Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Zombra]

What kind of boring wife wouldn't let you create something like Bloodlines? Overtly sexual or no.

It's not about permission, but a change in perspective.

 

[Lambach]

It's not about permission, but a change in perspective.

It actually is about permission, Annie is an insane harpy.

 

[Latelistener]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's still sexually frustrated.

 

[gaussgunner]

The overt sexualization in Bloodlines is part of what I love about it ... and you can't create work like that with your wife looking over your shoulder.

Yes you can. Well, I can. It's a sexy game but it's not even porn, much less cheating.

Oh. Right. Not if you married HER. Well look on the bright side, sooner or later she'll probably leave him for some cuck/dyke/tranny (all in one?) or get stabbed in the back by her new SJW friends and come back to the 'dex.

Atmost spheres, more like.

Now there's an idea that could save time on artwork.

Man, I'd love to make a vampire rpg if I could do it right. I've got vague plans for an iso-arpg-ish game in a few years. Vampires are perfect lone-wolf characters for that kind of gameplay. Not too much combat; more charm, seduction, stalking, scheming and manipulation - the good stuff. Oldschool like Bram Stoker and earlier ofc.

 

[Valtiel]

I guess you refer to Vampyr from dontnod, which I think has very little rpg mechanics, and is focused on a single pre-defined character where you can only change the outcome of the story. I was more interested in a licensed game, i like very much all the clan stuff and I would love to see a modern iteration of bloodlines, where it's possibile to choose from every clan.

VtM is just so quintessentially nineties. You'd have to reinvent it somehow, which is a tough act to pull off after Twilight ruined vampires for everybody.

I kinda agree and think it would need a thougher job nowadays, but I would like to add that vampires clans in modern era are inherently prone to become a cringe hell if not treated carefully even without Twilight and shit, so this reinforce the notion that Bloodlines did a very god job portraying it the way it did.
Anyway i'm on that goth mood now, I'm going to need some vampires movies in the next few days. And also I never managed to look at the PnP VTM

 

[Zombra]

The overt sexualization in Bloodlines is part of what I love about it ... and you can't create work like that with your wife looking over your shoulder.

Yes you can. Well, I can. It's a sexy game but it's not even porn, much less cheating.

Sure, some people certainly could. Some families will be supportive of "that" kind of sexual expression in a game. I feel like it will be much easier for single people to be less inhibited and channel that into their art, but it's not a necessary ingredient or anything. To me, Annie seems like the type to support sexy games, but even so it would carry a different tenor from Brian's earlier work. Bottom line, older married Brian has a substantially (and I think inescapably) distinct voice from young single Brian. I'd definitely buy a Bloodlines 2 from him but I'd be skeptical of it keeping its edge.

And gaussgunner I will buy your version as well. Like I said, let's have a lot of studios try it and hope one of them strikes gold.

 

[Wesp5]

I don't think it would be that easy, considering why he left Obsidian in the first place.

Why was that? Also while Brian Mitsoda might have lost his edge regarding naughty conversations, I wonder if he could still make the overall story as good as Bloodlines and the characters as memorable. Or was the main story contrived by Boyarsky, Cain or someone else and he only wrote the dialogues?

Rik Schaffer also would not mind working on a vampire game, but in his case, it's much easier.

But then again Rik Schaffer wrote somewhere that he felt rather down when he wrote the Bloodlines soundtrack and this is what he thinks made it so great and fitting to the dark setting! So he matured in a similar way, but I still think both of them would be better choices than many other developers.

 

[Nano]

Why was that?

The script he wrote for Alpha Protocol wasn't good enough, Obsidian threw it out and wrote a new one without him. From interviews it seems like he's still bitter about it.

 

[fantadomat]

Why was that?

The script he wrote for Alpha Protocol wasn't good enough, Obsidian threw it out and wrote a new one without him. From interviews it seems like he's still bitter about it.

Now i am curious what is in his script.

 

[Zombra]

I wonder if [Mitsoda] could still make the overall story as good as Bloodlines and the characters as memorable.

I bet it would be good. Our most recent evidence is the writing in Dead State, which I liked. People may say DS's writing isn't as good as Bloodlines, but I bet if it had been first-person with good voice actors it would have carried a lot better.

 

[Nano]

Why was that?

The script he wrote for Alpha Protocol wasn't good enough, Obsidian threw it out and wrote a new one without him. From interviews it seems like he's still bitter about it.

Now i am curious what is in his script.

There are audio snippets of it here: https://www.behance.net/gallery/2309038/Storyboards-Animatics

 

[zool]

I wonder if [Mitsoda] could still make the overall story as good as Bloodlines and the characters as memorable.

I bet it would be good. Our most recent evidence is the writing in Dead State, which I liked. People may say DS's writing isn't as good as Bloodlines, but I bet if it had been first-person with good voice actors it would have carried a lot better.

It's not that DS's writing is not as good as Bloodlines', it's that it is way inferior - as in VERY uneven in terms of quality and super bad on (many) occasions. IMO, the writing is actually the weakest part of DS, along with the overall low-quality UI art and portraits (I did love the maps though).

So, comparing Bloodlines' top-notch writing to DS's writing is kind of insulting to the former. Btw, didn't Annie did part of the writing for DS? That would explain the uneven quality from one NPC to another.

 

[Latelistener]

Why was that? Also while Brian Mitsoda might have lost his edge regarding naughty conversations, I wonder if he could still make the overall story as good as Bloodlines and the characters as memorable. Or was the main story contrived by Boyarsky, Cain or someone else and he only wrote the dialogues?

Someone above already answered, but the key point is that he wanted to maintain creative control over his projects, especially after what happened with Alpha Protocol.

But then again Rik Schaffer wrote somewhere that he felt rather down when he wrote the Bloodlines soundtrack and this is what he thinks made it so great and fitting to the dark setting! So he matured in a similar way, but I still think both of them would be better choices than many other developers.

Yes, it's funny, because Rik said exactly what people here are concerned about (you can't enter into the same river twice).
No matter how talented they are, I don't think they will be able to replicate Bloodlines. It's up to the youth.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play a "matured" version though.

 

[Delterius]

Bloodlines was about the 90s. We need a 2010s story. Mage could work if we consider the meme wars to be a fight over Paradigm.

 

[grotsnik]

The #1 thing I'd want to see in a new VtM game is a more involved level of politics, power struggles and backstabbing, but I can concede that there's only so much that's possible (with up to seven main clans to represent, plus the Sabbat or Anarchs) for your voiced, detailed first-person/third-person Bloodlines successor with stealth elements, gunplay and melee combat before you're a textbook case of Congrats, Fuckhead, You Bankrupted Your Studio Trying To Dramatically Expand On The Vision Of That Studio That Went Bankrupt.

If someone does get that poisoned chalice (or if someone's already developing it - I really can't believe that Paradox have no immediate ambitions beyond Cyanide's Werewolf), they'd probably be best off cribbing from the faction structure of something like Alpha Protocol: influence is everywhere, but it's primarily there to feed into your choices during missions, with less frequent opportunities for it to affect the main storyline.

Befriend the local Toreador and you can arrange for a security guard to leave the art gallery door open for you to break in. Piss off the Nosferatu and they'll activate security alarms when you're halfway through your heist. Etc.

 

[Delterius]

A Vampire the Alpha Bloodtrocol would be rather...

 

[Goral]

The #1 thing I'd want to see in a new VtM game is a more involved level of politics, power struggles and backstabbing

I don't see a studio or a person in the gaming industry capable of doing it well enough (maybe except Vault Dweller from IT studios if Age of Decadence can be any indication, it remains to be seen if TNW will also be of the same high quality). The best we could probably count on would be something on FNV level and even there it was pretty basic. In VtMB politics, backstabbing and power struggles were more in the background and we were just doing some quests that fitted a fledgling's character and were varied thanks to it. If we could play as Strauss for example we wouldn't get such interesting quests like The Ocean Hotel or going after Kilpatrick's employee or learning that Kobe beef is the shit. I also don't see why we would be aware of the inner politics as fledglings when we were just disposable pawns. Doing something what you suggest right would be way more difficult then going "from zero to hero" trope.

But if done right, I would also love to see it.

I for one would love to play as Beckett, or Jack, or VV, or Bertram or Strauss... That way we wouldn't start from zero to hero again (i.e. from a fledgling to a killing machine stronger than 200 year old vampires) and we would already have a background that would be easier to swallow. New content if done right could be better but using established characters would be easier and definitely interesting. And it's one of many possible ways to use the plot and characters from Bloodlines (mainly characters).

And I would love to see officer Chunk again, he's what's Miltiades is to Age of Decadence ;P.

 

[Zombra]

The #1 thing I'd want to see in a new VtM game is a more involved level of politics, power struggles and backstabbing

I don't see a studio or a person in the gaming industry capable of doing it well enough. The best we could probably count on would be something on FNV level and even there it was pretty basic.

Yeah. I feel like faction-oriented games tend towards open worlds, faction attitude meters, procedural consequences. A Bloodlines 2 should stay more scripted and intimate. With faction politics and so forth to be sure, but not trying to have 7 factions have meaningful systemic interactions.

 

[gaussgunner]

The #1 thing I'd want to see in a new VtM game is a more involved level of politics, power struggles and backstabbing, but I can concede that there's only so much that's possible (with up to seven main clans to represent, plus the Sabbat or Anarchs) for your voiced, detailed first-person/third-person Bloodlines successor with stealth elements, gunplay and melee combat before you're a textbook case of Congrats, Fuckhead, You Bankrupted Your Studio Trying To Dramatically Expand On The Vision Of That Studio That Went Bankrupt.

Same here, on a B-level indie budget in my case. No voiceovers, no cutscenes, less detail, "iso" graphics, original IP. It's got to be all about subterfuge. Coding and visual appeal is half the battle, writing is the other, and I know that's all I can handle even with enough money for a small team.

Doing something what you suggest right would be way more difficult then going "from zero to hero" trope.

Yeah, the latter is a safer bet, but with vampires your PC could be a somewhat powerful vampire making a fresh start in a relatively uncorrupted city/country. You're already tough, street-wise, maybe a socialite as well. You don't mess around with street thugs and hookers (unless they're useful), you go straight for the halls of power. The challenge and progression comes from new technology, new magic, and other supernaturals and secret societies vying for power in this virgin territory, and from the local humans as they wise up to these evil machinations.

Yeah. I feel like faction-oriented games tend towards open worlds, faction attitude meters, procedural consequences. I feel like a Bloodlines 2 should stay more scripted and intimate. With faction politics and so forth to be sure, but not trying to have 7 factions have meaningful systemic interactions.

Right on. Faction politics at a purely individual level. It's one of those rare instances in game design where realism is simpler and more fun. The only systems in real life are, what, economics and democracy? (Heh, election meddling could be a fun feature.)

Bloodlines was about the 90s. We need a 2010s story.

We really do. Part of me wants to write a vampire rpg set in medieval or rennaissance times. But I love the present-day setting of VTMB and the way it subtly mocks the decline of our society. I don't think I've ever seen that in a proper rpg, only in novels/film/TV. Definitely the most fun time period for me to write, which is important for motivation and follow-through when you don't have a boss or publisher cracking the whip.

 

[Old One]

I've always been intrigued by the idea of a Bloodlines prequel set in the 1940s. In Bloodlines the characters keep referencing this period as the last time the Camarilla tried to move into L.A. and the anarchs kicked them out.

Also, you'd get to see a lot of familiar faces - Nines, Isaac, GARY. You could meet Gorgeous Gary Golden before he became a Nosferatu.

You could meet Ginger Swan.

 

[Zombra]

So, comparing Bloodlines' top-notch writing to DS's writing is kind of insulting to the former.

The main difference was in presentation. Get a team of great voice actors to deliver DS with stylish, close-up Source engine facial animations and I bet you'll like the writing 1000x as much.

 

[Plisken]

honestly i played through bloodlines just last week and wasn't as engaged with the writing/dialogue as i was when i played it on release... I actually found myself skipping a lot

The facial animation system was a huge incline when it was first released, but I think people continue to overrate it out of nostalgia because on this playthru i found it rather dated - the expressions are all rather exaggerated and lacking subtlety, poor transitions (going from happy to ANGRY TEETH BEARING and back to happy to blank face etc).... Modern titles have definitely improved in this regard (see: witcher 3).

The overall story is good, and its still so nice to play a game that has some actual C&C instead of pretend C&C. However, I feel like the ending scenarios are rather weak considering how not different in result most of them are.

 

[Vorark]

Random question but is it normal for the sound to have a weird metalic quality to it? Sometimes there's an echo to the voiceovers. I find it to be very distracting.

 

[gaussgunner]

Random question but is it normal for the sound to have a weird metalic quality to it? Sometimes there's an echo to the voiceovers. I find it to be very distracting.

Nope that's not normal. Try turning off the High Quality Audio option.

 

[Goral]

The facial animation system was a huge incline when it was first released, but I think people continue to overrate it out of nostalgia because on this playthru i found it rather dated

lol

Compare:

with much, much newer Bioware/Bethesda games and you will see how silly your claim is:

or:

BTW, Wesp5 , I assume that Drog's fix is still in in the new patch?
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/vtm-bloodlines-high-poly-patch.113118/