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Decline The Demise of the American RPG: Why So Few Top US RPGs?

Humanophage

Arcane
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,033
Here is the Codex top for 2012-2016: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OU54a4aImTEdR8pIXNDs0rPyAA/edit#gid=180679672

Top-50 games with the country where the key developers reside:
1 . The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Poland
2 . Age of Decadence - Canada / International
3 . Divinity: Original Sin - Belgium
4 . Underrail - Serbia
5 . Dark Souls - Japan
6 . Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut - US (Northwest)
7 . Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen - Japan
8 . NEO Scavenger - Canada
9 . Legend of Grimrock II - Finland
10 . FTL - US (Northwest)
11 . Fallout 1.5: Resurrection - Czech Rep.
12 . Dark Souls III - Japan
13 . Shadowrun: Hong Kong - US (Northwest)
14 . Valkyria Chronicles - Japan
15 . Expedition: Conquistador - Denmark
16 . Dark Souls II - Japan
17 . Dungeon Rats - Canada / International
18 . Xenonauts - UK
19 . Heroine's Quest: The Herald of Ragnarok - International
20 . Legend of Grimrock - Finland
21 . Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME) - France
22 . Invisible, Inc. - Canada
23 . Pillars of Eternity - US (California)
24 . Wasteland 2 - US (California)
25 . Lords of Xulima - Spain
26 . Shadowrun: Returns - US (Northwest)
27 . Stardew Valley - US (Northwest)
28 . Blackguards - Germany
29 . Might and Magic X: Legacy - Germany
30 . Grim Dawn - US (Mass.)
31 . South Park: The Stick of Truth - US (California)
32 . Steve Jackson's Sorcery! - UK
33 . Path of Exile - New Zealand
34 . Voidspire Tactics - ?
35 . Serpent in the Staglands - US (?)
36 . LISA - US (?)
37 . Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - US (?)
38 . Thea: The Awakening - UK / Poland
39 . Stranger of Sword City - Japan
40 . The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky - Japan
41 . The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC - Japan
42 . Darkest Dungeon - Canada
43 . Salt and Sanctuary - US
44 . Tyranny - US (California)
45 . The Banner Saga - US (Texas)
46 . Paper Sorcerer - ?
47 . Hard West - Poland
48 . Elminage: Gothic - Japan
49 . Deus Ex: Mankind Divided - Canada
50 . Quest for Infamy - US (New York)

There may be some mild inaccuracies (i.e., I presume there is an unspecified amount of international cooperation), but you get the picture.

To add 2017, ELEX - Germany, Battle Brothers - Germany / International, Expeditions: Viking - Denmark, Dominions 5 - Sweden, Grimoire - Australia (ex-US?), Nier: Automata - Japan, Nioh - Japan. There are also Torment: Tides of Numenera - US (California), South Park: The Fractured but Whole - US (California), and Mass Effect: Andromeda - Canada, but they are poorly rated.

As you can see, there are only three American games in the top-20, and two come from the same company (FTL is hardly an RPG, but move it to strategies if you wish). It gets somewhat better below the top-20, but it is still profoundly underwhelming, especially compared to the amazing historical output of the US until the mid-00s.

It seems to hold true for other genres well-liked at the Codex, such as intelligent strategy games. Most released games with non-tiny threads from the first and second page of the strategy section:
GalCiv III, Starcraft II, Banished, Civilization VI, Offworld Trading Company - US
CK2, HoI, Victoria, EU, Stellaris, Dominions - Sweden
Rimworld, Homeworld, Halcyon 6: Starbase Commander, Dawn of War 3 - Canada
Gary Grigsby's War In The East, Total War: Warhammer 2, Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach, Total War: Rome II, Field of Glory II - UK
AoWIII, Oriental Empires - Netherlands
Factorio - Czech Rep.
King's Bounty, Eador - Russia
Cities: Skylines - Finland
SpellForce 3 - Austria
Endless Space 2, Endless Legends - France
Ultimate General: Civil War - Ukraine
HoMM7 - Germany

Age of Empires, Heroes of Might and Magic II & IV, Warcraft III, Alpha Centauri, King of Dragon Pass are American, but pretty old.

What do you think are the reasons for such poor performance from the US? It appears that it has never really recovered from the decline.
 
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Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Now do Anglosphere/Rest instead of US/Rest (you can put Montreal/Quebec under Rest)
 

Father Foreskin

Learned
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
167
The rest of the western world will catch up in retardation eventually. Some selected reasons for the decline in rpg and million other things

1. Death of viable public education
2. Instant gratifacation culture
3. A diet consisting of sugar and grease blocking the thought process
4. Glorification of airheads such as Mama June and Kim Kardashian
5. "Gender" redefined fat cows with pink hair and soy-fed homos.

The downfall of intelligent gaming is not some separate issue from the downfall of everything. United states is just the flagbearer.
 

Humanophage

Arcane
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,033
Now do Anglosphere/Rest instead of US/Rest (you can put Montreal/Quebec under Rest)
But why? The point is that something is amiss in the US specifically, and it is far less bad in Canada and the UK (which does well with strategies), whose input is commensurate with their size and perhaps even impressive in Canada's case (though mostly thanks to VD). In fact, the Pacific Northwest is doing somewhat well, which makes the total lack of anything else even more dramatic. I mean, sure:
1 . The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - rest
2 . Age of Decadence - anglo
3 . Divinity: Original Sin - rest
4 . Underrail - rest
5 . Dark Souls - rest
6 . Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut - anglo
7 . Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen - rest
8 . NEO Scavenger - anglo
9 . Legend of Grimrock II - rest
10 . FTL - anglo
11 . Fallout 1.5: Resurrection - rest
12 . Dark Souls III - rest
13 . Shadowrun: Hong Kong - anglo
14 . Valkyria Chronicles - rest
15 . Expedition: Conquistador - rest
16 . Dark Souls II - rest
17 . Dungeon Rats - anglo
18 . Xenonauts - anglo
19 . Heroine's Quest: The Herald of Ragnarok - anglo
20 . Legend of Grimrock - rest
21 . Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME) - rest
22 . Invisible, Inc. - anglo
23 . Pillars of Eternity - anglo
24 . Wasteland 2 - anglo
25 . Lords of Xulima - rest
26 . Shadowrun: Returns - anglo
27 . Stardew Valley - anglo
28 . Blackguards - rest
29 . Might and Magic X: Legacy - rest
30 . Grim Dawn - anglo
31 . South Park: The Stick of Truth - anglo
32 . Steve Jackson's Sorcery! - anglo
33 . Path of Exile - anglo
34 . Voidspire Tactics - anglo
35 . Serpent in the Staglands - anglo
36 . LISA - anglo
37 . Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - anglo
38 . Thea: The Awakening - rest
39 . Stranger of Sword City - rest
40 . The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky - rest
41 . The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC - rest
42 . Darkest Dungeon - anglo
43 . Salt and Sanctuary - anglo
44 . Tyranny - anglo
45 . The Banner Saga - anglo
46 . Paper Sorcerer - rest
47 . Hard West - rest
48 . Elminage: Gothic - rest
49 . Deus Ex: Mankind Divided - anglo
50 . Quest for Infamy - anglo
20% top-5 are Anglo
33% top-15 are Anglo
44% top-25 are Anglo
56% top-50 are Anglo (due to Thea and the unknown developers of Paper Sorcerer, which I put down as 0.5)

There aren't any Quebec games there, by the way (unless VD is from QC). Montreal seems about 50% Anglo to me, too.

The rest of the western world will catch up in retardation eventually. Some selected reasons for the decline in rpg and million other things

1. Death of viable public education
2. Instant gratifacation culture
3. A diet consisting of sugar and grease blocking the thought process
4. Glorification of airheads such as Mama June and Kim Kardashian
5. "Gender" redefined fat cows with pink hair and soy-fed homos.

The downfall of intelligent gaming is not some separate issue from the downfall of everything. United states is just the flagbearer.
I'd argue that Canada is more of a flag-bearer for some of that, but it is doing reasonably well, even though it does also produce spectacular ideologically wrecked rubbish like Mass Effect. Sweden is also famously flawed, but a strategy superpower thanks to Paradox.

I think it is more to do with shaming, perhaps, so that if you are intelligent, you must be doing something business-oriented with it rather than indulge in cultural pastimes. This was less palpable in the past when the 'US nerd' culture was less exposed to the business world and generally shielded from public opinion through its arcane status. Nowadays, if you are already not doing 'something useful', it is irrelevant whether the game you are playing is smart or dumb; you are just 'playing video games', like 'watching movies' (regardless of whether it is Eisenstein or the latest Iron Man). That is a wild guess.

I do think it has to be something cultural in addition to the obvious economic argument that people in poorer Eastern Euro countries had to play older games due to worse gaming rigs, so games grew outdated at a much slower pace. In addition, it is possible that they had a better selection of games due to piracy, so indie games were almost in the same position as AAA games. However, while it does explain elite East Euro gaming habits, it does not fly for Germany, Sweden, or Canada, which are producing good games in spite of economic similarity to the US.
 
Last edited:

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
I think part of the explanation is that US developers became complacent with their success and failed to take risks; and when they realised they were behind, they took risks that were ill-advised (a classic example would be New World Computing) However, let's also note that US developers are making RPGs that do have an impact (e.g. Skyrim); it's just that the Codex aren't huge fans of them, though this line of reasoning isn't that strong as the gulf between Codex opinion and public opinion isn't as strong as people here would like to think.

Another prominent factor is the increasingly global nature of the gaming industry; in the early 80's, the European gaming industry was largely seperate from the US's and didn't produce much in the way of RPGs; however, increased exposure to RPGs, inspired by American trends (though with a local touch), changed that, leading to games such as Gothic and the Realms of Arkania series, along with JRPGs. Even still, these weren't that well-known in the US, and it's only within the past 5-10 years, with the advent of digital distribution, that gaming has became truely global. This links back in to my initial point about complacency; lack of foreign competition was arguably one of the key drivers of this.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
1. Console gaming took over the US market. CRPGs never recovered, because they were designed with a mouse in mind. In Europe, the console revolution wasn't nearly as complete, and in Germany and Eastern Europe specifically, PC gaming remained significant for decades after it became irrelevant in the US.

2. The console revolution in the US also killed off mainstream strategy games, except for a few companies like Blizzard who can release almost anything and it will sell.

3. Corporate culture in the US is much more cut throat than in UK and Canada. Investors and suits only care about profits and returns. Until crowd funding came along, publishers believed CRPGs were dead.

Basically, CRPG developers in the US could not transition successfully to the console space, because their game design formats and philosophies were heavily dependent on a personal computer environment.

By contrast, JRPGs survived the console transition just fine because they were, in a sense, always designed for consoles in mind due to the gaming culture in Japan.

You'll find that, except in the case of multiplayer games, console gaming practically controls the US market. In recent years, mobile gaming has also become popular, but this is casual gaming, not the sort the Codex would care about.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
Lol only a third of the listed US games are good. Tranny and Wastetime 2 are hardly a top 50 games.

The reason why is that america is a dumpster fire of higher magnitude. Father Foreskin is pretty much on point.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
As a programmer, I can speculate at least partially why. The salary for a programmer at a game studio is absolutely horrid. I'd be looking at less than half of my current salary at a medical devices company if I were to take a senior developer position at a game studio, along with worse benefits and likely a lot more stress. If you look at pretty much any other tech company list, USA will completely dominate the top companies.

OTOH, salaries for programmers outside of USA are typically far lower across the board so it might not be such a significant difference.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,367
Pathfinder: Wrath
Simple answer is there is no market of "good american RPGs" or just good RPG at that.

Most of the video games companies in USA are big. Why bother creating a masterpiece that sells for 200k copies in 2 years while FPS and action games could sell millions? Not to mention the RPG crowds are the most bitchy of the video games crowd, being literally un-pleaseable, with most of them being old farts (30+ in age) where there is no future market for them, developing good RPGs arent as profitable. You need to realize that when creating products in big corporation you don't only think "Hey this game could sells" but "Hey do these kind of games for these gamers segment will be sustainable for the next 5 - 10 years?"

If you see the Top 50 lists, Japan is there because of Japan. jRPG is a genre for a reason. Even then Japanese (or Asian in that regards) are moving more on mobage instead of premium console/pc games.

With few exceptions (TW3, Deus Ex HR) most of the games in the top 50 are by indie or at most AA developer who've been developing these games for a long while on found their niche (inxile, Obsidian).
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
As a programmer, I can speculate at least partially why. The salary for a programmer at a game studio is absolutely horrid. I'd be looking at less than half of my current salary at a medical devices company if I were to take a senior developer position at a game studio, along with worse benefits and likely a lot more stress. If you look at pretty much any other tech company list, USA will completely dominate the top companies.

OTOH, salaries for programmers outside of USA are typically far lower across the board so it might not be such a significant difference.

As sad as this may sound, this isn't a problem, because there are always programmers who will throw themselves at game companies even with the low pay, for no reason other than the desire to be involved with the genre they love. You are paid twice as much in a medical devices company because the demand doesn't match the supply - programmers don't want to go to medical devices companies, because they figure it's boring and they wouldn't enjoy their work. They'd rather join up with game companies and work 12 hours a day with no over time pay, and that's how the industry worked.

Besides which, most development companies these days don't even make their own engines. They use engines developed by third parties and those companies take care of the advanced, demanding technical work. So the standard for programmers is also lower, more guys get hired directly out of high school or college, leading to naturally worse benefits.

Tell kids to stop dreaming about becoming video game developers, and this might change, but as it is, too many desperate graduates out there. It's almost like a drug. You get kids addicted to video games, and later they go into programming or art to try and join the industry, and then you work them like slaves. Ever heard about the concept of doing what you have passion for? That's what most people in the US grow up hearing. That's what leads to the huge supply of people trying to enter entertainment - and the corresponding low demand, and poor treatment.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,296
As you can see, there are only three American games in the top-20, and two come from the same company (FTL is hardly an RPG, but move it to strategies if you wish). It gets somewhat better below the top-20, but it is still profoundly underwhelming, especially compared to the amazing historical output of the US until the mid-00s.
What do you think are the reasons for such poor performance from the US? It appears that it has never really recovered from the decline.
American, Russian, all made in China!
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
I blame the SJW movement, specifically the SJW writers for game. The SJW in other departments are bad enough but writings can be insufferable.

That's right.

Writing in RPG is something that is impossible to fix once it's released. Simply impossible.

And SJW writers alienate the right-wing gamers, even discounting the bad writings.

So good games become mediocre, mediocre become outright intolerable. Just because we dont like some shithead texts.

As for SJW-bias decision in non-writing aspect of the game, I refer specifically to Mass Effect Andromeda. The first thing coming into the game hit you between the eye is that you can NOT make a non-negroid character face. FUCK YOU! I dont want my char has negroid features. It is built in and you can not edit it out despite doing the customize. Even a pure asian design, or pure aryan, still show some of that.

It irked me to be force fed SJW propaganda. I refuse to play that piece of shit until we can mod some custom face in. Something that is not containing negroid features, just to spite those fuckers.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,296
It irked me to be force fed SJW propaganda. I refuse to play that piece of shit until we can mod some custom face in. Something that is not containing negroid features, just to spite those fuckers.
Why bother buying then modding it? Hit the bastards where it hurts most: in the hip pocket. Boycott not only that game but every offering coming out of that developer until they die a horrible death.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,296
Dude! Explore in another universe! Alien planet!

It's like something very fun.

Until the SJW start flying right and left.
Go play Planet's Edge. Now. And don't come back until you can at least tell me where to find your first set of ship plans.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
I blame the SJW movement, specifically the SJW writers for game. The SJW in other departments are bad enough but writings can be insufferable.

That's right.

Writing in RPG is something that is impossible to fix once it's released. Simply impossible.

And SJW writers alienate the right-wing gamers, even discounting the bad writings.

So good games become mediocre, mediocre become outright intolerable. Just because we dont like some shithead texts.

As for SJW-bias decision in non-writing aspect of the game, I refer specifically to Mass Effect Andromeda. The first thing coming into the game hit you between the eye is that you can NOT make a non-negroid character face. FUCK YOU! I dont want my char has negroid features. It is built in and you can not edit it out despite doing the customize. Even a pure asian design, or pure aryan, still show some of that.

It irked me to be force fed SJW propaganda. I refuse to play that piece of shit until we can mod some custom face in. Something that is not containing negroid features, just to spite those fuckers.
7590.jpg



Joke aside i agree with you .
 

Molina

Savant
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
363
I blame the SJW movement, specifically the SJW writers for game. The SJW in other departments are bad enough but writings can be insufferable.

That's right.

Writing in RPG is something that is impossible to fix once it's released. Simply impossible.

And SJW writers alienate the right-wing gamers, even discounting the bad writings.

So good games become mediocre, mediocre become outright intolerable. Just because we dont like some shithead texts.

As for SJW-bias decision in non-writing aspect of the game, I refer specifically to Mass Effect Andromeda. The first thing coming into the game hit you between the eye is that you can NOT make a non-negroid character face. FUCK YOU! I dont want my char has negroid features. It is built in and you can not edit it out despite doing the customize. Even a pure asian design, or pure aryan, still show some of that.

It irked me to be force fed SJW propaganda. I refuse to play that piece of shit until we can mod some custom face in. Something that is not containing negroid features, just to spite those fuckers.
Sorry, I lose my book of anthropolgy from 1868 ""Bringing the values of the French Republic to primitive peoples". So, what is a "negroïd" face ?
 

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