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People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

Big Wrangle

Guest
The industry the industry.
Meh, the recent conversations about the state of the industry are still worthwhile. Unlike the film industry, which itself has its problems, there is no union. Expecting a non-shitty environment isn't entitlment, it's a reasonable thought. Big names talking about this, like Josh himself and burnt out veterans, is what's gonna make this pick up. The average worker doesn't speak about shitty conditions because they get laughed at. It's better to slowly acknowledge the problem than just roll over and die, this isn't magic but an effort is there.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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28,237
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
As if. Hes on revenge mode and throws shit at everybody that he ever worked with. There are opinions that stated things a little differently "Fenstermarker..." Its only his story, nobody can say what its true about it and what are lies. So it will change shit in the industry. Its just unproffessional
S
Hey guys I found another obsidian dev!
 

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
As if. Hes on revenge mode and throws shit at everybody that he ever worked with. There are opinions that stated things a little differently "Fenstermarker..." Its only his story, nobody can say what its true about it and what are lies. So it will change shit in the industry. Its just unproffessional
S
Hey guys I found another obsidian dev!

Tag him!
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
As if. Hes on revenge mode and throws shit at everybody that he ever worked with. There are opinions that stated things a little differently "Fenstermarker..." Its only his story, nobody can say what its true about it and what are lies. So it will change shit in the industry. Its just unproffessional
I'm not against the drama, but one thing I'm afraid of is that this will hurt Chris on the long run. I hope he knows what he is doing and confident that this won't fire back.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I'm not saying Henkel is right about everything but neither is Chris.But everybody here acts if hes writing the holy bible again or something. This is just cringeworthy.

And you suffer a critical reading failure if you believe everybody here believes everything MCA says (just ask Blaine)

lol wat

Blaine was defending Obsidian?

Well, I guess when you go retard you go full retard.

Also, jaydee2k, how does Feargus' cock taste?
Why so much butthurt over a shit company getting a bit poked in the sides? Doesn't even matter if it's overblown, there's way too much cocksucking in this industry, probably more than in any other, something like this is fucking refreshing.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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Not taking MCA at his words means defending Obsidian? Why are you so fucking stupid?
 

Big Wrangle

Guest
I'm not against the drama, but one thing I'm afraid of is that this will hurt Chris on the long run. I hope he knows what he is doing and confident that this won't fire back.
I asked him about that a while ago:
Chris Avellone said:
If hypothetically, the game industry is an overall "no" next year, I could relax for 200+ years and not worry about a thing. Even my funeral is paid for.

I don't have many expenses, and I don't need to work anymore - I work because I love writing for games, so I do. Shocking, I know, but... yes, it's the truth.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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Should we be worried he already paid for his funeral, or is this a very normal American thing to do?
 

Flou

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Not taking MCA at his words means defending Obsidian? Why are you so fucking stupid?

Most people just accept what ever they hear as facts. Whether it is Putin's propaganda, US fake news or some rumour they hear. They take it as a fact and don't even bother thinking about the thing on their own. And if someone disagrees with them, stone them.
 

MechMessiah

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The industry the industry. Hes shitting at Obsidian thats all.

So you think that when you are literally blackmailed - that's a good practice of average boss?
I think that for that you can "poluchit' v ebalo" at the best. But it's "civilized" America, so you can be sued for open your mouth.
 

Ulrox

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Messages
363
I'm not against the drama, but one thing I'm afraid of is that this will hurt Chris on the long run. I hope he knows what he is doing and confident that this won't fire back.

I tried to explain the whole MCA stuff to one of my IRL friends, and his natural response was just to believe that Chris sounded like a horrible person. If you don't know MCA and you love obsidian, you're very likely to think that I think. So in that way I do think it can backfire for sure.
 

Monocause

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Aug 15, 2008
Messages
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Hes after revenge and not about industry working conditions. Fist fight with Fergie and Parker seems more appropriate to me.

Having spent three years in the hugely exploitative games industry I can say that the only reason I have never spawned a thread like this is because of the NDAs, and once those were void (although the way the contract was phrased I'm not sure if they ever went void) it was far beyond the time to stir shit up in any constructive way.

What MCA is doing is really an intake of fresh air into an industry that's operating on quite a mafia like basis. Studios regularly underpay and mistreat people, and feed you with mantras of loyalty and labour of love. He also is in the unique position where he was able to waive the NDA away, which pretty much no junior-to-mid level industry people are able to do or they simply won't get hired. There's some good reasons for this, but NDAs also serve to gag you on talking about lots and lots of stuff, and generally spawn an atmosphere of fear where you are never quite sure to whom, when and what about are you allowed to talk to. Couple this with the fact that juniors are aplenty, get hired as contractors that can be terminated at a moment's notice and you can easily see why most people will never ever discuss their working conditions in the industry except in private with their peers.

Maybe if more MCA's would step forward and openly discuss incredibly prevalent industry issues there'd be less people like me who reached a point where we felt 'time to get the fuck out before all this irreparably alters my brain chemistry'

Bottom line is, I can totally understand why MCA's doing what he's doing and reading through his posts I can see a slight grudge, yes, but given the context, which is being screwed out of money you deserve, is easily understood, and most people would start shitting at others way more in such a scenario. What's not as easy to understand is why are you so much into shitting at Avellone.
 
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throwaway

Cipher
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Dec 17, 2013
Messages
492
Ok so I've just finished the 92page doc

Some questions remaining

Is Sawyer in MCA's shitbook? - Getting the feeling that he respect Josh's competence in getting some good work done, but wouldn't send him a birthday card as Josh is in cahoots w/ Urquhart. Throw the PoE privileged royalties thing in and he may actually have more affection for the Darren guy.

More broadly I'm still unsure about the agreed status/ability of the various (formerly?) big names and the degree to which we should care*.
It's been 8 years since Obsidian's last truly great title.
The Troika trio hasn't made anything relevant to the RPG crowd in close to 15 years. We were duped about Cain and PoE and everything in these threads points to the odds of Indiana turning out a classic being slim.
Ziets may be a bro (but heck Fergie seemed all chummy on first look) and I'm willing to believe he would possibly work better as PoE's main story guy but it didn't end up that way. MotB was 11 years ago while Torment tanked badly (not on him obviously, just the rep of everyone in that "dream-team" got damaged). Now he heads W3 but any excitement about InExile games has been entirely depleted.
Fenstermaker sounds talented by all accounts, but hard to work with and again it has been 8 years since FNV.

All I'm left to care about is MCA guy whose style I am certain to enjoy but had the last concentrated drop of it gutted to high hell and who henceforth is going to be a journeyman. (Don't mind though, our entertainment is secondary to his well being).

*Sure the drama is interesting but as 99.99% of the people reading these have no practical experience of game development this serves as an expose of Obs shit functioning than anything else. Did DU's inquiry about how the everloving fuck they actually got any games made get answered?

As a side note, we need a database so that all you fools can type queries to see if MCA has answered them (ie for the Chris have you played x).

Edit:
Also, there was a bit about Chris talking about PS:T sequel ideas with Beamdog, what gives?
 
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Darth Roxor

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Having spent three years in the hugely exploitative games industry I can say that the only reason I have never spawned a thread like this is because of the NDAs, and once those were void (although the way the contract was phrased I'm not sure if they ever went void) it was far beyond the time to stir shit up in any constructive way.

What MCA is doing is really an intake of fresh air into an industry that's operating on quite a mafia like basis. Studios regularly underpay and mistreat people, and feed you with mantras of loyalty and labour of love. He also is in the unique position where he was able to waive the NDA away, which pretty much no junior-to-mid level industry people are unable to do or they simply won't get hired.

Maybe if more MCA's would step forward and openly discuss incredibly prevalent industry issues there'd be less people like me who reached a point where we felt 'time to get the fuck out before all this irreparably alters my brain chemistry'

Bottom line is, I can totally understand why MCA's doing what he's doing and reading through his posts I can see a slight grudge, yes, but given the context, which is being screwed out of money you deserve, is easily understood, and most people would start shitting at others way more in such a scenario. What's not as easy to understand is why are you so into shitting at Avellone.

you know you cant just leave it like that without spilling more beans now, dont you
 

Monocause

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Messages
3,656
I never worked on an RPG, and most of my personal experiences are exacerbated by how QA works in the industry (hint: lots of work, pretty steep demands once you stop being junior, wages significantly, significantly smaller than you can get working for an average software house doing way way less demanding things). Re the Dev experience, while I did witness stuff firsthand most of what I know was from lots and lots of stories from Devs I had the chance to chat to or work with over those three years.

That was a while ago and at this point I don't even know of the people concerned still work at the same companies or who do they work for now. Given that I'm out of touch i dont feel entitled to criticise anymore as things might have changed a lot and with the investigative skills of some of the Dexers it would be quite easy to tie my stories to studios and maybe even particular people. But nepotism and the theme of "good business Vs no ethics" is recurring, especially in larger houses.

Close to home: since I never worked there I feel comfortable talking about and it's no secret (read Glassdoor reciews for instance, the negative ones can be overboard but they broadly tie in with what I heard from insiders); cdprojekt folks are paid like crap, nepotism is v. Strong and "national pride" and tribe mentality serve as substitutes for a proper pay package or feedback process. Find a guy working there or who had worked there willing to spill his beans - shouldn't be too hard.

Edit: corrected the 5x wages comparison as that was an exaggeration.
 
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2house2fly

Magister
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,877
throws shit at everybody that he ever worked with.
That's a hyperbole and you know it. Pages ago he talked about how he likes the developers at Obsidian and went on to dicuss positive experiences with more than a few folks. Avellone's beef is the upper management, he's not a mastermind planning to liquidate the company and drive every staff member into depth.
Can Fergus even be called a professional with all this? Now, I'm willing to hear out all sides of the story. Avellone himself said you shouldn't fanatically take him as gospel and dismiss everyone else. But dismissing people and victims as begging for attention like that is why many issues in the industry didn't become a discussion for a while. Going on an extreme is bad, but you're suggesting an extreme of the other direction.

Or maybe I'm a shill, or something.
The industry the industry. Hes shitting at Obsidian thats all. And only at people that where over him in the hierarchy at the time. Thats laughable. I didn't liked a few of my bosses either but I didn't painted it on the street or fucked it in the throats of my following cult.
You should have.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

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Chris Avellone actually, this has always interested me, not sure this was ever asked, did you have much interaction with Henkel on PST and how was the relationship, what was your impression of him?

It's a long story, but Guido got fired b/c the VP (Trish), Feargus, and Parker all got sick of him (I'll be blunt - I was sick of him 4 days after he started because of how he treated people, but then he pissed off people with a lot more authority than me, which is the death knell). I almost quit because of Guido's management during Torment and went to Westwood, longer story. I'm glad I hung in there, though.

To save face (which arguably, should be a nice thing to do), Feargus allowed Guido to act as if it was "resignation." (When Feargus doesn't like someone, he encourages them... actively... to quit.)

Even though I got the real story later on, I will say his resignation definitely wasn't by choice to everyone hearing it when it happened (he had to tell the whole team in the conference room and very suddenly) - Feargus was sitting by him the whole time while he was making the announcement, being the crushing, you better-behave-and-stick-to-script invisible hand on his resignation shoulder as Guido, pouting and upset, told the room he was resigning. Guido didn't look happy or content at his own news, for sure, which is when I got suspicious.

Usually, people resigning are like, "I wish you all the best," and "fuck yes," and "happy to keep working in 2 weeks, then I'm out of this dump, AMF" (although Black Isle wasn't doing as badly as the rest of Interplay), but Guido's expression wasn't that of someone who was a-joy with his own news, and it wasn't something that a very cold-looking Feargus needed to be there for. It was pretty creepy.

Based on that and asking later for confirmation, I was told by Feargus it wasn't Guido's choice at all - he really had only one choice. But in truth, I didn't need that - because Chris Parker had told me almost a month before (thank god for beer), "Avellone, I don't think you'll have to worry about Guido for much longer." I just had to make sure that Parker hadn't been drinking too much for confirmation, which Feargus provided. Admittedly, he could have been lying.

But to be clear, Guido's firing wasn't because of me - I genuinely believe Guido just pissed off people at a higher grade than me, and they hit back - hard. I can't say I wasn't glad to see him go, since he had checked out of Torment long before (our leads used to catch him working on his DVD review website at work, and had lectured him about it). Also, while I doubt this was the reason, Feargus also kept getting upset b/c Guido kept saying the paycheck he (Guido) agreed to was too small.

There's other stories about his, but I'm just answering the Grauken question - I didn't have much interaction with him, I didn't think he was a good PD, and he seemed more focused on fighting with his former partners on Realms of Arkania vs. the project he was on. Overall, when Ken Lee took over as lead producer (and then was also mistreated by Feargus, which I thought was unfair), I was incredibly relieved.

Guido had less impact on PST on anyone he mentioned vs. his face on the cover of the game (which he orchestrated without telling anyone), and it's something that can be checked with metrics. I would have gladly replaced Guido with a clone of any of the three people he disparaged (even me, and I'd have killed the clone quickly to prevent it from taking over my life), and the game would have been far better for it. I thought his comments on the Deadfire name for Pillars 2 was hilarious, and a perfect example for how he acted at Interplay.

You're saying Guido didn't have much of an impact, and yet that the product would have been better without his involvement. Which is it?
 

l3loodAngel

Proud INTJ
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I think Chris has married into money.

The answer's the same as in the doc. Took time, I work a lot of hours, but was worth it in the end.

It also helps when your living expenses amount to a few hundred bucks each week, you don't need to drive, and your hobby is your job.

I'm not flush, but I never spend more than I earn - I keep a budget, and I never go into debt (the debts I had at the end of Obsidian I took on were not my own).

I will say when you have debts like that, it made it all the more frustrating when expenses weren't paid back, especially for questionable reasons (true story - we had at least one instance where expenses to employees weren't paid back - not employee paychecks like I brought up before, but employee expenses - all because Feargus admitted in an email he wanted the company financials to look as good as possible for his own house refinance).
Well I always knew he was the coon (southpark reference) and a sack of shit who was to blame for pillars of streamlining. I am however interested in what happened with TC. Did he lost his talent or he just lost it?
 
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1,301
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Meh, the recent conversations about the state of the industry are still worthwhile. Unlike the film industry, which itself has its problems, there is no union. Expecting a non-shitty environment isn't entitlment, it's a reasonable thought. Big names talking about this, like Josh himself and burnt out veterans, is what's gonna make this pick up. The average worker doesn't speak about shitty conditions because they get laughed at. It's better to slowly acknowledge the problem than just roll over and die, this isn't magic but an effort is there.
If by some miracle Bernie Sanders voters like Sawyer managed to convince the government to interfer in game design with demands, publishers would simply move to another country where these regulations are not enforced. This would also lead inevitably to a complete erosion of work ethics. Imagine all those self-entitled snowflakes fresh out of University of Commiefornia threatening to sue you if you fix their work again. But hey, as long as you think inside an utopia you can fantasize all you want, because your fantasy is always better than the reality. I'm still laughing at Sanders enforcing wage increase on McDonalds only to see them to replacing their employees by machines. That's great, isn't? You want to come across as the paladin of the opressed and you get them fired. But that's communists for you. They are always fucking the people they are supposed to protect and ruining the economy.
 
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Chippy

Arcane
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6,037
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The industry the industry. Hes shitting at Obsidian thats all. And only at people that where over him in the hierarchy at the time. Thats laughable. I didn't liked a few of my bosses either but I didn't painted it on the street or fucked it in the throats of my following cult.

"The industry (is?) the industry".
It's this type of excuse that enable's employee hell.

"He's shitting at Obsidian, that's all".
No, he's using a tactic that isn't accessible to the developers at Obsidian. They could go down the Union route, but that create's a much more extrinsically motivated power-play between employee and manager (where both sides are constantly balancing the exact job requirement vs the consequences from each other). If the managers's were intrinsically motivated and took responsibility for their employees (to a basic extent) it wouldn't have gotten to this stage in the first place, and would have promoted an environment that benefits from creative employees.

"And only at people that were over him in the hierachy at the time".
He was one of the founder/partner's. Even if they were above him, does that mean an employee is incapable of analysing incompetence in people that outrank them?.

"That's laughable"
No - it's ethical. He's in a unique position to improve developer life at Obsidian, his accusations can be cross-referenced and it's all from his own experience, so he isn't putting anyone currently at Obsidian at risk from being accused of being a whistlblower. If anything the risk is on him.

"I didn't like a few of my bosses either..."
Bet they loved you. Just kidding, unlikeable and competant managers can be worked with if you're professional enough. Unlikeable and incompetant managers just create an environment where everyone is ice skating uphill, and if you don't act, everyone eventually burn's out and it's all south from there. Crap analogy, but you get the idea.

"...or fucked it into the throat's of my following and/or cult".
I'm sure some Codexians have a blow-up doll of MCA hidden away somewhere to recreate this example of your's, but for me I'd say - is it wrong to hold his work up as the standard? A standard that has yet to be equalled. You could make the argument (I don't know the figures, let's assume) POE 1&2 will/has sold more unit's than PS:T, so they're the better games and we're all grognards' holding onto the past - and everyone's gonna boycott Obsidian because management were meanie to the idol of CRPG's.
But it wasn't a cult that Kickstarted POE,W2,TTON. It was fans who knew where the talent was. Now the talent is dispersed again, so everyone will prob just buy titles in a GOG sale. And you can blame crap Obsidian management for that. Or POE2 is the new standard and let the past die, kill it if you have to - because people need jobs or something...well anyone who think's that would probably get along well with a manager who want's an ex-employee to sign a contract preventing them from making a living from their talent.

Also, a cult following, or addicted gamer, is the person who argues to support a gaming company for any reason (like we need to show the industry we want traditional RPG's) when that company has screwed itself out of the talent that inspired it's reputation/following in the first place.

Bet nobody's gonna read this now 'cause it's too long. Edited: spelling
 
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