RPG's that can be deep enough like books and movies.

[ERYFKRAD]

Is there something 100% escapist?

Saints Row 3 and 4

 

[DeepOcean]

Is there something 100% escapist?

Saints Row 3 and 4

I was talking more of RPGs but in the case of utter crap like Saint's Row 4, their "WE DON"T TAKE DIS SHIET SERIOUSLY GUISE, LOOK AT US!" was really annoying and reeked more of desperation from the lack of having competency to actually make a funny comedy story so they gone "LOL, RANDOMS." lets parody all this pop culture crap that was already crap than do a crap comedy stick over it.

 

[Cael]

Mask of Betrayer is pretty good, tries to trow some shades of grey about death, justice, what's evil and good



The dialogue with Mirkul is pretty entertaining

It is not bad, and one of the reasons why people rate it far higher than any recent RPG offering. It approaches the same thing from several different perspectives.

It, unfortunately, does suffer from the same thing that keeps cropping up whenever questions like the Wall is thrown up: Idiot naytheists projecting their own insecurities, hate, arrogance and ignorance on to the questions posed *within the setting* and coming up with all sorts of simplistic, reductionist rants. It is even more unfortunate that one of the NPC companions echoes that same simplistic view. If that companion wasn't there, I would have absolved the developers of the idiocy, but the fact she was there meant that they didn't know their own material. This is something that those more knowledgeable about the setting had picked up on before, although they linked it to the NPC rather than the people behind the NPC. The NPC might have a wisdom of 24, the writers certainly didn't.

One thing I do like about MotB is that it doesn't handfeed you answers. You have to look at it through several different views of NPCs and make up your own mind. What it does do is give you the pieces with which to assemble the answer, and not that many people make it that far, at least not many of the loudmouthed ranty ones.

Spoiler

Laying aside the fact that gods in the Realms post-Time of Troubles need worship or they die and the Wall serves as one of the methods in which they insure that worship happens (although I believe the Wall pre-dates the Time of Troubles, natch; so it was probably a bad retcon to begin with), the rants invariably boils down to Kaelin's naive question: How can people who have never heard of the gods be condemned to the Wall? That is not just!

This is the same scream we get from naytheists in real life about religion, especially the monotheistic ones. While it may apply in real life, it does not in the Forgotten Realms.

Why not? Because ANYTHING you worship in the Realms is connected to a god somewhere. Chauntea, for example is known by several names, so anyone who worships a generic agricultural deity eventually ends up in her domain regardless of what you called that diety. Similarly with Mystra and magic. There is no "believe in Christ and Christ alone before you can enter the gates of Heaven" in the Realms. This is made explicitly clear in several novels set there, and the converse is also true. If you don't really believe in duty and honour, crying out to Torm for your whole life won't get you into his domain. 4th Ed actually made it all even more explicitly clear, just to pander to the ranty screamers: many of the gods with similar portfolios were merged and handwaved away as all being aspects of the same god.

That question by Kaelin should never have happened. Not only is she a cleric who should know all this. Not only is her Wisdom of 24 more than enough to allow her to see the stupidity in her argument. She is a freaking half-celestial from the realm of ultimate Goodness where the gods of Truth, Justice, Honour and Martyrdom lives! Hello!

I would have accepted the Founder and Gann making the argument. Not Kaelin. She should have known better, and having her of all people make that argument just gave confirmation bias to the naytheists. It was just about the most wrong person in the entire game to have asked that question. The only one who might be worse would have been Kelemvor himself (might because Kelemvor isn't exactly fully knowledgeable about diety stuff either for very obvious reasons if you knew his history), and even there, the writers threw in shades of it in some of the things he says.

The best bits of MotB is about love and sacrifice, not the question of death and justice. What are you willing to endure to save the one you love? Okku sacrificed everything to save Rashemen. His tribe, his legacy, his future. Akashi for the Founder, and vice versa, really. The hag mother for Gann. Would you go that far for someone you love? Really? Truly?

 

[Atlet]

No, all rpgs are shit

Spoiler

Serious answer: Of course RPGs can be just as good in the writing department as movies/books, it all depends on who's writing. That said, I think people put too much stock on "teaching truth" when it comes to fiction. If you're interested in real life, study science or history. The primary purpose of fiction is to escape from real life and to stimulate the imagination.

I think the idea of exploring concepts and ideas, rather than baseless escapism, is at the core of the purpose, even when people don't realize it themselves, and that that is part of what makes a good author and creator - a 'what if' that is presented by the author and essentially explored together. This is why "teaching moment" literature and gaming always lack the fundamental essence, the core foundation that makes people appreciate it far beyond it's own time has passed. They're trying to fulfil a set of necessary criteria, and teach a set of tenets or tenuous morals, pre-packaged and trite, not explore new concepts or vistas together.

Things that have endured, like Deus Ex and Planescape and Fallout weren't just escapism, nor did they try to merely tell us a story or teach us some point about war is bad or have no regrats or don't trust the man, man; they were explorations by the writers, and we were along for the ride.

Escapism was one of the main caracteristics of the romantic era in literature, and dont necessary is a bad thing in art, although many authors criticized this model.

But, I agree with you that Fallout and Planescape was not a mere escapism form of art. They were just a fantasy setting that dealed with topics and questions that are universal.

I dunno, I think we could just have vaguely different definitions at play here, and while escapism is obviously part of tons of literature, I don't think it's the core of the greatest works. I think the romantic era in literature is a good example, because much like most eras, we've picked and chosen the best parts of it to hold aloft in history, whereas the vast majority of works, although they helped define that era, is largely forgotten.

You could say much the same about modern-day gaming, that escapism is a big part of it, but most of the things being produced are trite bullshit. Escapism for the sake of escapism rarely interests for long, and are easily replaced by the latest thing, whereas explorative and speculative fiction has a greater tendency to inspire and be remembered. I think it could be argued that it's all forms of escapism, but I would argue that the distinction is still important. Planescape as a setting, for example, is an example of shared exploration and speculation in the confines of a given scenario and all it's various situations and possibilities given within the limitations of that, whereas Numenera as a setting is pure unadulterated escapism where absolutely anything goes, yet few would argue Numenera superior by any stretch of the imagination.

The same goes for a lot of modern-day CRPG:s. Skyrim, for example, purports to be about exploration, but it doesn't actually explore anything at all, except on a surface level. It's pure escapism, and ultimately rings hollow and is about as inspiring or thought-provoking as opening a window to an alleyway. To someone completely starved for meaningful interaction with the world, that window into the rancid alleyway is mind-blowing, but it achieves nothing a walk in the park wouldn't do better, so it's no small wonder people curl up in front of the latest hiking simulator.

Have you perhaps considered the fact that games are an entirely different medium and as such they require different storytelling than literature, namely, storytelling through gameplay, location design, soundwork etc.

There's depth to be found outside of monologues

It's incredibly sad that we have this amazing medium that showed such promise, capable of outclassing any book just by the fact that it's potentially reactive and employs dimensions simply impossible by means of de facto monologue, and yet we find ourselves now on a level that essentially fuses Cultural Marxism and Stephanie Meyer.

I agree with you, my friend. Tks for the reply. Gamming industry seems to be very shallow in its writing and presentation of the universal questions that makes a good story and plot (I am not a "true" gamer myself, and I never play recent titles, so I cant be definitive about it). However, I have the impression that the producers can do a very good job in desenvolving smart gameplays that actually are good for exercize our gray matters (at least, those very rare gems hidden in middle of the junk pile, as we know), like strategic battles, role play decisions, interaction, world mechanics, soundtracks that add to the immersion (IWD, i.e), etc.

The mechanics are certainly there, the industry just have to hire better writers to focus more in the deepness of the plot and dialogues and not just in the lore part of the game. In the other hand, gameplay wise, we still need a real system of choice and consequences in our games.

PS: sorry about my poor english.

 

[taxalot]

And most importantly , the Witcher series taught me that I should fuck as much as possible.

Hold up, you're french and you didn't already know this?

I missed at least one sex opportunity because I really wanted to play Diablo 2 that night.

 

[Luckmann]

And most importantly , the Witcher series taught me that I should fuck as much as possible.

Hold up, you're french and you didn't already know this?

I missed at least one sex opportunity because I really wanted to play Diablo 2 that night.

To be fair, Diablo 2 was pretty fucking good.

 

[Atlet]

Very good, I really want to play Ultima VII: the Black Gate. Seems to be what I am looking for.

You will need this, then: http://exult.sourceforge.net/

However, if I were you, I'd start playing from 4 onwards to get the whole feel of the series and the role of the Avatar in the series. And if you ever come across Nakar's LP of the series, that is NOT what the Avatar is about, but it is freaking hilarious for veterans of the series.

Thanks for the advice. Do you think I need any mods or other tools to enhance the experience and playability in that game? My god, the soundtrack in this game is marvellous.

Tks for the second tip too, I will think about it. But probably I will not follow that advice, because I dont have much time to play, and U7 already is a lenghty game. Therefore, I guess I will just read the plot and the whole story of the previous games.

 

[Shadenuat]

Playing is the first way after birth we learn anything about how life works, and we continue to play all our lives, sometimes pretending that what we are doing is not playing. So I'd say teaching is an inherent part of games, and games are part of life.

Also, there are probably hundred times more shitty books & movies than games, because it's just easier to write one shitty book than make one at least working and competent game even if it doesn't have PST writing in it.

 

[Bohrain]

In order to understand the eternal books vs videogames shitflinging you should first off think what supposedly makes books good in the first place.
Prose as a medium owes its strength to the ability to express meanings in literary form in a way that has the least resource constraint in terms of quantity and complexity of used expressive symbols. The obvious constraints are that it is limited to literary expressions, so you cannot use sensory cues in the realm of sound, picture, touch and whatever. And most importantly, you are presented with a pattern that doesn't chance through your interaction.
Games have the potential for audio and visual cues much like films, but what makes the medium unique is the player agency. So if you want "games to be deep like books" you are asking for a notbook to outbook a book. The point of this medium is to make something aesthetically appealing happen through player interaction.

 

[Kron]

 

[Neanderthal]

Thought first Witcher had a pretty good central message, all game long Geralt wonders about the nature of monsters, and eventually righteously slays what he thinks is a monster in person of Jacque, only to discover its little lad who he swore to protect and failed, and that lads worldview were inspired by Geralt. Never be sure, doubt yourself and others, cos we can all be monsters far too easily.

Didn't signpost it neither, just left breadcrumbs which I like.

 

[Somberlain]

Such ignorance on display. Books and movies are all fine and dandy but video games can engage you emotionally on a level non-interactive medium could never hope to do.


Mass Effect taught me what love is. Fighting with and for my true love on Normandy was an experience I could never find elsewhere.

Undertale taught me the value of life and how humanity can be found everywhere once we look past our prejudices.

Dear Esther taught me how to watch and listen. How to understand and pay attention to others instead of selfishly doing what you want all the time.

Skyrim taught me that I could be anything I ever wanted. There are no arbitrary restrictions and you can master everything if you just follow your dreams.

Minecraft and Fallout 4 taught me how to be a survivor. How to protect myself and my loved ones in a hostile world that has gone to hell.

World of Warcraft taught me the value of friendship and cooperation. Defeating a raid boss and being saved from certain death by an ally at the climax of a grueling battle at your friends' side is an experience that a book or movie could never give.


How could you ever doubt the value of video games when they are capable of teaching you so much more than old-fashioned media? Others might never understand us and the value of our favorite hobby but it's their loss. I don't care.

Because I'm a gamer. And I always will be.

 

[moraes]

The only thing RPGs have taught me is how to play RPGs, and maybe some english. On the contrary, every minute I spent playing RPGs was one less minute of pursuing Truth & Beauty in Science & Arts.

And that is fine.

 

[funkadelik]

Storyfags: The Thread.

 

[Atlet]

Whoa, I just called "friend" to someone who blame jews for the decline of western civilization !!! Hate speech is possible here?

Edit: nevermind, just saw that this forum is full of nazis and white supremacists. So sad. I will not be part of this.

In my country we use a legal doctrine, coming from the Constitucional Court of Germany, that crimininalizes hate speech. This is a very serious issue. Therefore, I will not be part of this, in respect of all the jews, and other minorities a lot of users here use to offend.

I am out.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

 

[Iznaliu]

You are not going to change my mind about safespace screaming, intolerant, virtual gangraping, racist, my-way-or-go-back-to-your-own-country shithead SJWs, so drop it before it ruins the thread.

The point I was trying to make is that you came to your conclusions via the way of Garriott's games. However, Garriott's views appear to be different from your own.

someone who blame jews for the decline of western civilization

I think the more interesting part is how he blames Jews for the decline of RPGs; I don't even know how that is even supposed to make sense.

 

[Cael]

The point I was trying to make is that you came to your conclusions via the way of Garriott's games. However, Garriott's views appear to be different from your own.

A man's personal views need not be the same as the games he produce. Do you think those people who write Evil people think like that? It is called professionalism, something that SJWs completely do not get. A game is not a political platform. It is a story and entertainment. The last time someone relied on entertainment for her political platform, she lost the 97.5% winning election.

I think the more interesting part is how he blames Jews for the decline of RPGs; I don't even know how that is even supposed to make sense.

I have always read that as sarcastic, a jibe at the morons of the world who blame Jews for everything, like using the blood of Palestinian babies to bake their Passover bread.

 

[Cael]

Thanks for the advice. Do you think I need any mods or other tools to enhance the experience and playability in that game? My god, the soundtrack in this game is marvellous.

Tks for the second tip too, I will think about it. But probably I will not follow that advice, because I dont have much time to play, and U7 already is a lenghty game. Therefore, I guess I will just read the plot and the whole story of the previous games.

If you are still reading this, the answer is No. All you need is the base game. There is little that can enhance it in terms of user friendliness, and what little there is, Exult already has them.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Books and movies aren't especially deep either. They can be, but it's not the norm. Most OMGSODEEP books and movies have pretty shitty sales figures as well and have just as many hits and misses as regular books and movies.

 

[Luckmann]

The best RPG for ethics lessons is Ultima bar none. You cannot even complete Ultima 4 without learning those lessons. Ultima 5 shows you what happens when you take those ethics lessons too far. Ultima 6 is about tolerance and seeing the other side. Ultima 7 is about seeming vs reality (the Fellowship seems to be the good guys, but boy, oh boy...)

Every last one of those lessons are things that are very relevant today for obvious reasons (i.e., leftwing progtard SJWs).

Oh no, it's almost like Richard Garriot is completely out of the loop and relies on second-hand information spoon-fed to him by interest groups and journalists, instead of actually speaking to actual gamers and looking at the facts of what transpired around Gamergate.

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!

Spoiler

Not that shocked.

 

[Cael]

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!

Spoiler

Not that shocked.

Reminds me of vulture media whores (who call themselves journalists) asking celebrities about their views on everything from science to sociology to predicting the future, and use every personal opinion of those human clothes hangers (aka models), professional liars (aka actors), striptease artists (aka female singers) and general murderous dickheads (aka rappers) as if they were the truth. Seriously, they run up to a celebrity and ask for their opinion, and the celebrity must answer to their satisfaction or be pilloried (see Stephen Baldwin, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Clint Eastwood, etc.).

That is not reporting the news or even the opinions of your subject. That is creating news and forcing compliance or face defamation. To be honest, I cannot see Richard Garriott saying anything else, ESPECIALLY where Gamergate is concerned. If he had decried the SJW manipulation of public opinion, he would have been attacked on every media on the planet. Not only him, but his family and anyone connected to him. That is the main problem with the SJW virtual pack rapists.

 

[aweigh]

i don't see any obstacle preventing a video game writer from making characters on the level of the ones in a Charles Dickens novel or a Dostoevsky novel or, hell, lowering the bar a little at least on the level of a D.H. Lawrence or Edith Warton novel.

i think it has more to do with the fact that even among the mediums of lit and film those above examples are the exception to the rule and "learning life lessons" or whatever shit from a novel or from watching a film is something that happens rarely as 99.5% of the output from those two mediums does not rise above the lowest common denominator.

i can definitely see games, and I don't necessarily mean RPGs, becoming more literate and competent in their presentation of the author's ideas, sure.

Of "recent" games I would say the game KENTUCKY ROUTE ZERO (an indie adv. game split into 4 chapters, currently being cited by the devs of NO TRUCE W/ THE FURIES as their inspiration) is the best example of a very literate and intelligent game with proper stakes and themes and a sure authorial contract.

KRZ is a gem of a game and I advise eveyrone to go play the chapters.

 

[Gregz]

Have you perhaps considered the fact that games are an entirely different medium and as such they require different storytelling than literature, namely, storytelling through gameplay, location design, soundwork etc.

There's depth to be found outside of monologues

Agree, let the atmosphere tell the story. Print is dead.

 

[Iznaliu]

A man's personal views need not be the same as the games he produce. Do you think those people who write Evil people think like that? It is called professionalism, something that SJWs completely do not get. A game is not a political platform. It is a story and entertainment. The last time someone relied on entertainment for her political platform, she lost the 97.5% winning election.

Richard Garriott obviously felt quite passionate about the views that he was putting in the game, as shown by the abrupt change from Ultima 3 to 4.

I have always read that as sarcastic, a jibe at the morons of the world who blame Jews for everything, like using the blood of Palestinian babies to bake their Passover bread.

He seems to be quite serious about it with the conversations I've had with him.

Oh no, it's almost like Richard Garriot is completely out of the loop and relies on second-hand information spoon-fed to him by interest groups and journalists, instead of actually speaking to actual gamers and looking at the facts of what transpired around Gamergate.

If he just got information second-hand, he wouldn't really be qualified to write an article in the New York Times, would he? Additionally, there are some gamers that don't support GamerGate because they've looked at the facts differently.

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!

I know it's shocking that people can look at the facts and come to a different opinion from you.

Reminds me of vulture media whores (who call themselves journalists) asking celebrities about their views on everything from science to sociology to predicting the future, and use every personal opinion of those human clothes hangers (aka models), professional liars (aka actors), striptease artists (aka female singers) and general murderous dickheads (aka rappers) as if they were the truth. Seriously, they run up to a celebrity and ask for their opinion, and the celebrity must answer to their satisfaction or be pilloried (see Stephen Baldwin, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Clint Eastwood, etc.).

Free speech comes with free criticism. Garriott, unlike you, is able to handle that criticism.

To be honest, I cannot see Richard Garriott saying anything else, ESPECIALLY where Gamergate is concerned. If he had decried the SJW manipulation of public opinion, he would have been attacked on every media on the planet. Not only him, but his family and anyone connected to him. That is the main problem with the SJW virtual pack rapists.

He stood up to people who would have thought that his games were crap and his dreams unrealistic (e.g. his family), and is quite involved in political activism for the Democratic Party. I don't think he would sell his convictions out like that.