Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Rift / Vive / VR General

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
Btw. a lot of hardware manufacturers are also working on high resolution/PPI VR panels, I'm not really sure how it's going to run in conjunction with the hardware required though, as high-end cards are already pushing it on current VR panels: https://www.roadtovr.com/inside-samsung-jdis-high-pixel-density-vr-panels/
Samsung showed off their 2.43-inch, 3,840 × 2,160 resolution (120Hz) panel through the lenses of a VR headset, although it appears from UploadVR‘s video that only static imagery was shown to SID Display Week attendees. The panel on display features 1,200 pixels per inch (PPI), and although not explicitly mentioned, is probably a derivation of their OLED VR panel first shown at Mobile World Congress last year.

Japan Display Inc. (JDI), a display conglomerate created by Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi, debuted their high pixel density display at Display Week, showing off the 3.25-inch, 2,160 × 2,432 resolution TFT-LCD (120Hz). JDI’s panel features 1,001 PPI. As opposed to Samsung’s display, attendees were treated to a moving scene.


https://uploadvr.com/heres-google-lgs-new-1443-ppi-vr-display/
One of the most anticipated features of this week’s Display Week event in LA is a new screen built by Google and LG, designed specifically for VR. At its booth LG is showing off a 4.3-inch OLED panel with a pixel density of 1443 pixels per inch (PPI).

Inside each lens, which is fitted to a wall and not embedded inside a headset, there’s the same image of a map with text both big and small text. The new OLED display has a resolution of 3840 x 4800 and a refresh rate of 120Hz. It’s being shown next to a ‘conventional’ 538 PPI display for comparison’s sake.
Google-Displays-PNG.png

google-lenovo-1443-oled.jpg
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
Yeah Gen2 of VR will be great.

- fovated rendering (to only render in high rest stuff you look on while rest in low res)
- varifocal displays (to handle proper focus instead of infinite focus like now)
- amazing displays 4k per eye

With those 3 it will be leapfrog over what is now available. Fovated rendering will lessen requirements (A LOT), varifocal displays will be able to properly make eyes focus and make most of sickness and eye strain gone, while displays will remove screen door effect and will be able to provide up to 140-150FOV with great PPI.

It will be difference like between nigh and day.

With 3rd gen i hope they will reduce weight and size of those headsets and increase fov further to something like 200.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
- fovated rendering (to only render in high rest stuff you look on while rest in low res)
- varifocal displays (to handle proper focus instead of infinite focus like now)
I'll believe the first one when I see it (it's a lot harder to actually accomplish than some of the optimistic demos make it actually look), they've built something they called "Fixed Foveated Rendering" into Oculus Go to lower hardware requirements already, although that just means that the generally visible area in the middle is full res, while the resolution gets lower the farther to the margins you get:


And even if I do I'm not sure I want Facebook to be able to track my pupils movements and micro-movements for them to optimize content and ad placement and build up their psychological profiles.

The second will be useful, but I'm not sure exactly how useful and how reliable mechanical parts required for constant long-term use might be, they've also kind of cheated showing its effect by adding blur to some of their presentations so far, but objects rendered normally at that distance on today's headsets aren't generally blurred in the way displayed:


increase fov further to something like 200
In the context of VR, these are supposed to be the upper bounds of the human visual system and at that point you're going to get diminishing returns, we ain't lizards or fishes with almost 360° all-around view:
humanfovt3uat.png
 
Last edited:

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
In the context of VR, these are supposed to be the upper bounds of the human visual system and at that point you're going to get diminishing returns, we ain't lizards or fishes with almost 360° all-around view:

210 fov is about what human can see. While everything outside is blurry it still provide you a lot of important information, like space you are in and how fast you are moving. Which is why racing games on monitor feel so slow, because there is nothing from sides taht your eye can keep track and judge how fast you are moving.

Second part is "presence", with wider FOV you stop feeling like you have helmet on. I already notice huge change when i moved from PSVR to VIVE because i got extra 10 in my horizontal view and a lot in vertical view, i can definitely tell that i get more of that sweet "i am there" feeling.

In future with light VR headset and about 210 fov it will be very very hard for brain not to be fooled.
 

Shackleton

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,301
Location
Knackers Yard
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
So I got my Rift.

Holy shit.

It's a gimmick, but fucking hell what a gimmick. Even just the first intro to the touch controllers with the little robot in the trailer was more enjoyable than POE. Wasn't massively blown away by Google Earth VR, but Robo Recall was amazingly fun. I can see how wave shooters will soon get boring, but it's certainly true that you have to experience it to really 'get it'.

Definitely a convert to the VR bandwagon. Also pleased I didn't get any nausea at all in a good couple of hours solid.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
IT depends on games really. Also it is something that your body will adjust after a while IF you will actually get some game that fucks with your head.
When i started i had issues with Resident Evil 7 but when i finished i could play that game with smooth controls without batting an eye.

BTW there is ReVive for oculus so that you can enjoy vive stuff.
 

Puteo

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
171
BTW there is ReVive for oculus so that you can enjoy vive stuff.

What are the top Vive games that aren't on the Oculus store though? The only one I can think of is Pavlov. The Rift has the most market share now so everything decent gets ported to it.

SteamVR is also a pretty poor experience for Oculus users, bad performance and still has tons of glitches years later. I wouldn't be surprised if Valve was intentionally making the Oculus experience on SteamVR shit.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
BTW there is ReVive for oculus so that you can enjoy vive stuff.

What are the top Vive games that aren't on the Oculus store though? The only one I can think of is Pavlov. The Rift has the most market share now so everything decent gets ported to it.
It's actually the other way around to what Perkel stated, Revive is for Vive users to play Oculus "Exclusive" games as I said a few posts ago: https://github.com/LibreVR/Revive
This is a compatibility layer between the Oculus SDK and OpenVR. It allows you to play Oculus-exclusive games on your HTC Vive.

You can find out which those are here e.g. Lone Echo, Edge of Nowhere, Chronos, The Climb, Lucky's Tale, ARKTIKA.1, Robo Recall, From Other Suns, Wilson's Heart, Red Matter, Echo Arena, DiRT Rally, The Unspoken, Brass Tactics, Feral Rites, Defense Grid 2 VR, Dragon Front, Landfall, Dead and Buried, Rock Band VR: https://www.reddit.com//r/oculus/wiki/major_vr_games

As for the other way around, there are various games that you won't find on the Oculus Store, although Valve is committed to make most VR games work with every available HMD via SteamVR, but some games designed mainly with the Vive in mind and not available on the Oculus store would be Skyrim VR, Fallout 4 VR, Doom VFR, all the Serious Sam games, The Solus Project, The Talos Principle, GORN, Hover Junkers, Audioshield, H3VR, Pavlov and various other smaller games that Oculus won't let on their Store for various reasons e.g. obvious examples would be stuff like VR Kanojo or Together VR since they don't want anything "porny" on their Store.

There are also various games that are available on the Oculus Store by now, but were mainly designed with the Vive and Roomscale in mind before the Oculus Touch existed and would generally play better with one e.g. The Lab is Valve's basic Minigame collection, Arizona Sunshine, Space Pirate Trainer, Duck Season, Onward, Batman: Arkham VR, Cloudlands, Job Simulator, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, The Assembly, Star Trek: Bridge Crew, Tethered etc.
Just check Steam for the "Roomscale" as opposed to the "Seated" or "Standing" VR tags, although they're not always properly applied since there are devs that just add all of them for better discoverability: https://store.steampowered.com/search/?vrsupport=303
 
Last edited:

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
Yeah Wilson Hearth looks amazing. Resident Evil 7 was and still is my favorite VR game so WH should tople that no problem, It remind me a lot of old thriller adventure games just in VR.



-------------

Played today Doom VFR.

Mixed feelings. At one hand it is nudoom which i liked but it is completely separate campaign which i don't like.
Secondly while understand slowmo locomotion thing i don't like it. It doesn't fit doom at all.

Fallout 4 VR is surprisingly works great on my rig, because i heard that it worked like shit.
And it also feels awesome that i can finally shoot my favorite gun from Fallout 2 .223 pistol while having it in my VR hands. If only that FNV coversion would be release i would be in heaven. I played FNV before in VR but having gun in hand is different feeling.
 
Last edited:

Shackleton

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,301
Location
Knackers Yard
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Yeah, so turns out I'm certainly not immune to VR nausea. Subnautica made me want to hurl after a very short time, although the fact my controller wouldn't work properly in it may have contributed. Project Cars was excellent and some mild discomfort but nothing major. Overload, which I was really looking forward to in VR, is awesome but quite vomit-inducing. The buttons that rotate the ship 90 degrees in particular send me very peculiar.

The two freebies Oculus give you, Robo Recall and Dead and Buried, were chosen very wisely. No nausea from them at all, as movement is so limited. Entertaining as well, in a filthy casual way.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
Yeah, so turns out I'm certainly not immune to VR nausea. Subnautica made me want to hurl after a very short time,

It takes time to adjust. I also at start had little problems (especially with RE7 smooth camera) but after a while it didn't cause problems.

VR muscle is something you train and you later don't have problems.
 

Shackleton

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,301
Location
Knackers Yard
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Had to refund Overload, VR legs couldn't take it yet and didn't want to risk trying to 'play though' the nausea. Used the cash to buy The Mage's Tale as it's on offer and I had a 25% off voucher from somewhere. Really enjoying it so far and I seem to be able to play with the locomotion in that without feeling queasy.

I'm still at the stage where I'm playing more or less everything with my mouth agape in amazement so not the best critic of the games so far. The Mage's Tale looks like it's going to be simplistic and unchallenging, but the feeling of 'being there' in the dungeon really ups the interest level. Fucking hell, don't let me buy Skyrim VR for heaven's sake!
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
You are in honeymoon period and it will pass. As someone who is about a year with VR i still love it but i can easily see that with slightly different taste of games i would probably have hard to justify VR headset with my wallet as choice of games is pretty limited.

Some recomendations:

First off get:
REC
VRChat
The Lab
Accounting

Because they are completely free and ton of fun. Accounting is hilarious.

Paid games:
SuperHot. This is VIVE at its best with controlers room scale and everything. Get it because it is worth it.
Thumper. Amazing music rythm game with amazing atmosphere:


some Thumper gameplay:

 
Last edited:

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
I think second gen VR headsets will completely fix VR issues.
I just saw YT video of Pimax8K VR headset through the lenses.

Absolutely no screen door effect, 200 field of view (humans can see about 220) which means basically covering everything you normally would see. IT is LIGHER than Vive a bit.

Only - right now it is that this is 60hz not 90hz but imo since i played a lot in 60hz vr via PSVR on pc it is not huge issue but imho it will upgraded when new connectors will be released (hdmi 2.1) because all of current ones can't do better than 4k @ 60hz on one cable.

Just look at lenses (that is camera looking at sense showing no screen door effect and it can't cover 200 field of view at that):

 

Shackleton

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,301
Location
Knackers Yard
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Yeah the Pimax is really making a massive point about the higher resolution of it's screens, which is not a surprise as all the early reports are it has really bad latency and lens distortion.

If they can get it as smooth as the current gen headsets I'm sure it'll sell bucketloads, (well in VR terms anyway), but if they can't there's going to be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,764
Yeah the Pimax is really making a massive point about the higher resolution of it's screens, which is not a surprise as all the early reports are it has really bad latency and lens distortion.

If they can get it as smooth as the current gen headsets I'm sure it'll sell bucketloads, (well in VR terms anyway), but if they can't there's going to be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

8k is still not released. Linus tested v2 version and people who tested v5 version which was sent to some youtubers claim problem is mostly fixed. v5 also isn't the end.

Resolution is one thing. FIELD OF VIEW is completely bonkers. AS you know full well with Vive you get 110. Now image TWICE of that in PiMaX8.

Not resolution but 200 fov is the real gamechanger.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
Frodo's E3 VR game:


FROMSOFT WANT TO MAKE YOU A FAIRY:


Elder Scrolls Blades:



 
Last edited:

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
News about the Steam Knuckles, it has a thumbstick now and looks a lot more like the Oculus Touch Controllers (which I overall regard as good news, since they are ergonomically awesome) with various additional features, but it seems they still ain't ready to ship yet: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1411984190
8DFE5710117D471A755AEAD9B2AB6256DEFC6095

Knuckles EV2: What's New

Introduction

Over the past year we've sent out a number of Knuckles EV 1.3 developer kits to VR developers. The feedback we received, along with the results of extensive playtesting across a wide swath of players, led to significant updates to the design.

While it's still recognizable as Knuckles, very little of EV 1.3 was left untouched:
  • Improved industrial design and ergonomics
  • Updated input set and layout
  • Improved strap fit and feel for more hand sizes
  • New sensors, enabling new interactions
  • Improved battery life, USB-C charging port
  • Added support for SteamVR Tracking 2.0

The team has been hard at work on these changes, and we are excited to share what's new with Knuckles EV2 with the VR developer community.



Industrial Design and Ergonomics

With EV2, Knuckles has been modernized and updated with a new design. From a form and function perspective it keeps everything that made EV 1.3 great and improves upon it.


  • The tracking fin now provides better tracking, and there's more room for larger hands around the handle.
  • The handle has been sculpted to be more comfortable for a wider range of hand sizes (we are targeting hands in the 5th to 95th percentiles).
  • The strap can now be adjusted for different hand sizes, and it's made with an easy-to-clean anti-microbial material.
  • The top input surface has been reconsidered to ensure that both small and large hands can access all of the inputs.


Thumbstick and Track Button

Thumbstick
Unsurprisingly, one of the loudest bits of feedback we received from developers was around inputs - specifically Thumbsticks. There are definitely benefits to Thumbsticks over Trackpads when performing indirect interactions, like return-to-center force feedback. When controlling a third-person character, vehicle, or yourself, having this persistent feedback is valuable - especially when your vision is obstructed.

While one of our main goals with Knuckles is to enable great direct interactions, we know that indirect interactions in VR cannot be disregarded. And so we made room for a Thumbstick in Knuckles EV2.

Track Button
With EV2 we're introducing another new input - the Track Button. This thumb shaped groove takes the best parts of the old trackpad and distills them:
  • It can be "the big button" for your game
  • It's a natural place to rest your thumb
  • It's still a trackpad - detect thumb 'Y' position (and a surprising amount of 'X')
In addition, the new Track Button is not actually a mechanical button. Instead, beneath its surface, there is a force sensor. This means that the controller (and content) can detect a range of force, from a light touch to a full press, expanding its capabilities beyond a simple mechanical button. We're excited to see what developers will do with this new input - more on this in a second.



Cap Sense

Since we shipped EV 1.3, the team has been hard at work updating the finger tracking capabilities of Knuckles. Several software updates later, we have auto-calibration and much higher fidelity finger tracking. EV2 takes advantage of all these software improvements while updating the underlying hardware to allow for even more advances in future updates.

In addition to finger tracking along the grip and trigger, all of the buttons, the track button, and the thumbstick have cap sense capabilities. This additional layer of input allows for higher fidelity thumb tracking, and is available for developers to utilize in their content.

Finger tracking is now accessed through SteamVR Skeletal Input. Knuckles estimate finger positions and then passes that data off to the driver which interprets that into 31 bone transforms. This can be used to much more deeply engage the user with whatever virtual reality they are currently experiencing. For more information about SteamVR Skeletal Input, view this blog post.



Force Sensors

With Knuckles EV2, we are adding force sensors to the list of inputs developers can utilize. These sensors are in two places - beneath the Track Button, and in the Grip 'saddle' area.


These force sensors allow for a much wider range of potential inputs:
  • Analog - Detect a ramp of pressure from a light touch to a hard squeeze
  • Digital - Both the Grip and the Track Button can behave as a digital input. Simply choose a force threshold for activation and fire a haptic to mimic the behavior of a mechanical button
  • Multistep - Combination of the above
  • Disabled - if your content does not need this functionality, this sensor can of course be ignored.

This will give developers the ability to map much more direct interactions and behaviors to in-game actions - like grabbing, pinching, crushing, charging, activating, equipping, and more.

In addition, the force sensors can be used in conjunction with capacitive sensors to enable higher fidelity interactions. With these two sensors working together, we can detect the full range of the hand position - from completely open, to holding the controller lightly, to gripping it tightly. This helps us understand user intent and makes things like "pickup and throw" with Knuckles EV2 much improved. We're excited to see what developers will do with this new capability.



Adjustable Strap

As mentioned above, the strap has been updated in several ways to accommodate a larger range of hands.

The top of the strap can now be adjusted to one of four positions around the rim of the input surface. This is to allow for different size hands and different length thumbs to reach the inputs comfortably. To learn more about adjusting the strap to best fit your hand, see the Quick Start guide.



The strap has a semi-rigid plastic insert that conforms to the back of the hand - acting as a guide to place the hand in the proper position, and also to provide greater surface area to prevent slippage. We believe this is a great upgrade from the previous strap, both in terms of comfort and ergonomics.



Battery Life

We've increased the battery capacity with Knuckles EV2 controllers, and they now have up to a 6 hour battery life.

These controller charge from a USB Type-C connector at up to 900mA, and they take about an hour and a half of charging to reach full charge (when using a dedicated USB charge port).

Knuckles EV2 Content

As of this post, there is only one piece of content that takes advantage of all the features of Knuckles EV2, and that is Moondust. This content was created while we were developing Knuckles EV2. It's been crucial to testing and vetting our ideas, and has proven to be a great way to introduce new users to these controllers.

Knuckles EV2 developers, you can add the Moondust Demo to your Library here.[steam//install] Look for SteamVR Knuckles Tech Demos in Library > Games.

Take a look and try things out - features specific to Knuckles EV2 are highlighted and demonstrated with this content.
  • Crush rocks using the new force sensor
  • Drive moon buggies using the new thumbstick
  • Piece together a space station with your fingertips
  • Prime grenades with a squeeze
  • Throw objects naturally using a combination of force sensors and cap sense

To learn more about Moondust and what the developers learned while creating it, visit this guide, or watch this video.

In addition, you should try your other favorite games in VR. Some will work right off the bat, and some may require some tweaking. With the update to SteamVR Input, you can go in and adjust the button configurations for Knuckles. Don't forget to share your configs on the workshop!

As for your own content, please update to the new SteamVR Input system - this will make editing bindings across all current and future controllers (including Knuckles) that much easier. For details, view our OpenVR SDK 1.0.15[github.com] page and the documentation[github.com] to see how to enable native support in their applications.

Knuckles EV2 Documentation


Use these guides to get started with the Knuckles EV2 Dev Kit and learn about its capabilities.
Next Steps

So what now?

If you received a Knuckles EV2 developer kit, please try out and use the new controllers. See above for information about demo content and guides for developing with Knuckles EV2.

Please take this content and documentation and think about out how your existing content can be updated to take advantage of the new inputs. In addition, think about potential future content that would be great with Knuckles.

The Knuckles team will be available on the discussion boards, which are private to Knuckles developers. Please use this as a space to ask questions, share observations and feedback, and learn from each other.

If you're a developer interested in participating in the developer kit program, you can apply on the Steam Partner page. Log in, and look for "VR Developer Kit Request" along the right side of the page.
 
Last edited:

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
Played today Doom VFR.

Mixed feelings. At one hand it is nudoom which i liked but it is completely separate campaign which i don't like.
Secondly while understand slowmo locomotion thing i don't like it. It doesn't fit doom at all.
Btw. if you're disappointed with DOOM VFR, remember there are always Mods for some other games on PC that add full Vive/Oculus support including Controller and hand/weapon movement like for DOOM3: BFG and Alien: Isolation:




https://github.com/KozGit/DOOM-3-BFG-VR
https://github.com/Nibre/MotherVR/releases/



There's also apparently a group of Modders still working on a Half Life VR Mod to overhaul the game, although there's not been any news for quite a while on that front, wouldn't be surprised if the devs possibly got free Knuckles Controllers and might be working towards its release though: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=923491647 https://www.reddit.com/r/hlvr/

And the more I browse Steam and other places for interesting VR games, the more I realize that Steam Discovery for games is FUBAR. You only/mainly get to see the popular ones if you browse the VR category by Top Sales or What's Being Experienced: https://store.steampowered.com/vr/#p=0&tab=TopSellers
https://store.steampowered.com/sale/vrsummersale/

When I go through the "Discovery Queue" there's a seemingly untold amount of complete garbage that Steam can show to me, but none of the even slightly interesting seeming VR games like In Death, SACRALITH: Archer's Tale (Archer games), FORM (Sci-Fi Puzzle), Unknightly (Thief clone), Apex Construct, Karnage Chronicles (RPG), EVERSPACE (Space Rogue-like), House of the Dying Sun (Space Sim), End Space, VR "Megapack" (Darknet, Cosmic Trip, Balsters of the Universe), Kartong - Death by Cardboard!, Downward Spiral: Horus Station, Marshmallow Melee, The American Dream, Alice Mystery Garden, Phantasma VR, Scanner Sombre (by Introversion), Sublevel Zero (Descent clone), IronWolf VR (Submarine game), Primordian, Heroes of the Seven Seas VR, Interkosmos, Combat Tested, A-Tech Cybernetic VR, NeverBound, Ghost Town Mine Ride, Horror of the Deep (Horror games), Ultrawings, Luna etc.

Many of them have high ratings, and a bunch of them look intriguing or at least interesting, but you'll never stumble upon any of them using Steam's Discovery since not many people apparently played them.
 
Last edited:

Matticus

Educated
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
82
I know it's a while off, but I just want a jurassic park VR game with elements of trespasser and alien isolation.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom