Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,037
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Chris Avellone
In a previous post you mentioned the ideas you (and others) pitched that Obsidian will never use, but will retain. Are there any that you would consider a real 'baby' that would be worth revisiting/reworking in the future? And do you think Obsidian mangement would come after you / would any idea be worth it if they did?.

I'm sure the gaming community are behind you with whatever you do in the future, and all the best to you and you family.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,123
Let's just keep Project Indiana out of this, shall we? If we're all itching so much for a new Tim&Leo game, what's the purpose of trying to damage their standing with Take2? You're also opening yourself up for a libel suit a size of Titanic. And you didn't actually work on Indiana, correct Chris? You have someone leaking you information, and if it's a small team that person will be identified swiftly.

This is bad sport and it's not good for anybody.

Are you serious? I don't ever think Tim and Leonard jeopardize a relationship with Take2, but I would 100% believe the upper management owners at Obsidian would fuck it up with their additions and requests, based on experience that I've seen while I was there. Even the owner who was Lead Programmer went off the project b/c he, true to form, likely wasn't doing what a Lead Programmer should do.

So you're trying to save Project Indiana, by alienating Obsidian with people who are paying for Project Indiana? Do you realize how absurd that sounds?

Sorry, but I can't be silent unless I hear a compelling counter-argument: And I've seen what Obsidian can do first-hand, even when they LIKE a publisher. It's not something you would support unless you are a much different person than you seem to be.

Also, I would argue that it would be good if Tim and Leonard were directly financed by Take2 and Feargus went off to the pauper's corner and reaped no benefit from Tim and Leonard's work (I felt the same way about Fallout 1 and 2)

Oh, I would love if Tim and Leonard were directly financed and had no oversight from anybody. But that's not what will happen if you're successful in damaging Take 2's relationship with Obsidian owners. How do you imagine that working? Take 2 people show up, slam the conference table, and say, Jones, Parker and Urquhart, you are useless parasites, get out, we're now working directly with the team?

No, if there's an erosion of trust between the client and the company, that erosion of trust impacts entire organization from top to bottom. All that happens is the client pulls out. So if you're actually successful in "saving Indiana", what happens is Indiana gets cancelled and people get sacked, including the friend of yours who is feeding you information.

And in the aftermath, in all likelihood you get to deal with a libel lawsuit which would be pretty hard to dismiss.

. I'm not being spiteful, but I am being dismissive with good reason - I doubt any of the owners have much to do the game being well-received by Take2. If you want to fight me on this, it will likely be useless, though, unless others speak out (beyond Glassdoor, that is). Shall we let time tell how this shakes out? My verdict: The game will be great, and it won't be due to the Obsidian owners, but the team who worked on it.

Yep, you're probably right. The game will most likely come out, it will most likely be great, and owners will most likely have nothing to do with its success. And that's a preferable outcome to leaking some internal development drama, getting the whole thing in trouble and making everybody involved miserable.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,662
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
, I'm not a journalist
But you gotta admit, journalist would be a good cover for your Mossad jobs.

Even Infinitron is more of a journalist than most of the gaming press.

It's worth remembering that Chris has to sift through reams of bullshit and nonsensical opinions originating from many dozens of users, without the advantage of being intimately acquainted with the regulars or forum culture. Can't expect him to track individual users from one sheaf of pages to the next, to know all of Infinitron's backstory, or to realize, for example, that I'm just shitposting as usual (which I've been doing the entire thread) and not seriously accusing him of antisemitism. :lol:

Great thread so far. If the further revelations hinted at in earlier pages are forthcoming soon, it might become even greater.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,662
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
And in the aftermath, in all likelihood you get to deal with a libel lawsuit which would be pretty hard to dismiss.

It's not libel if true, and the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff. I don't need to be a legal expert to know (and confirm) that; it's very fundamental stuff.

In other words, they must prove that Chris has been spreading untruths in order to win a libel suit.
 

Plane Escapee

Your friend
Patron
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
221
Location
chair
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm extremely pleased to hear that Chris Avellone is working on something similar to King of Dragon Pass. Kudos to the guy who triggered that response. I wish more RPGs be made where you take the role of a group or a community rather than an individual...

Chris Avellone if you ever have time for it, I'd love to hear you elaborate on what you found compelling about KoDP and your general experiences with the game.
 

Bohrain

Liturgist
Patron
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,442
Location
norf
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I'm not so enthusiastic about this unionization thing.
What if Feargus' relatives form their own union and kicking them out becomes an impossibility even if Feargus manages to sell the company?
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,837
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
tfw senpai won't acknowledge your posts but it's ok cause he'll always be senpai
16094bp.jpg
 

Bohr

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
1,878
I'm not so enthusiastic about this unionization thing.
What if Feargus' relatives form their own union and kicking them out becomes an impossibility even if Feargus manages to sell the company?

Although would anyone notice if they all went on strike?
 

Kruno

Arcane
Patron
Village Idiot Zionist Agent Shitposter
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,478
WOW! You guys are getting Chris riled up and annoyed now. Leave the poor man alone for at least 24 hours. Let us go and bother Sawyer for a while, eh?
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,214
WOW! You guys are getting Chris riled up and annoyed now. Leave the poor man alone for at least 24 hours. Let us go and bother Sawyer for a while, eh?

I bothered him already, if he'd reply...
 

Plane Escapee

Your friend
Patron
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
221
Location
chair
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Even Infinitron is more of a journalist than most of the gaming press.

It's worth remembering that Chris has to sift through reams of bullshit and nonsensical opinions originating from many dozens of users, without the advantage of being intimately acquainted with the regulars or forum culture. Can't expect him to track individual users from one sheaf of pages to the next, to know all of Infinitron's backstory, or to realize, for example, that I'm just shitposting as usual (which I've been doing the entire thread) and not seriously accusing him of antisemitism. :lol:

Great thread so far. If the further revelations hinted at in earlier pages are forthcoming soon, it might become even greater.
I think it is more a case of him having to stress the fact because we live in an era where guilt by association is a mainstream belief (across the spectrum) and persons with the IQ of an amoeba are already accusing him of being an "Alt-Righter Literal Nazi" on several of the other sites that are lurking this thread, despite everything that the guy has ever said and done points to the contrary.

If I was a public figure I would feel the need to do the same, whether or not I got that it was a joke and whether or not I found it funny within the context that it was delivered.
 
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
1,301
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Orma said:

What Marxists won't tell you is that when your country is unionised, business owners are punished for making wealth, the production is severely compromised and your economy goes to shit. In Brazil, employees are protected by all kinds of absurd rights and as a consequence private enterprises have no incentives to make wealth and stay as far away from here as possible. They go to wherever is the country where free market is taken at little more seriously, but not here. Consequently, we lose all the jobs and services that would make our lives better and the economy is in bad shape. For instance, in Brazil any pregnant employee can’t be fired, by law. I know a girl that got pregnant and then stop going to work. She is doing this for seven months and their bosses can’t do anything, they need to keep paying her. If they decide to fire her, she can earn a fortune by suing. If you hire a person with no prior experience to qualify him for the job but keep him unregistered to avoid the minimum wage laws he can simply stop working. If you fire him, he can go to court and cost you an arm and a leg.

The system lives and breaths marxism and business owners are punished for the simple right to exist. The absurd taxes, regulations, employee rights… it seems that the world conspire against you to open a business. Consequently, most ambitious people avoid business and the private sector as the plague and aim for a secure government job, which is usually inefficient, expensive, not regulated by the laws of offer and demand, and all that at the expenses of the taxpayers. Trying to inspire the US to unionise is like asking them to become a backwater country like Brazil. It sounds morally ennobling on the internet theory, but has only bad adverse effects on practice. The impulses that motivate Feargus to adopt nepotism and dissimulation will never disappear because of unions. Instead, you will just make unions more profitable than game development and you will have a bunch of little Fearguses breathing on the government’s neck to impose even more bad policy on business and the ones who really produce. Trust me, this marxist feelgoodism only makes things worse, much worse. I live in the word created by this marxist propaganda and it is not pretty.
 
Last edited:

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
And in the aftermath, in all likelihood you get to deal with a libel lawsuit which would be pretty hard to dismiss.

It's not libel if true, and the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff. I don't need to be a legal expert to know (and confirm) that; it's very fundamental stuff.

In other words, they must prove that Chris has been spreading untruths in order to win a libel suit.
Truth is often a defense, but it may not make much of a difference if said defense is dependent on obtaining emails that are now "lost" or on oral statements made in meetings with "owners" that now hate your guts. I recall Chris said he put everything to email after a while, but did he keep those emails?
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
So you're trying to save Project Indiana, by alienating Obsidian with people who are paying for Project Indiana? Do you realize how absurd that sounds?



Oh, I would love if Tim and Leonard were directly financed and had no oversight from anybody. But that's not what will happen if you're successful in damaging Take 2's relationship with Obsidian owners. How do you imagine that working? Take 2 people show up, slam the conference table, and say, Jones, Parker and Urquhart, you are useless parasites, get out, we're now working directly with the team?

No, if there's an erosion of trust between the client and the company, that erosion of trust impacts entire organization from top to bottom. All that happens is the client pulls out. So if you're actually successful in "saving Indiana", what happens is Indiana gets cancelled and people get sacked, including the friend of yours who is feeding you information.

And in the aftermath, in all likelihood you get to deal with a libel lawsuit which would be pretty hard to dismiss.



Yep, you're probably right. The game will most likely come out, it will most likely be great, and owners will most likely have nothing to do with its success. And that's a preferable outcome to leaking some internal development drama, getting the whole thing in trouble and making everybody involved miserable.

So Nick, I’m starting to get a bit suspicious, but I’ll answer your questions, because you are arguing for Obsidian, and not the game itself. Bear with me, though.

First off, I don’t believe Indiana needs “saving.” I’m going to guess (based on the developers I know and respect because I've worked with them and know they do quality work) that it’s being done well. Do I have proof of this? No. Do I think it’s likely? Sure. Do I think you know jackshit? Nope, but you’re welcome to say otherwise.

I am also glad you agree with me that if Tim and Leonard were directly financed we would all love it. I do feel, strongly, that if it came down to it, Take2 would grab that team if they suspected serious Obsidian misfeasance, and then support them to get the game done. Do I genuinely believe someone like Feargus is making the game better, day by day? Fuck no, but admittedly, based on my own experience. Shit, Feargus used to hide bugs he didn't want fixed from me, I have no respect for the man.

I don’t “imagine” anything working. I do imagine what life would be like if the tumor(s) were excised, which is something every game dev in a bad situation wonders about. What if I was free to make the game I wanted? We (devs) all wonder it.

It’s not libel if you can prove it, and unfortunately, according to what I have (and I don't even need to examine things from Obsidian's side), Feargus made a mistake and didn’t hide his (own) cost padding. If he doesn’t own up to this, I’m happy to keep bringing it up, but it wasn’t Tim and Leonard’s doing – it was, unsurprisingly, Feargus, who gets greedy and entitled from time to time. To time. To time and again. If you want to defend Feargus or want to inform where the problem lies, please go ahead, I’ll listen to you... as long as you provide facts.

The only other thing I have to say is that while you agree the owners will likely have no part in the game’s success, what genuinely bothers me is the fact, they will, absolutely, be able to divert the reward to their own financial success, regardless of what the team did. Let me know (only hypothetically, since the game isn’t released), if you would agree that's fair. I don't. I’d be mad as all hell, just as I thought it was unfair the owners got the majority of Pillars 1 royalty profits vs. the people who made the game happen, especially since some of the owners were barely involved in PoE1, but still got most of the money when the royalties rolled in.

- Signed, ihaveatinynick
 

Country_Gravy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Messages
3,406
Location
Up Yours
Wasteland 2
Paging Chris Avellone in a Chris Avellone thread.

This is epicness on a Chris Avellone scale.

Thanks for sharing all this great info with us lowly Codexers. Getting a perspective on these types of inner workings of a studio from someone like you is insightful and compelling. Too bad business is still business and people are fucking each other over constantly. I hope you continue to be involved in many great projects with people that aren't complete assholes.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,559
Location
Denmark
Chris Avellone You mentioned your talks with Brian Fargo and your work on WL2, have you been in talks with Brian about WL3? Can you deny or confirm your involvement with the game or otherwise share any info?

/Cheers ! :)
 
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
1,301
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Look at this sad fuck cutting off 90% of the post of a native who actually knows what he's talking about in order to push his propaganda.

Agree komret, the peasants should be compelled, one way or another (extreme poverty is proven wery effectiv), to remain in one place performing their state-assigned work for minimum of two to three decades in order to ensure "stability." Besides, turnip and potato shop same everywhere, why need move to different frozen concrete shithole in glorious Soviet Russia?
Yep. Let's unionize Atlantic City so it become like a backwater state of a backwater country. This sounds such a great idea. Moral exhibitionism on the internet is a mental virus.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Chris Avellone You mentioned your talks with Brian Fargo and your work on WL2, have you been in talks with Brian about WL3? Can you deny or confirm your involvement with the game or otherwise share any info?

/Cheers ! :)

Yes, I've been doing work on WL3, and my work incorporates some of the high-level design elements from Fallout: Van Buren (I say "some" because I proposed some elements, and then George made them better, so I feel he rightfully deserves the credit).

Also, not to gush too much, but working with George again is great, as always, he's a great lead, and I loved working with him on Mask of the Betrayer.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom