Why the majority of the codex dont play the true classics?

[Alkarl]

In truth, the Golden Age ('87-94) should be renamed Stone Age to more clearly reflect the technology, technical aptitude

In that case, why isn't the current age considered the Golden Age of rpgs?

and imagination of the coders.

Oh, that's why.

(What coders were achieving at that time in the genre is as nothing when compared to what coders were achieving in other genre, such as flight/space-sims, survival games, FPSes, strategy games, platform games, shoot 'em ups, side-scrolling hack n slashers and vs. Fighters.)

These games had different goals than crpgs. I'm sure it fits your "rennaisance" narrative better if the games that came before a certain period are considered "stone age" or "dark age", but it doesn't line up with reality. In all actuality, the signs of the Decline are all over those mid-late 90's and early 2000's crpgs, but it takes a critical eye to spot them. Not that those games are bad, there are a lot of master pieces in that age too, but the goals and nature of their gameplay were obviously shifting.

 

[Sigourn]

In truth, the Golden Age ('87-94) should be renamed Stone Age to more clearly reflect the technology, technical aptitude

In that case, why isn't the current age considered the Golden Age of rpgs?

Cause RPGs nowadays are shit. Though I do believe Golden Age perfectly applies to that period of RPGs:

By extension "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity.

Aptly describes it. There's no stability or prosperity in an era where devs have to do the virtual equivalent of asking for pennies in order to make RPGs.

 

[Haba]

It is always cute when newfags try to define what Codex is or what Codex isn't.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-many-rpgs-have-you-played.10658/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-many-crpgs-you-have-finished.68557/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-many-crpgs-have-you-played-over-x-years.96161/

 

[Black Angel]

NO NO NO.

I never compared the renaissance (lilura has a obsession with that word) rpgs with the true classics (I have a obsession with that words). I compared the golden era rpgs with the newer, pos-plato, rpgs (PoE, D:OS, AoD, Blackguards...).

My dumbass has been getting the wrong impression from reading this whole thread, then. Pardon me, sir.

If I'm to give my personal opinion on this, I'd say it's because many, if not the majority of, the Codexers who frequented the forum these days are newfags (or just relatively new to the genre, like me). My first cRPG ever (!) was Underrail (!) and I played it mere weeks after release.

So, going back to my first post in this thread (replying to Sigourn's argument about how, with modern games, you just install and play), then relating it to your correction above, I'll still say that you spend most of the time before installing to download all the necessary components (and if you're just a tad bit late, you'll need to download the obligatory day 1 patches). Why do I bring this up? Well, going from the examples mentioned above, most of the new age RPGs are somehow bloated in size (D:OS needs 10 GB, PoE needs 14 GB, Blackguards need 20 GB, Wasteland 2 need 30 GB, etc etc). So if you happen to have mediocre internet connection, you'd probably going to waste hours, if not days, to begin to actually play these games. Comparing it with the experience of trying to play ancient games on modern rigs, there's really not that much difference, yes? Especially since we have JarlFrank in previous posts saying how he'd only need to setup DOSBOX once, and to play more games he'd only need to drag the .exe or something like that. (Oh, and I also have to mention that AoD, and also Underrail, are such a godsend in this age of bloated games because, being indie, those games only need a whopping 2 and 3 GB to download, respectively).

With any modern game, you buy it, wait for it to finish downloading (either downloading everything if you buy digital version or the rest of the components online if you buy physical disk version, and if you're just a tad bit late, wait for it to download day 1 patch(es)), install it, and play.

FTFY.

Only morons buy games they haven't played before.

But.... even if you pirate those games... you still need to wait for all the downloads.... not to mention if you happen to come across some bugs that needed those day 1 patches..... yes, you could argue that you play the game 20 years after it came out to play the Definitive Edition™, but still.... all those time needed to download gigabytes worth of games.... compared to the tiny weeny size of ancient games and probably the exact same amount of time setting up DOSBOX or something similar to actually play it......

 

[Mech]

Cause RPGs nowadays are shit.

Maybe the truth is that all RPGs have always been shit.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

It was fun and then you ragequit like a pussy and went back to Persona 3.

Can you prove I've ever played Persona 3, or is it just mental gymnastics from a butthurt Codexer who desperately tries to justify being the hardcorez as "putting up with shit design decisions"? Then again, your position has been clear from the very beginning: a perfect example of people who think they are actually smart for playing certain videogames.

EDIT: the irony of using the butthurt rating against the person you are discussing with.

While I respect one's opinion on Akalabeth (could be an acquired taste for me, but it's easy to pick up and play every now and then), I also enjoy pissing you off. That's all there is to it, kiddo.

 

[Sigourn]

But.... even if you pirate those games... you still need to wait for all the downloads.... not to mention if you happen to come across some bugs that needed those day 1 patches..... yes, you could argue that you play the game 20 years after it came out to play the Definitive Edition™, but still.... all those time needed to download gigabytes worth of games.... compared to the tiny weeny size of ancient games and probably the exact same amount of time setting up DOSBOX or something similar to actually play it......

Your argument only makes sense if I were to start torrenting a game and literally stare at the download bar like a moron for minutes (or, in my case, hours). When it is more like:

- Press button, game downloads.
- Go on with my life.
- Return.
- Press another button, game installs.
- Go on with my life.
- Return.
- Launch game.

That's not how DOSBOX works, at all. And installing patches and the like is also completely optional, not everyone is as autistic as we are. The most trouble I had with Baldur's Gate was setting it up to run in a window so that the cursor would not leave the window's edges, which admittedly took plenty of work since I'm dealing with an outdated game meant to be played in 1998 and not 2017. Other people simply don't give a shit and play at fullscreen 16:9, but not me.

In the end it wasn't worth it, game was absolute garbage, but it was something I really had wanted to play.

 

[KyivAfter12am]

Funny thing is I can play older games now only if I used to play them before, around the time of their release. I loved the first Civilization, and I can still play it now. Same for HoMM2, Disciples 1, Doom, Thief 1-2 etc. If I try to play any game released before 2005 that I haven't played back then, it's impenetrable to me.

 

[KyivAfter12am]

Funny thing is I can play older games now only if I used to play them before, around the time of their release. I loved the first Civilization, and I can still play it now. Same for HoMM2, Disciples 1, Doom, Thief 1-2 etc. If I try to play any game released before 2005 that I haven't played back then, it's impenetrable to me.

I know, crazy shit. I think the general notion of what a game interface should look and feel like has gradually changed in the 2000s, and I am not able anymore to learn the older interfaces.

 

[Black Angel]

Your argument only makes sense if I were to start torrenting a game and literally stare at the download bar like a moron for minutes (or, in my case, hours). When it is more like:

- Press button, game downloads.
- Go on with my life.
- Return.
- Press another button, game installs.
- Go on with my life.
- Return.
- Launch game.

That's not how DOSBOX works, at all.

Yeah, well...

You are wrong. The problem is DOSBOX is a barrier that begs the question: "why bother going through all the trouble to set up the emulator if I may not even like the games?"

I have a generic dosbox installation on my work laptop, so I can play dosgames during the commute to kill some time.

When I want to try a new DOS game I haven't tried before, I download it from an abandonware site, drag the .exe on my Dosbox-shortcut, and it automatically starts.
The most I ever have to do is run setup.exe to configure sound if it doesn't run right away.

Playing DOS games with Dosbox like that is even less effort than playing most games that run natively on windows. Drag .exe on shortcut, BOOM game starts, 90% of the time it also runs fine from the get go.

wow so much trouble

And no, don't give me that "not everyone is as tech-savvy like you!" or "not everyone have time to waste dealing with this shit!" since you also said this:

And installing patches and the like is also completely optional, not everyone is as autistic as we are.

Implying even you are autistic enough to spend some time trying to make games run optimally on your computer.

The most trouble I had with Baldur's Gate was setting it up to run in a window so that the cursor would not leave the window's edges, which admittedly took plenty of work since I'm dealing with an outdated game meant to be played in 1998 and not 2017. Other people simply don't give a shit and play at fullscreen 16:9, but not me.

In the end it wasn't worth it, game was absolute garbage, but it was something I really had wanted to play.

Isn't GOG a thing? I recall we'll actually have much easier time now because GOG made most ancient games worked almost immediately on modern rig, although you might still need to make few adjustments based on your rig, and even then it wouldn't be as much as actually taking the version of the game that came out to this modern day. Granted, in case of BGs games, it's unfortunate because the original cut was removed and rebundled with the EEs, but there's still the GOG's original cut of BGs game out there in the torrent sites.

Also, what a dumb argument to say something like an outdated game meant to be played in [the year it came out] and not [the current year]. I'm only on the first town past the tutorial are of Baldur's Gate 1 (and haven't touched it again until now because I got distracted by RPGs that's more of my cup of tea), but Fallout 2 came out in the same year and especially Fallout that came a year before, and there's no "meant to be played in specific year" for good games.

Fucking hell, the TC mod for Fallout 2 (Fallout 1.5: Resurrection and Fallout of Nevada) proved that even games with such techs are totally playable in the Current Year™.

 

[Lilura]

In that case, why isn't the current age considered the Golden Age of rpgs?

Because the technology has not advanced from the inception of the API era (meaningfully), and the technical aptitude of game coders has devolved back to Stone Age-level.

Gamers are still afflicted by Renaissance-era (1996-2003) pathing routines and enemy/companion AI.

There has been no advancement in RPGs since Fallout, Deus Ex and Jagged Alliance 2. Sad, but true.

I'm sure it fits your "rennaisance" narrative better if the games that came before a certain period are considered "stone age" or "dark age", but it doesn't line up with reality. In all actuality, the signs of the Decline are all over those mid-late 90's and early 2000's crpgs, but it takes a critical eye to spot them. Not that those games are bad, there are a lot of master pieces in that age too, but the goals and nature of their gameplay were obviously shifting.

Ok, look at this...

• three best pure RPGs (Fallout, Fallout 2 & Arcanum)
• five best party-based RPGs (Baldur's Gate, BG2, Icewind Dale, IWD2, Wizardry 8)
• two best open world RPGs (Daggerfall & Morrowind)
• best toolset (Neverwinter Nights: Aurora)
• three best tactical turn-based games (Jagged Alliance 2, ToEE, Silent Storm)
• best story-based RPG (Planescape: Torment)
• five best action RPGs (Gothic, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Vampire Bloodlines, Severance)
• the greatest PC games of all-time (Deus Ex, Jagged Alliance 2)

... and point out the poison.

RTwP was already in Darklands.
Popamole was already in blobbers that include the seminal Dungeon Master.
Too much text in PS:T? BaK's pretty bad, too.

Diablo hasn't even been pernicious (without Diablo, graphics/UI/anim/pathing systems would still be in Stone Age. It's itemization is also a masterpiece).

What's left? BG2 relationship/romance sim. Definite poison.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Lilura

Gothic and not Gothic 2? Madness. Daggerfall and Morrowind above Gothic 2 in open world? Questionable.

Diablo’s itemization is far from a masterpiece. Sure, the genuinely unique items were awesome, but they were buried in a flood of randomized, generic magical loot. What’s so great about picking up your hundredth [prefix] sword of [suffix]? How is that not the very blueprint for shit itemization? When we see the this garbage in D:OS or D:OS2, we rightly call it decline incarnate.

 

[almondblight]

Maybe the truth is that all RPGs have always been shit.

This is the correct answer. Also, most Codexers seem to be obsessed with mainstream games and generally ignore indie games - and just because the mainstream games your obsessed with are old mainstream games doesn't change this. KotC combat mops the floor with PoR combat; Geneforge probably has some of the best faction and C&C around. But if it wasn't on some idiot game journalist's best of list (whether in the 80's, 90's, or now), a lot of people don't care.

 

[Lilura]

Codexers seem to be obsessed with mainstream games and generally ignore indie games

There is a reason people with good taste ignore indie games as a rule of thumb: it's because they're shit.

KotC combat mops the floor with PoR combat

And is poo compared to Jagged Alliance 2 and Silent Storm.

Geneforge probably has some of the best faction and C&C around.

Pity the rest of the game might as well have been made in 1987.

 

[Alkarl]

In that case, why isn't the current age considered the Golden Age of rpgs?

Because the technology has not advanced from the inception of the API era (meaningfully), and the technical aptitude of game coders has devolved back to Stone Age-level.

Gamers are still afflicted by Renaissance-era (1996-2003) pathing routines and enemy/companion AI.

There has been no advancement in RPGs since Fallout, Deus Ex and Jagged Alliance 2. Sad, but true.

I'm sure it fits your "rennaisance" narrative better if the games that came before a certain period are considered "stone age" or "dark age", but it doesn't line up with reality. In all actuality, the signs of the Decline are all over those mid-late 90's and early 2000's crpgs, but it takes a critical eye to spot them. Not that those games are bad, there are a lot of master pieces in that age too, but the goals and nature of their gameplay were obviously shifting.

Ok, look at this...

• three best pure RPGs (Fallout, Fallout 2 & Arcanum)
• five best party-based RPGs (Baldur's Gate, BG2, Icewind Dale, IWD2, Wizardry 8)
• two best open world RPGs (Daggerfall & Morrowind)
• best toolset (Neverwinter Nights: Aurora)
• three best tactical turn-based games (Jagged Alliance 2, ToEE, Silent Storm)
• best story-based RPG (Planescape: Torment)
• five best action RPGs (Gothic, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Vampire Bloodlines, Severance)
• the greatest PC games of all-time (Deus Ex, Jagged Alliance 2)

... and point out the poison.

RTwP was already in Darklands.
Popamole was already in blobbers that include the seminal Dungeon Master.
Too much text in PS:T? BaK's pretty bad, too.

Diablo hasn't even been pernicious (without Diablo, graphics/UI/anim/pathing systems would still be in Stone Age. It's itemization is also a masterpiece).

What's left? BG2 relationship/romance sim. Definite poison.

I generally agree with you Lilura. Those are some fantastic points/games. However, when compared to the things that came before them and those which came after, they have far more in common with the latter.

I'm talking tutorialization, forced narratives, check list style quest tracking, inane cutscenes, yes the BG2/Bioware style romances (not nearly as common), talking heads, etc.

I do feel like the generation we're discussing struck a good balance with all of these things and that alot of this is subjective, not everyone is going to see it my way, but I think, ultimately, a lot of these improvements led to lazier and lazier design choices. Writers started being incentivized to remove the player from the game, ruining agency and involvement, while telling ever increasingly cinematized stories. It may not be what we wanted, sure, but I can see how they (developers/designers) thought we did.

 

[Sigourn]

Also, what a dumb argument to say something like an outdated game meant to be played in [the year it came out] and not [the current year]. I'm only on the first town past the tutorial are of Baldur's Gate 1 (and haven't touched it again until now because I got distracted by RPGs that's more of my cup of tea), but Fallout 2 came out in the same year and especially Fallout that came a year before, and there's no "meant to be played in specific year" for good games.

You completely missed what I was saying. Baldur's Gate wasn't designed with 16:9 monitors in mind. That's why, if you want to play the game windowed (like any reasonable person would), the cursor flies past the window's edges and scrolling means you have to bring the cursor all the way to the edge of your monitor. Go ahead and prove me wrong: install vanilla Baldur's Gate, choose fullscreen, and tell me BioWare expected everyone to play the game stretched as fuck.

"Mods fix it!" isn't an excuse, especially because I don't like using high resolution mods for games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout.

EDIT: GOG doesn't fix the issues I have with Baldur's Gate either, it's completely on me to fix them.

 

[Cael]

Lilura, you dont like any, any at all, rpgs made before 1995?

You can be out of character now.

Wouldn't that require that she stop her continual bleeding first?

 

[Alkarl]

EDIT: GOG doesn't fix the issues I have with Baldur's Gate either, it's completely on me to fix them.

You poor thing.

 

[Sigourn]

EDIT: GOG doesn't fix the issues I have with Baldur's Gate either, it's completely on me to fix them.

You poor thing.

"there's no such problem with GOG!"

"w-well it's not that big of a problem!"

It's funny when people keep moving the goalposts.

 

[Parabalus]

Funny thing is I can play older games now only if I used to play them before, around the time of their release. I loved the first Civilization, and I can still play it now. Same for HoMM2, Disciples 1, Doom, Thief 1-2 etc. If I try to play any game released before 2005 that I haven't played back then, it's impenetrable to me.

I know, crazy shit. I think the general notion of what a game interface should look and feel like has gradually changed in the 2000s, and I am not able anymore to learn the older interfaces.

The improvements were done even before, just compare Arcanum/IE's UI to the Fallouts, the latter is clunky garbage in comparison.

 

[Alkarl]

EDIT: GOG doesn't fix the issues I have with Baldur's Gate either, it's completely on me to fix them.

You poor thing.

"there's no such problem with GOG!"

"w-well it's not that big of a problem!"

It's funny when people keep moving the goalposts.

God forbid they didn't remit a custom version for your specific set-up with all the money you must have paid.

That's part of being a computer gamer, you can go back to your console anytime, popamole.

 

[KyivAfter12am]

Funny thing is I can play older games now only if I used to play them before, around the time of their release. I loved the first Civilization, and I can still play it now. Same for HoMM2, Disciples 1, Doom, Thief 1-2 etc. If I try to play any game released before 2005 that I haven't played back then, it's impenetrable to me.

I know, crazy shit. I think the general notion of what a game interface should look and feel like has gradually changed in the 2000s, and I am not able anymore to learn the older interfaces.

The improvements were done even before, just compare Arcanum/IE's UI to the Fallouts, the latter is clunky garbage in comparison.

True, Fallout is far from the worst offender, but every time I install it now I have to learn how to use the right button context menu in the inventory again. IE games are not the best, though. Sometimes it's impossible to tell what is happening during a battle, if there are a lot of spell effects involved. To be fair, PoE suffers from the same problem.

 

[Sigourn]

God forbid they didn't remit a custom version for your specific set-up with all the money you must have paid.

Calling out another user's lies suddenly makes me popamole consoletard, what the fuck?

 

[Parabalus]

Funny thing is I can play older games now only if I used to play them before, around the time of their release. I loved the first Civilization, and I can still play it now. Same for HoMM2, Disciples 1, Doom, Thief 1-2 etc. If I try to play any game released before 2005 that I haven't played back then, it's impenetrable to me.

I know, crazy shit. I think the general notion of what a game interface should look and feel like has gradually changed in the 2000s, and I am not able anymore to learn the older interfaces.

The improvements were done even before, just compare Arcanum/IE's UI to the Fallouts, the latter is clunky garbage in comparison.

True, Fallout is far from the worst offender, but every time I install it now I have to learn how to use the right button context menu in the inventory again. IE games are not the best, though. Sometimes it's impossible to tell what is happening during a battle, if there are a lot of spell effects involved. To be fair, PoE suffers from the same problem.

I wouldn't call that an UI issue though, the IE combat log is pretty good. Dumpsterfire's UI is great but it can still be a clusterfuck on the main screen.

 

[octavius]

And what are the best golden era games to you (that is both challengeable/hard and have great tactical battles)?

I guess I will play Disciples od Steel next.

In addition to DoS:
Nahlakh and Natuk.
Pools of Darkness and Dark Queen of Krynn.