Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Fallen Gods - upcoming Norse saga-inspired roguelite from Wormwood Studios

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
Also, McKillip is in general a terrible namer, there's typically one ridiculously bad name per book; it's almost like a signature.
I don't know anything about that, haven't read any of her works (I think). I just don't see a problem with Ghisteslwchlohm - it's fairly easy to read once you realize that "w" is used as a vowel (which it does in Welsh), and it sounds reasonably Celtic.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Also, McKillip is in general a terrible namer, there's typically one ridiculously bad name per book; it's almost like a signature.
I don't know anything about that, haven't read any of her works (I think). I just don't see a problem with Ghisteslwchlohm - it's fairly easy to read once you realize that "w" is used as a vowel (which it does in Welsh), and it sounds reasonably Celtic.
(1) The name is 15 characters long and has 3 vowels. Even sitting here today, I can't tell you how many syllables it has or even remotely how to pronounce it ... Gis-te-sluch-loam? (AFAICR, there was nothing to tell you to pronounce the W as a U, but that still doesn't help.)
(2) For a writer who cares about euphony, as McKillip does, including a name that the reader almost certainly will not sound out at all, and if he tries will almost certainly sound out wrong, is insane. It basically means that every line in which the name appears, the rhythm and sound of the language is lost or broken.
(3) The fact that there's a big twist about a character named Ohm really being Ghisteslwchlohm is ridiculous. I didn't particularly like the joke in Lord of Light, but at least there, there's a logic to it (insofar as it takes a long foreign name and replaces it with a short familiar one), and it is deliberately done to allow the reader to actually sound out the character's name in ordinary reading, not as a gotcha surprise.

That said, I know there are many readers of fantasy who delight in apostrophes, diacritics, and Welsh letter salads -- nevertheless, I have my druthers.
 

Quantomas

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
260
Even sitting here today, I can't tell you how many syllables it has or even remotely how to pronounce it ... Gis-te-sluch-loam?
Ghis-tes-lock-lo:m -- Phonetically not all that bad. But I have to admit that I would be clueless as well how to pronounce it, if I encountered it the first time. Maybe the lesson from this is, if you encounter an unfathomable name in a book, come up with a pronunciation that rings true with you.
 

Quantomas

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
260
Quantomas Totally true about the order you read. Part of what I loved about Forgotten Beasts was that it was almost a "drawing room" fantasy novel -- no cast of thousands, no sweep of nations and millennia, just a story about a person that happens to be a fantasy story. Almost inevitably, the same qualities that you praised about Riddlemaster were thus off-putting rather than endearing for me. But I agree that she, like LeGuin, Tolkien, and other master fantasists was able to create a rich new world without spending the bazillion pages that some fantasy authors churn out in their lesser efforts.
Back to your games, it appears that you favour the drawing room approach. Practically all your works adhere to it and feature well defined concepts, from Primordia over the meres in TTON, like the meres with the Whale, Matkina, Inheritence, Puzzlebreaker, to your larger effort with Inifere, your upcoming Strangeland and now FG. It's like a common theme, with each subsequent iteration becoming a little less constrained and bolder.

Maybe you have already seen this article on Eurogamer, how ideas of civilisation have shaped gaming. It's worth a read. It seems you have avoided its main pitfall, possibly because your drawing room approach requires you to define a setting properly, and in-depth if it is meant to become art.

Yet, I do hope, that one day you will learn to appreciate the power that comes with infinity and open worlds. Technically the objects that you find in an open world are not all that different from those in a drawing room. You give infinity and large scale concepts shape just the same way. A large unknown and wild land will take shape as you examine it, as you recognize that it has mountains and lakes and rivers, landscapes take form, and then you envision places and life within it. That's true for everything. A drawing room can contain just as many infinite concepts as an open world.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
A drawing room can contain just as many infinite concepts as an open world.
That’s very Borgesian of you. :)

I think your assessment of me is basically right. I prefer smaller scale because it seems more manageable. But my mindset may be wrong, as you suggest.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Update #6: Mappa Mundi
Fallen Gods Update #6: Mappa Mundi


You walk in the gloom of old firs, lost in thought, the world still but for your shuffling steps, the low-growing rowan blown by the breeze, and far-off birds softly purling. When at last you shake loose from this wood-spell, you find the path long gone, and the day’s last span is spent in merely getting back.

Fallen Gods is a game focused on exploration. While that includes mechanical and narrative layers of exploration, the first and most basic layer is simply walking the land, seeking opportunity and avoiding danger.

The promise of a wonder-filled world to explore is one of the great pleasures of fantasy novels and RPGs. As civilized pleasures go, this one has a long pedigree: medieval maps purporting to depict the real world, such as the Hereford Mappa Mundi, look much closer to a Might & Magic map than what we would find in a contemporary atlas. In fact, even modern tourist maps retain some of this breathless excitement, a kind of simultaneous streamlining and exaggerating of the world to emphasize “points of interest” and tantalize the traveler with the adventure to be found at them.

This “point of interest” concept is, literally, used to describe map features in RPGs and strategy games. As I discussed in the “Days of Yore” update, one of the key inspirations forFallen Gods was the old board game Barbarian Prince, a single-player board game that used a large, hex-celled map. And you can see such “points of interest” here: the Ruins of Pelgar at the end of the Lost Road beyond the Kabir Desert; Branwyn’s Temple at the crook of the Nesser River; the town of Angleae that sits just south of the pass leading into the Dead Plains. Even a jaded and weary old timer like me still feels a certain tug of wanderlust when looking over that map.

Very early incarnations of Fallen Gods had a hex map (using some free-for-use tiles) that looked quite a bit like an uglier version of Barbarian Prince. But the addition of the wonderful Daniel Miller to the team meant that we could do better than that. And, as Arnold Hendricks himself discovered when making the jump from his board game to the cRPG Darklands, pixel art can create a more natural feel to the world: it looks like a land in which you’re adventuring, rather than a map over which you’re moving a token.

But while Darklands’ pixels furnish an attractive landscape that underscores the game’s well-researched realism, they seemed to lack a certain pizzazz when I first played the game. The reason, I think, is that I had spent formative childhood years playing console RPGs, and Chrono Trigger’s beautiful world maps had left a lasting impression on me.

So, with Fallen Gods, the impossible marching orders I gave Dan were to create hex tiles (which are useful for defining the game’s rules for world generation, movement, and the like) that fit together into a seamless pixel art world with distinctive points of interest. I’m pretty sure I used some word as unhelpful as “pizzazz,” perhaps with a wave of a hand. Dan, busy with his bowl of greasy phở (nothing but the best for our artists!), merely shrugged.

And then gave us this:


While this mock-up has a somewhat higher density of “points of interest” than you would see in the actual game, it is nevertheless fairly close to the real thing. In the actual game, points of interest fall into four general categories: (1) dwellings (steadings, towns, strongholds, and shrines); (2) dungeons (caves, marshes, and barrows); (3) locations; and (4) encounters.

Dwellings

When the fallen god reaches a dwelling, the player is given a menu of options for how to interact with it, similar to Darklands. The god can rest, buy food, hire followers, gather lore, and, in some instances, resolve crises to his advantage. But each kind of dwelling has its own distinctive characteristics.

Steadings—“villages,” if the word weren’t impermissibly French—are the lowest tier of civilization in Fallen Gods. They can be found on the plains (most commonly), in woods, or up in the hills. They are a fine place to recruit the lowest tier of follower, churls, who—overawed by the presence of a god and eager to escape a life of drudgery—will follow for free. In woodsteads, you can also find woodsmen (who are good guides and hunters, and whose archery can give you an edge in pre-combat skirmishing), and in hillsteads, where raiding is commonplace, you can find the occasional fighter. The lore steadings offer is mostly local gossip (i.e., information about nearby points of interest) and the quests tend to revolve around local issues such as feuds, food shortages, wolf problems, and the like. Since all steadings are centered around food gathering (farming, hunting, and grazing), food is usually inexpensive. And since the local headman is a petty leader, the obligatory guest-gift to rest in his hall is relatively light.

Towns, always located on either coasts or riverbanks, are hubs of trade and commerce. Churls still make up most of the population, but there are also mercenary fighters to be hired. Food is more expensive than in steadings (given the greater demand and proportionally smaller supply), as is rest, befitting the greater stature of a town’s thane. The lore tends to be broader—reflecting the wide-roaming nature of the town’s long ships—and the quests are directed seaward, dealing with plagues or visitors from abroad, river monsters or beached whales. A unique aspect of towns is that you can hire a ship to take you to any other town on the map, a quick way to travel in a game where time is the one resource that can’t be regained.

Strongholds are the seats of power for jarls, the highest-ranking leaders in a world where Orm has insisted on keeping his kingship even after becoming a god. Fighters are plentiful, and the god can also hire a skald here. The jarl’s own skald provides a rich source of lore, including not merely about what is going on in the land but about where legendary treasures and foes may be found. Stronghold quests reflect the intriguing that goes on around the powerful, particularly regarding matters of succession.

Shrines are dedicated to the worship of Orm and the Ormfolk, and are thus a welcome haven for the fallen god. The priests who tend the shrine and its holy fire will, for a suitable offering to their principal god Orm, provide magnificent healing services to any who rest within their temple. And if the god has no priest following him, the shrine will gladly provide one, to advise him on the laws of gods and men and to provide healing on the road. As for information, shrines’ loremasters know more than anyone, and thus a god can learn much about lost relics and the like. Finally, quests in shrines tend to be about questions of doctrine, performance of rituals, resolution of schisms, and similar theological issues.

Dungeons

Unlike dwellings, which primarily offer comfort and support, dungeons are interesting as challenges. In essence, they are a stack of event “cards,” with the bottom-most card presenting a significant reward but also a significant challenge, and the upper cards presenting obstacles that wear down the god’s strength and resources. As with dwellings, however, there are distinctions among them.

Barrows—the characteristic above-ground burial mounds of the Norse—are the smallest dungeons, and indeed they are almost always only one “card” deep. There are many barrows on the map. A few contain nothing, a few contain minimal threats and rewards, and a few contain more significant adversaries. In general, barrows naturally feature the dead (draugar in Fallen Gods’ parlance), though one may also meet cavewights, outlaws, wizards, and wurms.

Caves can be of varying depth (from three to seven events down) and are full of subterranean foes: wolves making dens in the upper levels, trolls and trollshards seeking shelter from the sun, and cavewights and dwergs for whom these depths are home. Some dead from times long past may be interred in the depths, and wurms and other ancient evils can likewise be found at the bottom.

There is a single marsh dungeon on the map, and it is the largest dungeon, befitting the wending swamp paths. The waters are full of the unhallowed dead left behind in theOverthrow, as well as bogwights and worse. At the heart of a marsh a god may find a rotting Firstborn god, an encampment of dead men still fighting the old wars, a wise witch, or a wurm who thinks himself a king. Thematically, if caves are about the dark unknown and the preservation of the past, swamps are about filth and the decay of the present.

Locations

Locations, as the generic name should suggest, are much more common and much more varied than the points of interest described above. Locations are events that spawn when the world is created and persist until the player triggers them (i.e., by entering the hex containing the location). In almost all instances, once the event is triggered it no longer persists—the location may still be a visible map feature, but there will no longer be anything to do there.

While the player can see the entire map when the game begins, locations are shown in a way that makes their nature somewhat non-obvious. When the god draws near, the location resolves into a clearer state. For instance, what initially appeared to be large boulders may turn out to be dead trolls. A tall pole may turn out to be the binding place of an outlawed berserk or a scorn pole with a horse’s head atop it.

The map will include many features like boulders or cairns or farm houses that are not location events; as the player draws near, they will not resolve into anything more interesting, and entering the hex will not cause an event to trigger. Thus, while the player may have some guesses about where he can go, he won’t know for sure that a map feature is a location event until he either investigates it, gathers lore about it in a dwelling, or uses the Foresight skill (at the cost of a soul) to scry it out from a distance. Bird fetches (ravens or eagles) have the benefit of expanding the god’s range of investigation, such that he can discern location events from a greater distance than a god with a wolf or fox fetch.

Encounters

Finally, encounters are transient events. They spawn as the god explores the world, appearing at the edge of his range of exploration. If he does not investigate quickly, the encounter disappears for good. An encounter might involve a churl bringing his harvest to market, a songspeaker hastening down the road on his unholy horse, or a pair of outlaws splitting the fruits of a murder. While other points of interest help make the world feel like more than empty space, encounters help bring it to life by suggesting that things happen on their own, and resolve on their own, rather than waiting in abeyance until the god deigns to intervene. Moreover, because they spawn near the god, encounters ensure that there is always something interesting to do, even when doubling back across ground you’ve already covered.


* * *
A great deal of content is necessary in order for these points of interest to work in the context of a game designed for multiple play sessions in different procedurally generated worlds. As explained in prior posts, and as will be discussed in more detail in later posts, events themselves permit considerable replay because there are so many paths through them, and which paths are available depends on the god’s skills, items, followers, fetch, and resources. But equally important in capturing the cartographical thrill when the player first sees the world map is making sure that there is a great variety of events as well: that players will enter new towns, see new map features, and be surprised by new encounters while exploring. This content creation, which entails literally hundreds of events with associated painted illustrations and recorded narration, is probably the single most time-consuming aspect of Fallen Gods’ development. But, hopefully, it will be worth it in the end.

NEXT UPDATE: Followers
Incidentally, the combat-oriented update I had planned has been held up due to a lack of coding implementation of the combat overhaul -- no point in a faux update regarding something that doesn't really exist.
 

Quantomas

Savant
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
260
Great exemplary update that hits the mark, it educates the readers on the subject and informs them of the development.

There is more to maps than points of interest serving as hooks. These serve as a guide, how relevant the locations are, to let the reader make informed decisions on where to go. My initial impression on the first map you showed (the one with the animations) was that it looked a bit bland with too much information crammed into the details. That's a natural reaction to a map style you encounter the first time. Your subsequent explanations of the dwellings, dungeons, locations and their relevance put everything in its right place. The next time I looked at the map I had learned to read it and its elegance and beauty shone through. Maybe it makes sense to show the players a key to the map objects with a brief explanation of their relevance before they begin their exploration in earnest.

The other thing about maps is their continuity. People see how far the locations are from each other, and intuitively make plans what locations to visit in which order, what obstacles are present and what dangers to brave. A good map is valuable, as it was since ancient times, and it invites exploration.

Kudos on the artwork. In general it is good and creatively great, but there is a difference in the quality of the pieces, so it might be worth to do a dedicated review of the artwork at the end of the development cycle to make improvements where necessary. The game will benefit from it. My favourite art this time is the marsh. It perfectly conveys its impenetrable and dangerous nature, a far cry from the parks we are used to today.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Thanks!

Agreed that when we hit the finish line, and art pass will be warranted.
 

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,004
Every update gets me more excited about this game. I'm hoping it scratches the itch left by playing Darklands and never again finding a game that does anything similar.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Well, let me tamp down your excitement, as is my wont. To me, Darklands is defined as much as anything else by three things: (1) a specific, real historical setting, albeit with period-appropriate fantastical elements; (2) an original and awesome character (party) creation system; and (3) an absurd degree of systemic complexity designed to fit the historical setting (136 saints, 66 alchemical recipes, gear, etc.). Fallen Gods fails to deliver on all three of those. First, while it is loosely inspired by Commonwealth Iceland (and Viking Age Scandinavia more generally), its world diverges so heavily from the historical reality that I would say it is more in "ASOIAF is inspired by the War of the Roses" than even "Tigana is inspired by Renaissance Italy," let alone the precision of the medieval Germany of Darklands. Second, there is no character creation system (right now, a small number of traits are randomly assigned to the god) and you only have one real character, with followers lacking any kind of detail. Third, I have deliberately and consciously set out to have simple, rather than complex, systems in Fallen Gods -- more like Barbarian Prince than Darklands, if I were analogizing to an Arnold Hendricks game. So if you enjoyed uncovering one more saint, one more potion variant, etc., or advancing incrementally in one of many skills, Fallen Gods won't give you that.

You might still like the game for other reasons, but I don't want people to hold out hopes that I will inevitably disappoint!
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
I like the update, one of my pet peeves with modern rpgs is how they fail to take advantage of mundane events and world details to make role/roll playing opportunities. It's always pack of monsters to grind, loot to gain and recycle, exposition delivered etc.
They suck at world building.
 

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,004
Well, let me tamp down your excitement, as is my wont. To me, Darklands is defined as much as anything else by three things: (1) a specific, real historical setting, albeit with period-appropriate fantastical elements; (2) an original and awesome character (party) creation system; and (3) an absurd degree of systemic complexity designed to fit the historical setting (136 saints, 66 alchemical recipes, gear, etc.). Fallen Gods fails to deliver on all three of those. First, while it is loosely inspired by Commonwealth Iceland (and Viking Age Scandinavia more generally), its world diverges so heavily from the historical reality that I would say it is more in "ASOIAF is inspired by the War of the Roses" than even "Tigana is inspired by Renaissance Italy," let alone the precision of the medieval Germany of Darklands. Second, there is no character creation system (right now, a small number of traits are randomly assigned to the god) and you only have one real character, with followers lacking any kind of detail. Third, I have deliberately and consciously set out to have simple, rather than complex, systems in Fallen Gods -- more like Barbarian Prince than Darklands, if I were analogizing to an Arnold Hendricks game. So if you enjoyed uncovering one more saint, one more potion variant, etc., or advancing incrementally in one of many skills, Fallen Gods won't give you that.

You might still like the game for other reasons, but I don't want people to hold out hopes that I will inevitably disappoint!

Thank you for the clarification! It's refreshing to hear a dev try to tame, rather than excite, player expectations.

I admit that the deep character creation process, complex systems and historical setting (though it is more like a historically accurate presentation of what medieval Germans thought the world was like) in Darklands are part of what makes it special. Nonetheless—correct me if I'm wrong—your game seems to do at least some of the things that Darklands did: CYOA-type events that can be resolved in different ways depending on party skills/resources, similar map exploration, town hubs navigable via menus, and a setting that semi-accurately utilizes the myths that some historical people once believed (or at least recited). Though I do generally prefer a complex character-creation process (I suspect much of the Codex does), and am wary that what you describe will reduce player agency and perhaps determine too much of the gameplay to depend on initial-conditions RNG.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Yeah, I think that's a fair description. We may fail in delivering those things, but that accurately describes what we're attempting.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,480
Location
Vigil's Keep
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I am late to the party, but the map update was really cool.

And if the god has no priest following him, the shrine will gladly provide one, to advise him on the laws of gods and men and to provide healing on the road.

This sentence reminded me of an old idea for a CRPG companion that would be an old guy, pretty much useless in combat, but wise and knowledgeable in many areas - he would provide advice on many subjects in-game and supply information that you would otherwise need to learn/discover on your own.

Anyway, can't wait to start exploring that world.
:hype:
 

Binky

Cipher
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
453
I don't want people to hold out hopes that I will inevitably disappoint!
Curious how arguably one of the most decent people on the Codex is filled with so much self-loathing he makes PST's Good Incarnation look happy-go-lucky. What did you do? Did someone say "Hello!" to you twenty years ago and you ignored them? Did you forget to do your homework in school and lied about it? Is this the price of creativity and originality? If so, carry on. No matter how much you downplay your abilities and belittle your accomplishments, you won't stop me from buying and playing your games.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Well, aside from biographical mysteries, it’s just better not to overpromise. I hate selling because you build hopes that are hard to satisfy. I’d rather people come to FG not knowing anything, but Vince convinced me—rightly—that selling the game is important for team morale and finding an audience. I just get anxious that when I name check truly great designers like Arnold Hendrick, I’m just preparing a disappointment for you guys.
 

Binky

Cipher
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
453
And what exactly have you "overpromised"? As far as I can tell, you're being open and honest with the community, revealing how the game is progressing. You say you hate selling, but how the hell will people play the game if they don't even know it exists? By telepathy? Vince is correct. There are thousands of games available to play. People need a reason to try yours. Regarding Arnold Hendrick: isn't the point of people we admire to motivate and inspire us to do great deeds of our own?
I’d rather people come to FG not knowing anything
I’m just preparing a disappointment for you guys
Which is it? "I'm making a game, but it will definitely suck."

How about "I'm a part of Wormwood. We made Primordia. I don't do this full time, so I can take risks and be as bold, creative, and original as I want. Here are our future projects: [insert links to games in development]"
 

Archibald

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
Well thats just his personality trait I think, I feel somewhat similar about work that I do and you can't reason with me when I get into that mode so I suspect that it is similar situation for MRY as well.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Of course Vince is right, which is why I listen to him! But my posts here aren’t about selling; the Codex already knows and trust me. I’m just trying to be candid about the game because trust is a two way street. My obligation is to exceed the trust placed in me and deliver more than what people hope for.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
Aim high, aim low, be candid, be game journalisty, somebody on the dex'll still shit on and be outrageously triggered by your game. This is a universal constant.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom