Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Frogwares' Sherlock Holmes: Crimes & Punishments

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
For anyone still interested who hasn't tried it, I think Crimes & Punishments is super incline.

I'm generally sour on adventure games, because the "I'm stumped" moments are always linked to having to guess some nonsensical way to proceed. C&P doesn't hide any of the process from you; it's a slow accumulation of clues, associated by deduction to arrive at conclusions. To me this is the pure essence of what a detective game should be.

The puzzle sections, and yes, even the dog sequences, are lightly sprinkled throughout and give a nice sense of pacing. None of them are very hard, but they are good speed bumps to break up what would otherwise be monolithic walls of text. These sections are always at least marginally sensible, and make me feel like I'm doing something to earn my clues ... even when it's a straightforward series of operations like "pick up eyedropper, drop acid onto metal, observe results". Some of them are bona fide puzzles requiring crunchy brain work, but if you are looking for hardcore gameplay challenges, this may not be for you.

The really wonderful thing about the game is that the deduction system lets you be wrong. There's no mechanical penalty whatsoever to screwing up - you can finish the whole game and never get a right answer. The game provides numerous red herrings and false conclusions to pursue, and if you're simply bashing through like an action gamer, trying to "win" as quickly as possible, you probably will ... and you'll probably be wrong. As you collect the clues, though, you are given a great deal of "soft" information that will lead you to the correct solution. It's demanding my attention in a way no game has before. This makes RPS's accusation of "inevitability" completely backwards and dumb. It's inevitable that you will find enough evidence to reach a conclusion; that's it. It is probable, though not guaranteed, that you'll accumulate all available clues, and by testing deductive permutations, unlock all available solutions ... but even then, arriving at the correct one requires thoughtful consideration.

If they keep this system for future games, they've earned a new regular customer.
a lot of what you say is true, and in general the game is a solid game from a detective case standpoint. however, there are a few issues that really annoyed me.

mainly- the handholding the game does in your investigation. the game explicitly tells you the number of clues, and basically shoves it your face when it's time to use clues/sherlock's intuition. this is by far the worst offender. because simply there isnt much gameplay or clue processing on your part, the game does it for you. you are also are informed whether or not there are more clues, and if you collect all of them (pretty easy), the picture is pretty much clear for all cases (with couple of details left to infer/guess in a couple)

also, the deduction board is nice, but it has too many restrictions and can be trial and errored into something merely by looking through few combinations of clues/deductions that do exist.

I think this guy has the best post on how I feel (no thats not me):
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/1478/P150/#72176

anyway, my favorite cases were the train (really nice setup, enjoyed that one a lot) and the bathhouse (again, sweet setup). I think the game has amazing visuals/sound and atmosphere, while having some interesting concepts at work .if it had better interactivity and non-hand holding gameplay, Id praise it. as such, it was pretty disappointing to me, but still imo well worth the money I paid.

seems to be a moot point anyway though, since their new SH game looks like assasins creed, literally. doubt we'd see deduction board or mundane detective work in that one *sigh*
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,538
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
mainly- the handholding the game does in your investigation. the game explicitly tells you the number of clues, and basically shoves it your face when it's time to use clues/sherlock's intuition. this is by far the worst offender. because simply there isnt much gameplay or clue processing on your part, the game does it for you. you are also are informed whether or not there are more clues, and if you collect all of them (pretty easy), the picture is pretty much clear for all cases (with couple of details left to infer/guess in a couple)
I can see why you'd feel differently, but I love it that the game tells you when to stop looking for clues (as seems to in the rest of the series). "I'm not sure what to do, better pixel hunt my way through these 5 apparently empty locations again to make sure I didn't miss anything" fucking sucks.

You are right, though, about some cases needing much more ambiguity. I also think you should have to commit to your solution before you see the ending scene - once I changed my mind about a solution because the ending was so flat, I knew it couldn't be canon. Either that or they should put more effort into making every ending scene seem legit.

seems to be a moot point anyway though, since their new SH game looks like assasins creed, literally. doubt we'd see deduction board or mundane detective work in that one *sigh*
I'm worried, too; they're hyping action way too much. Really really hope they at least keep wrong answers as part of the system.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,404
Location
Djibouti
Picked it up for sale, played for like 2 hours, so far I'm liking it a lot. It's kind of popamole and definitely a decline in difficulty from the previous Sherlock games, but it still remains witty and clever.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,404
Location
Djibouti
And finished.

It's interesting, because I really liked it a lot, even though it has plenty of elements that could be potential dealbreakers.

I dislike the general decline in comparison to the previous titles in terms of gameplay. There's a shitton of handholding, there are QTEs, the input-an-answer riddles are gone, puzzles are much, much easier and even less prominent, etc.

But despite all that it has one element that requires lots of brainpower and is insanely satisfying - the moment you gather all the clues and have to form the correct conclusion. There is no handholding to be had here, you are finally left on your own, and ho boy, some of those are really tough to put together because of all the seemingly conflicting evidence, red herrings and suspects having legit motives. Sometimes arriving at the proper conclusion hinges on a single bit of dialogue or on very careful observation, I really loved that! Not to mention how some of the evidence fucking toys with you and serves only to provide confusion. My favourite two examples:

1. The garden murder - when you see that the victim's son is red-eyed and has wept recently, at first I disregarded him completely. But then it hit me that he could be weeping not from grief, but because of the smoke rising from the fireplace with burnt evidence.

2. The manor murder & robbery - you first disregard the Randall gang completely because it's such a low-hanging fruit. But then you learn more about the murder being definitely done by a sailor, and it fucking hits you that the Randalls used to be pirates.

It's just a shame that there's no real negative consequence for reaching a wrong conclusion, except for feeling like a dummy.

I also thought all the stories and cases were really well realised and interesting, I particularly liked the disappearing train. The game's format with disjointed 'levels' was very fun, and it makes me wonder whether this wasn't originally planned as episodic or something.

And finally, the atmosphere, wit, etc, were all propa Sherlock Holmes, which I thought was very welcome after the needlessly extra-grimdark Testament of Sherlock Holmes. Getting the old voice actor for Sherlock back (or at least I think that's him?) is also a godsend.

In the end I'd say that Crimes and Punishments was overall much more fun than Testament, although worse than The Awakened/Arsene Lupin/Jack the Ripper, mostly cuz of the decline in gameplay. If it had the same puzzle quality as the previous ones, I'd probably put it at #2 after The Awakened, hell, maybe even #1.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,538
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's just a shame that there's no real negative consequence for reaching a wrong conclusion, except for feeling like a dummy.
Strongly disagree. If there was a game over screen or a "you lost points" notification, it would just be more handholding. The fact that you make your decision and live with it is fantastic. I just wish it removed those notifications about "99% of other players chose this solution" because I don't want to be told whether I got it right.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,404
Location
Djibouti
Strongly disagree. If there was a game over screen or a "you lost points" notification, it would just be more handholding. The fact that you make your decision and live with it is fantastic.

No, I mean having the effects of these decisions transfer somehow into the later parts of the game (other than getting a post-ending letter in the next level). Obviously that's pretty hard to do with the structure (6 completely disconnected cases), but still.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,538
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Oh yeah, C&P, would you say it's worth giving it a shot? It sounded like a pretty cool concept but I'm looking at the price tag and being like "Well this sounds great but I usually suck at these, so maybe I should wait for a 99% discount first..?"
Down to $15? Absolutely, I think it's a brilliant detective game. Note that the next one Devil's Daughter is not as good, I don't recommend it.
Then again some other guy I recommended C&P to for the sale didn't like it, so grain of salt and all that.
Just remember, don't use spoilers and don't accuse your first suspect right away. I didn't know how to play at first so screwed up the first couple cases. Keep investigating until you're sure.
Are there time limits or anything of the sort?
No time limits. Take it as slow as you like. Or if you get impatient just grab the first guy you see and accuse him.
 

Deathsquid

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
382
Oh yeah, C&P, would you say it's worth giving it a shot? It sounded like a pretty cool concept but I'm looking at the price tag and being like "Well this sounds great but I usually suck at these, so maybe I should wait for a 99% discount first..?"
Down to $15? Absolutely, I think it's a brilliant detective game. Note that the next one Devil's Daughter is not as good, I don't recommend it.
Then again some other guy I recommended C&P to for the sale didn't like it, so grain of salt and all that.
Just remember, don't use spoilers and don't accuse your first suspect right away. I didn't know how to play at first so screwed up the first couple cases. Keep investigating until you're sure.
Are there time limits or anything of the sort?
No time limits. Take it as slow as you like. Or if you get impatient just grab the first guy you see and accuse him.
Cool! Thanks. I hate time limits in my games, as if my work didn't time limit me enough.
 

taxalot

I'm a spicy fellow.
Patron
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
9,613
Location
Your wallet.
Codex 2013 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I have started playing it ; currently on the second case.
I really do not know what to think, it's nothing like I expected. It's... nice ? Especially the fact that you are able to wrongly accuse people and just, well, be wrong.... but otherwise ? There is not much of a game, the characters are unlikable. The environments, so far, have been pretty bland. I think I'll get to finish it but I probably will not play Devil's Daughter at this rate.
 

v1rus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,253
Finished the first case. Interesting game. I pretty much share the sentiments with other posters.

Now - When should I check what the correct answer was? After solving the case, before moving to next one? Or should I wait for the end of the game?
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Btw., the game's on GOG now and currently on sale for 6 bucks until 4th of november during their Halloween sale.
That's the lowest price it ever had afaik (outside some keystores maybe) and well worth it.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,759
mainly- the handholding the game does in your investigation. the game explicitly tells you the number of clues, and basically shoves it your face when it's time to use clues/sherlock's intuition. this is by far the worst offender. because simply there isnt much gameplay or clue processing on your part, the game does it for you. you are also are informed whether or not there are more clues, and if you collect all of them (pretty easy), the picture is pretty much clear for all cases (with couple of details left to infer/guess in a couple)

I just completed the first case, and while I enjoy it, the amount of handholding via icon prompts is insulting. 8 years on, has anyone worked out a mod to remove those icon prompts? I expect it wouldn't be hard for someone who's familiar with unpacking and modifying UE3, but the amount of people who know how to do that plus are interested in a game like this is probably vanishingly small...
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,759
mainly- the handholding the game does in your investigation. the game explicitly tells you the number of clues, and basically shoves it your face when it's time to use clues/sherlock's intuition. this is by far the worst offender. because simply there isnt much gameplay or clue processing on your part, the game does it for you. you are also are informed whether or not there are more clues, and if you collect all of them (pretty easy), the picture is pretty much clear for all cases (with couple of details left to infer/guess in a couple)

I just completed the first case, and while I enjoy it, the amount of handholding via icon prompts is insulting. 8 years on, has anyone worked out a mod to remove those icon prompts? I expect it wouldn't be hard for someone who's familiar with unpacking and modifying UE3, but the amount of people who know how to do that plus are interested in a game like this is probably vanishingly small...
I'm talking to myself here, but that was actually really easy. You still get some critical prompts, I don't know how but it's actually good so that you don't miss certain scripted reveals, plus the prompts on the loading screen are there, but gone are the nagging deduction prompts.

Backup and replace SH7Input.ini in your SH7Game\Config folder with this, enjoy less annoying prompts!
 

Attachments

  • SH7Input.ini.zip
    10.2 KB · Views: 83

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom