“This game was ahead of it’s time” Too bad the Future never came to pass

[Invictus]

While watching a new video on YouTube from the noclip channel on the History of Bethesda Todd Howard and the other members of the Studio speak openly on how Morrowind sold better on the original Xbox than it did on PC and how this waw one of their deciding factors for going for more “console friendly features” which included full speech, and how the space limitations forced them to drop a big chunk of the speech from Oblivion where a lot of good ideas where never even scripted because of the lack of space for the voicefiles they would use.
Now the connection between dumbed down dialogues because of actual speech (and its on disc based limitations) is never mentioned as an excuse but it did remind me of a favorite quote I have heard of games such as Planescape Torment, Bloodlines, System Shock 2 and New Vegas as games that were “ahead of its time” in both their narratives complexities and intricate storylines somehow beign restricted by the technological restrictions of their time...

That is all fine and dandy but the thing is that the wonderful future these games represented just never came to pass

Few can question that Planescape Torment is not only the best writen RPG of all time but it’s dialogues are the best too or that Bloodines has the best spoken dialogues ever, or that New Vegas has the most C&C in any game

But given that the youngest of those games is more than 8 years old...where are those kinds of games now that the supposed future they represented is here?
To be honest other than games like Age of Decadence or AAA stuff like Witcher 3 I cannot remember more modern games even attempting to go that route.

Even games like Wasteland 2 which has good C&C (albeit with binary gamey choices) so so dialogues, are decidedly old school in their approach
With all these accesible tools for making new games like Unreal, Unity and even Crytech the technological side of the games should be covered so where are the deep storylines, memorable NPCs, imaginative settings and systems?

Now that technology seems to have reached the point where we no longer have to have fantastic descriptions but actually show it why has narration taken such a backseat?

Is making a beautiful looking game more of a priority than a good story?

Memorable well writen characters like Jack from Bloodines, Fall from Grace from Planescape Torment, Shodan from System Shock 2 or Cesar from New Vegas were not memorable because of the size of their tits, or their visual appearance but rather by the way they were written and voice acted
Characters like the Bloody Baron from Witcher 3; which are deep, interesting and memorable with a distinct personality and that actually stayed with me long after the PC was turned off and I was at working thinking on them are so rare I would say they are almost extinct

I enjoy a mindless game of Battlefield as much as anybody else or the almost soothingly simple way Skyrim has for questing, hiking around or collecting things for crafting...but in a way after I play a game like New Vegas or start a replay of Planescape Torment I kind of feel cheated that the medium seems to have taken such a nosedive in the quality of their writing
I don’t expect every game to be a Torment but having more than 2 3 deep well writen game a decade would be more than welcome

 

[Lurker47]

*its

 

[Bladeract]

While watching a new video on YouTube from the noclip channel on the History of Bethesda Todd Howard and the other members of the Studio speak openly on how Morrowind sold better on the original Xbox than it did on PC and how this waw one of their deciding factors for going for more “console friendly features” which included full speech, and how the space limitations forced them to drop a big chunk of the speech from Oblivion where a lot of good ideas where never even scripted because of the lack of space for the voicefiles they would use.
Now the connection between dumbed down dialogues because of actual speech (and its on disc based limitations) is never mentioned as an excuse but it did remind me of a favorite quote I have heard of games such as Planescape Torment, Bloodlines, System Shock 2 and New Vegas as games that were “ahead of its time” in both their narratives complexities and intricate storylines somehow beign restricted by the technological restrictions of their time...

That is all fine and dandy but the thing is that the wonderful future these games represented just never came to pass

Few can question that Planescape Torment is not only the best writen RPG of all time but it’s dialogues are the best too or that Bloodines has the best spoken dialogues ever, or that New Vegas has the most C&C in any game

But given that the youngest of those games is more than 8 years old...where are those kinds of games now that the supposed future they represented is here?
To be honest other than games like Age of Decadence or AAA stuff like Witcher 3 I cannot remember more modern games even attempting to go that route.

Even games like Wasteland 2 which has good C&C (albeit with binary gamey choices) so so dialogues, are decidedly old school in their approach
With all these accesible tools for making new games like Unreal, Unity and even Crytech the technological side of the games should be covered so where are the deep storylines, memorable NPCs, imaginative settings and systems?

Now that technology seems to have reached the point where we no longer have to have fantastic descriptions but actually show it why has narration taken such a backseat?

Is making a beautiful looking game more of a priority than a good story?

Memorable well writen characters like Jack from Bloodines, Fall from Grace from Planescape Torment, Shodan from System Shock 2 or Cesar from New Vegas were not memorable because of the size of their tits, or their visual appearance but rather by the way they were written and voice acted
Characters like the Bloody Baron from Witcher 3; which are deep, interesting and memorable with a distinct personality and that actually stayed with me long after the PC was turned off and I was at working thinking on them are so rare I would say they are almost extinct

I enjoy a mindless game of Battlefield as much as anybody else or the almost soothingly simple way Skyrim has for questing, hiking around or collecting things for crafting...but in a way after I play a game like New Vegas or start a replay of Planescape Torment I kind of feel cheated that the medium seems to have taken such a nosedive in the quality of their writing
I don’t expect every game to be a Torment but having more than 2 3 deep well writen game a decade would be more than welcome

Because the average human is a retard and the average game dev not much above that level. Once all PC games became console games that was virtually the end of any quality games. And morrowind was already dumbed down af so you can't really blame the tech there, it was because they were gearing it more for idiotic people.

I think smart makers of entertainment can make things that appeal to both retards and smart people but that is more difficult and probably beyond guys like bethesda even if they wanted to.

 

[DalekFlay]

Because the average human is a retard and the average game dev not much above that level. Once all PC games became console games that was virtually the end of any quality games. And morrowind was already dumbed down af so you can't really blame the tech there, it was because they were gearing it more for idiotic people.

Yeah, it makes us sound like elitist shits but honestly just go look at average IQ numbers. The world is filled with idiots, thus the better you want your mainstream thing to sell the more idiot friendly you make it. Also even the people who veer toward the smarter end might only give passive investment into games, thus limiting how much they want to bother thinking about them. For example my movie tastes tend to veer toward blockbusters, because it's just not a medium I enjoy enough to dive into as a "cinema enthusiast" or whatever.

Anyway, specific to the topic, this impairs growth and advancement in many areas of games because the market doesn't actually want it. The market on average wants loot and "fun," not better writing and C&C.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

There is definitely a case to be made that console-orientation has dumbed down cross-platform games considerably. However, Bethesda and Two-Tawdd Howard don't get to make that case, because their games were already dumb to begin with.

Think about what he is saying, and none of it makes sense. Voice-overs were a PC thing before cross-platform, Gothic 1 had them in 2001. But let's say consoles make it a required thing due to sitting further away from the TV screen. How does that excuse the shitty Bethesda dialogue? All Piranha Bytes games have full voice overs and pretty decent dialogue, as did New Vegas, and obviously the Witcher games. All of these come from studios who have a tiny portion of Bethesda's budget. So Todd wants us to believe THAT's the reason for their crap?

Need I even mention that Morrowind's non-voiced dialogue was shit too, although in a different way?

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

You responders make it seem like there aren't indie developers that make games that cater to the monocled amongst you. There are plenty of good/great indie rogue-likes that will challenge and even stifle you in terms of combat and build choice.

AoD seems to be the rare game that not only challenges one to find the right path, but only has one correct path per build. (I'm currently hating that game, but still currently trying to crack it).

A good narrative game with all sorts of C&C and world-reactivity I think needs to be built ground-up with those things in mind before anything else. Because most retarded gamers don't get those things and are put off by them, then it is up to indie devs to make such games.

Maybe...just maybe....some of those indie devs are coming down the pike with such games (Disco Elysium).

 

[DalekFlay]

There is definitely a case to be made that console-orientation has dumbed down cross-platform games considerably. However, Bethesda and Two-Tawdd Howard don't get to make that case, because their games were already dumb to begin with.

Think about what he is saying, and none of it makes sense. Voice-overs were a PC thing before cross-platform, Gothic 1 had them in 2001. But let's say consoles make it a required thing due to sitting further away from the TV screen. How does that excuse the shitty Bethesda dialogue? All Piranha Bytes games have full voice overs and pretty decent dialogue, as did New Vegas, and obviously the Witcher games. All of these come from studios who have a tiny portion of Bethesda's budget. So Todd wants us to believe THAT's the reason for their crap?

Yeah man, I totally agree with what you're sayi...

Need I even mention that Morrowind's non-voiced dialogue was shit too, although in a different way?

Oh wait, fuck you asshole!

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

Morrowind, as good as it was in many ways, could be pretty cringey in others. I can't think of any straight fantasy game that isn't though.

 

[Allyriadil]

Because the average human is a retard and the average game dev not much above that level. Once all PC games became console games that was virtually the end of any quality games. And morrowind was already dumbed down af so you can't really blame the tech there, it was because they were gearing it more for idiotic people.

I think smart makers of entertainment can make things that appeal to both retards and smart people but that is more difficult and probably beyond guys like bethesda even if they wanted to.

And dont forget that console controls are very limited, a game like Arma and Squad would never been able to run on them because the complexity of the controls.
I think voiced dialogue is overrated anyway, I read faster than the spoken dialogue so I often end up skipping. Instead of wasting memory on that they could have used it to create better gameplay.

RPG's though have always been a niche genre, developers nowadays want to reach the masses and hence another reason for simplification.
A RPG though, will never be able to compete in terms of sales with Battle Royale crap or whatever is flavour of the month the brainlets desire.
They require thinking and investment, something the average gamer doesn't want to do sadly.

 

[Neanderthal]

I think the problem goes a lot deeper than a gripping narrative. I played games a quarter of a century or more ago that were more feature heavy and daring than any modern crpg, and yet they were not built upon, they were not bettered and in some ways they still haven't been surpassed, but people who've never played them will automatically dismiss them as backwards, limited and simplistic just because of their age.
Betrayal at Krondor had a fantastic plot and worldbuilding, and writing second to none thanks to Neal Hallford, but is not played or learned from because its old and quaint supposedly. The Ultimas actually built vast worlds that lived seperate from the main character, and yet all the features they pioneered and introduced are cast away now and derided by players and devs who want their crpgs to be just combat, conversation and crap collecting in fucking straight corridors. Well guess what? Focusing on these supposed core themes of crpgs hasn't made them any better, combat is shit, conversation is fruitless, and loot is just a collection of indistinct crap. All they've done with their endless calls to dumb down and limit games is to decline the genre, make the devs job easier, lower expectations and fucking ruin my enjoyment.
Shall we improve a system that is flawed? Nah just remove it.
Shall we iterate on our previous ideas? Nah streamline em.
Will the players mind? Nah they'll fucking cheer at us removing the "busywork" so they can go back to grinding xp and loo for hours on fucking end in new game +++++++ modet.
What if they do mind? Give their character a free hat, the stupid cunts'll be over moon.



You should have fucking chosen Eric!

 

[Bladeract]

Because the average human is a retard and the average game dev not much above that level. Once all PC games became console games that was virtually the end of any quality games. And morrowind was already dumbed down af so you can't really blame the tech there, it was because they were gearing it more for idiotic people.

I think smart makers of entertainment can make things that appeal to both retards and smart people but that is more difficult and probably beyond guys like bethesda even if they wanted to.

And dont forget that console controls are very limited, a game like Arma and Squad would never been able to run on them because the complexity of the controls.
I think voiced dialogue is overrated anyway, I read faster than the spoken dialogue so I often end up skipping. Instead of wasting memory on that they could have used it to create better gameplay.

RPG's though have always been a niche genre, developers nowadays want to reach the masses and hence another reason for simplification.
A RPG though, will never be able to compete in terms of sales with Battle Royale crap or whatever is flavour of the month the brainlets desire.
They require thinking and investment, something the average gamer doesn't want to do sadly.

I think the rpg niche is easy to fill though. It doesn't really require a lot of art assets and VO. Just some decent art and some tactical turnbase gameplay and some sort of story and they will get millions in sales which should be enough money to develop such games. I mean if strategy games exist then so should RPGs be able to exist in the semi mainstream, but there doesn't seem to be anyone interested and capable of making such games.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

Betrayal at Krondor - 1993

You got to give a motherfucker at least a little bit of eye-candy or what's even the point of playing a video game. I might as well play pnp and use my mind's eye.

Ok, fine. It looked good to you 25 fucking years ago and apparently still looks good enough to you now. Games from approximately 20 years ago look good enough to me now.

I'm not willing to go back farther than that because that shit looks ugly to me.

If graphics don't matter at all to you then I hear Dwarf Fortress is really deep. Go play that.

Or just find some peeps online and go to Roll20. I'm there every Sunday.

Tales of Maj'Eyal has got a pretty deep system and old-school graphics (I even fucking like them).

there doesn't seem to be anyone interested and capable of making such games.

There are all kinds of indie-devs making RPGs all the time. What are you people on about?

This is the greatest time ever to be a fan of RPGs. If the prettier shit isn't substantive enough for you, then there are more options than ever to go hardcore.

 

[octavius]

I think voiced dialogue is overrated anyway, I read faster than the spoken dialogue so I often end up skipping.

I wonder if the "I play video games for the story" crowd are the same people who refuse to play games where not every line is voiced?

 

[Jokzore]

Is making a beautiful looking game more of a priority than a good story?

Yes. All of the games you've listed were considered AAA at the time of their release, they were made by industry leaders and they were given the attention a Battlefield or a Skyrim would get today. However aside from Witcher 3, are there any other AAA RPGs of today? None of those games have been made recently, I doubt they CAN be made, instead System Shock turned into Bioshock(FPS), Torment turned into NumaNuma(interactive novel), Fallout New Vegas turned into 76(god know what that is, but it ain't an RPG) and Bloodlines is numerous failed projects, none of which an RPG.

If a big dick publisher actually had the balls to put their weight behind an RPG they way they used to, I'm sure we'd get the future we were promised. Dark Souls and Witcher 3 are proof of that. Even Vampyr to some extend. As many problems as I have with the game, from unintentionally hilarious dialogue, dead-end plotlines to nightmareish level design, I still very much enjoyed it and it shows that there's potential out there.

Sadly if AAA publishers don't overcome their greed and fear of games that don't appeal to the widest possible audience, I'm afraid RPGs are doomed to forever be confined in the realm indies and crowdfunding.

 

[Jokzore]

I think voiced dialogue is overrated anyway, I read faster than the spoken dialogue so I often end up skipping.

I wonder if the "I play video games for the story" crowd are the same people who refuse to play games where not every line is voiced?

I wouldn't say I completely fit the bill but I've been known to put on my storyfag hat from time to time. I do love my voiced dialogue in video games even though I end up skipping a lot of it thanks to subtitles. The main reason I like voice acting is because I feel like it breathes some life into the world and characters. Even the constantly repeating alien gibberish of KOTOR is better than a world where everyone is a mute.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

I'm afraid RPGs are doomed to forever be confined in the realm indies and crowdfunding.

That's exactly where I like them. Fuck the mainstream. Fuck normie, corporate-brainwashed cunts.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

AoD seems to be the rare game that not only challenges one to find the right path, but only has one correct path per build.

Bullshit.

 

[Jokzore]

I'm afraid RPGs are doomed to forever be confined in the realm indies and crowdfunding.

That's exactly where I like them. Fuck the mainstream. Fuck normie, corporate-brainwashed cunts.

I like it better when they have decent marketing, don't have to worry about budgets, don't have to cut out features, don't have to throw hissy fits over voice acting and just overall have the resources and time to push the genre forward. As much as I appreciate the recent attempts at reviving the genre via kickstarter projects, none of them have really moved the genre further (Divinity excluded), they merely replicate what's already been done almost 20 years earlier.

 

[Citizen]

Stories in RPGs

Well, nothing wrong with them, but I want nice gameplay and character progression. Story can add a flavour, but I like RPGs, not CYOA interactive fiction.

I don't know how it happened, but after black isle released their experimental visual novel RPG-lite "Planescape Torment", people went crazy and now think every RPG should be an interactive book with barely any gameplay.

 

[octavius]

I think voiced dialogue is overrated anyway, I read faster than the spoken dialogue so I often end up skipping.

I wonder if the "I play video games for the story" crowd are the same people who refuse to play games where not every line is voiced?

I wouldn't say I completely fit the bill but I've been known to put on my storyfag hat from time to time. I do love my voiced dialogue in video games even though I end up skipping a lot of it thanks to subtitles. The main reason I like voice acting is because I feel like it breathes some life into the world and characters. Even the constantly repeating alien gibberish of KOTOR is better than a world where everyone is a mute.

Personally I prefer how BG2 and Morrowind did it, with VO limited to greetings, combat yells and introductions, instead of long slow speeches where I go "get on with it already!".
It's weird that in this age of instant gratification people have the patience to listen to slow speeches. But maybe redding is teh harder?