Wall of Many Colors.

Just some examples. Like Prime Junta advised above, you're supposed to combo many spells to great effect. After Pull of Eora you can lay a field of death or do any other fancy stuff.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not the effect of the spell the problem, it's the lack of concrete response from the game that they've been cast/are working. Like I said with the backstab and crit examples from the IE games, they need obvious cues they are working, one pride flag colored spell after another is not meaningful differentiation, it just adds to the miasma of epileptic-seizure-waiting-to-happen.

 

[Haplo]

Like Stuck affliction showing huge green chains binding the character? I agree that visual feedback for most other effects leaves a bit to be desired.
Perhaps large icons flashing for a while over a character's head?
It is easy to go overboard here and get the infamous NWN2 Christmas trees...

 

[Infinitron]

Eventually somebody will make a RTwP tactical game where your caster shouts "FUCK YES" as his fireball spell hits and the enemies get blown across the room with ragdoll physics and the world will never be the same again

 

[fobia]

I actually think a *FUCK YES" would add to the immersion. :D

 

[Lacrymas]

Or, or, hear me out here, it's reaaaaalllyyy innovative and not an already-fixed problem - we do like the IE games did and tone everything down so important events can grab your attention better, also better sound design for crits and sneak attacks (something which is also totally new and mind-blowing).

 

[FreeKaner]

Sound design is entirely the issue. Pillars1 has weak sound design (including music) in general, it all meshes together in an indiscernible mess, not to mention the only track in entire game that has stayed with me is the ambience outside of Durgan's Battery.

 

[Sannom]

It's not the effect of the spell the problem, it's the lack of concrete response from the game that they've been cast/are working. Like I said with the backstab and crit examples from the IE games, they need obvious cues they are working, one pride flag colored spell after another is not meaningful differentiation, it just adds to the miasma of epileptic-seizure-waiting-to-happen.

The problem is that crits and backstabs in PoE are much more common in PoE than they are in BG2, not to mention the fact that spells going critical wasn't a thing, so a big "PAF!" with screen shaking probably isn't a wise move.

 

[Nephologist]

PoE does have audio feedback for crits in the form of companion quips, IMO Devil has the best. (Just like mama taught me!)

 

[Prime Junta]

a big "PAF!" with screen shaking

No, that sounds AWESOME

Seriously though, there is a middle ground there. You can have a meaty sound effect and something on the screen to indicate a crit, without giving everybody jittery eyeballs.

 

[Seari]

Isn't there screen shaking in PoE1 sometimes on crits? I could've sworn.

 

[Lacrymas]

The problem is that crits and backstabs in PoE are much more common in PoE than they are in BG2, not to mention the fact that spells going critical wasn't a thing, so a big "PAF!" with screen shaking probably isn't a wise move.

It can have a delay between triggers on the same enemy so it doesn't just spam you with sound effects, maybe 4-5 seconds before it can trigger again. Especially in the case of sneak attacks, although it can go the NWN route of having a little "sneak attack" message hovering above the enemy when you land one, but it's a bit cheap. Having to constantly look at my combat log to see if I'm landing sneak attacks is awful and distracting.

 

[Prime Junta]

----> hint about wizards and dangerous implements

The wizard is the only class who's able to restore Health without resting, at higher levels with no per-rest limitations at all (not counting Wound Binding or Field Triage which barely anybody bothers with). This means that you can keep happily blasting away with Dangerous Implement and Deleterious Alacrity of Motion even if he's Glassy McCannon who dumped CON.

 

[Infinitron]

Hurrah! Fereed has come through: https://www.reddit.com/r/projectete...lars_of_eternity_ii_deadfire_qa_6_transcript/

 

[Prime Junta]

Huh, Dimitri Berman is cooler than I thought.

I am interested in occult and in various metaphysical things, but I do not actively worship Satan.

Edit: also, nice bit of Sawyerite philosophising at the end:

JS: If I thought that was the most important thing about the games we make, yeah. But, like, read a book if that's what you want. If a designer or a writer comes here and their goal is to tell their story, I don't want them working on the project. The point of this is that it's supposed to be about the interaction between what the player wants to do and the ideas that we have. The whole of point what the area designers and writers do is to create a space in which the player has freedom to do a bunch of things that seem cool, and much like if you sit at a tabletop game and you play with a dungeon master who doesn't allow you to kill NPCs that they think are really precious, it feels bad. And it stinks. And it feels like you don't actually get to do what you want to do.

So, yes, it limits them. Too bad. That's the way that this game is setup: to, as much as we can, allow the player to have more freedom in what they do. So, yes, it's a rule; I don't care that they don't like it. Actually, I haven't found a lot of people who don't like it; it's a challenge that they have to adapt to, but it's for the benefit of the player. We're making these things for the benefit of players, not for the benefits of patting ourselves on the back and making people think we're amazing. If people don't have fun with it, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Sizzle]

We're trying to get just a wilder and wackier range of weapons into the game. Instead of doing really top-down weapon and armor designs where it seems really driven by production concerns, which is what we did on Pillars 1, I've tried to make the process much more fun, I guess.

much more fun

fun

:D

 

[yes plz]

needed more questions about hairstyles

 

[Lacrymas]

Don't you think that the principle that players can kill every NPC after first conversation severely damages your quest designers and writers ability to tell stories?

JS: If I thought that was the most important thing about the games we make, yeah. But, like, read a book if that's what you want. If a designer or a writer comes here and their goal is to tell their story, I don't want them working on the project. The point of this is that it's supposed to be about the interaction between what the player wants to do and the ideas that we have. The whole of point what the area designers and writers do is to create a space in which the player has freedom to do a bunch of things that seem cool, and much like if you sit at a tabletop game and you play with a dungeon master who doesn't allow you to kill NPCs that they think are really precious, it feels bad. And it stinks. And it feels like you don't actually get to do what you want to do.

So, yes, it limits them. Too bad. That's the way that this game is setup: to, as much as we can, allow the player to have more freedom in what they do. So, yes, it's a rule; I don't care that they don't like it. Actually, I haven't found a lot of people who don't like it; it's a challenge that they have to adapt to, but it's for the benefit of the player. We're making these things for the benefit of players, not for the benefits of patting ourselves on the back and making people think we're amazing. If people don't have fun with it, it doesn't really matter.

In cases where someone can't be killed, we try to be really careful about that, and not break the rules that we've setup. For example, if a character is in a cutscene and walks off, that is okay. What is not okay is having a character that talks to you, and then you exit the conversation, and then you're either prevented from attacking them or you hit them with a fireball and they just sort of ignore it — No, no, no, no, you can't kill that character.

It is hard for us, but that's the challenge. That's what we're doing: we're trying to make this for players so that they feel — not just feel, but that they are free to do what they want to do.

This worries me for some reason. Not that it can't be circumvented, but it pretty much destroys any chance of character-driven story. It relegates the important events to happen in the background, with you just having to react to them, not being in the conversation, but being told what happens, or the important events have already happened and you are there as a passive problem solving machine. Both of these things were major problems in PoE1 as well. It CAN work (BG1 for example), but it's passive and it actually reduces the chance for you to "do what you want".