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Why the hell aren't there more "space opera" / futuristic CRPGs?

DJOGamer PT

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From a world building point of view, science fiction can do anything fantasy can, perhaps even more given it's scope.

Actually fantasy can do more than sci-fi can. Science Fiction after all cannot break any kind of scientific laws or it just stops being science fiction and becomes just fantasy.
What you are tired of is medieval fantasy settings, but there is much more fantasy settings. Both Marvel and DC are fantasy settings for example.
 

octavius

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In practice you can pick up a random SF book and you'll have no idea what the setting or plot will be beforehand.
Pick up a random Fantasy book, and if you guess that it takes places in some alternate medieval world and that there is a war going on, there's a 99% chance you will be right.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Here is a better question OP.
What do you want from a space opera RPG? Are you looking for another Mass Effect, but with actual RPG elements?

I find strategy games a perfect match for this particular theme. Starcraft, Homeworld etc.

Or board games, there's one that can literally be played for days as one session, so good. Twilight Imperium is the name, I think.

Space opera is by default on a massive time space scale, forget about any meaningful c&c, unless it's episodic, for 20 years.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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Also, some newer episode of The Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits from years ago had AI ships that bred humans to maintain them.
You're probably thinking of an episode from the '90s The Outer Limits revival called "The Human Operators", adapted from a 1971 short story of the same name written by none other than Harlan Ellison and A.E. van Vogt. +M

OMG I remember that title. That is awesome!
 

gaussgunner

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From a world building point of view, science fiction can do anything fantasy can, perhaps even more given it's scope.

Actually fantasy can do more than sci-fi can. Science Fiction after all cannot break any kind of scientific laws or it just stops being science fiction and becomes just fantasy.
What you are tired of is medieval fantasy settings, but there is much more fantasy settings. Both Marvel and DC are fantasy settings for example.

Why not? Sci-fi can be anytime, anywhere in the universe, with technology that's indistinguishable from magic, or alternate laws of nature. It can even be hard sci-fi if it's rigorously consistent with its alternate laws. Apparently 'hard fantasy' is also a thing. And of course the umbrella term 'speculative fiction', as the lines are often blurred.

To me the hallmark of fantasy isn't medieval nostalgia, it's the supernatural. Unexplained forces. If they were explained it'd be sci-fi or 'hard fantasy', but that doesn't appeal to most fantasy fans. They want writers to hand-wave over the technical details and focus on the human angle (or vampiric, elven, demonic, whatever) and epic supernatural shit. There's tons of modern fantasy. It's pulp fiction. It re-uses the same old mythological tropes. That's another hallmark of fantasy. Sci-fi doesn't have that limitation because sci-fi fans want to uncover a logical explanation for everything, so writers can write about anything with a sci/tech angle, as long as they don't make a habit of pulling science concepts out of their ass.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Actually fantasy can do more than sci-fi can. Science Fiction after all cannot break any kind of scientific laws or it just stops being science fiction and becomes just fantasy.
What you are tired of is medieval fantasy settings, but there is much more fantasy settings.

Actually you have it wrong.

I'm not tired of medieval fantasy at all. This is a thread about wanting more of one thing, not less of something else.

I want more science fiction RPGs.

Whether fantasy continues to thrive is inconsequential, although preferable.

However I did make a general point about how badly the fantasy genre is often handled, by people who don't really get it's key themes, or translate them into games in a competent way; if every game were a Planescape: Torment or Banner Saga or Fallout or KOTOR in terms of quality, then 2,000,000,000 of them would be no bother.

Both Marvel and DC are fantasy settings for example.

Marvel and DC are mixed settings in my mind, science fiction and fantasy co-existing, which in practice probably can't happen; either the metaphysics must be fundamentally natural or supernatural, so probably if pressed on the issue, they would have to admit that all the fantasy elements are the result of omnipotent alien but natural forces, or that science exists at the whim of gods. This is more or less what the movie franchises have done, with Asgardian culture or Dormammu being explicitly rationalized into an extra-dimensional alien, and magical artifacts being quantum constructs. If pressed, the comics would probably decide to come down on the science ficiton side too.

Science Fiction after all cannot break any kind of scientific laws or it just stops being science fiction and becomes just fantasy.

I was speaking of themes, rather than material events. In terms of thematic possibility, the two have a similar range. You can create any imaginable world in science fiction. You can create any imaginable world in fantasy. One might have an advantage in tackling a certain theme over the other. I wasn't sure whether one presented a greater opportunity than the other, so prefaced my point with "perhaps" to make people think about it for themselves. One area that science fiction would have the advantage would be in exploring anything surrounding naturalism. However you could have the thematic equivalent of a naturalist in a fantasy work of fiction; you could explore the latest quantum theories in a high fantasy if you wanted.

Here is a better question OP.
What do you want from a space opera RPG? Are you looking for another Mass Effect, but with actual RPG elements?

I find strategy games a perfect match for this particular theme. Starcraft, Homeworld etc.

Speaking for myself....

Say that there are various types of RPG gamer: gameplay focused, story focused, choice focused....

I personally am attracted to setting most of all; I like to explore imaginative and new societies/places, and interact with people in them, either my companions or natives; in short - to learn. I want to walk around, explore, talk, learn historical secrets, solve problems, either through intellect or force. All my favorite science fiction is like this. Starships are merely a vehicle for getting to the next alien city, jungle or ruin; people usually leave them to explore an exotic locale on foot. Star Trek is 90% drama; investigative or interpersonal. Star Wars maybe 80%, with a bit more pew pew. Gameplay is a secondary focus on my personal list of priorities. But I can imagine many people here would like a very traditional CRPG with CHARGEN and choice/consequence, which I also find highly appealing.

In order of preference, for me personally:

1). - Space games in the style of Planescape: Torment, or KOTOR II, featuring culture/philosophy/world building

2). - Space games in the style of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc, featuring less of the above, but a classic 'epic story'

3). - Space games in the style of Fallout, Arcanum, etc, featuring choice/consequence and freedom to experiment

And I would want all three in considerable numbers, to increase the pool of the genre.
 
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RNGsus

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I think because the scale can be daunting. Space opera isn't my sci fi preference, immediately I think planets with a single biome, soap opera tier plot, how much can you get away with before your space opera is a star wars fan fic? Then there's music, which will never be as good as John Williams.
 

DraQ

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From a world building point of view, science fiction can do anything fantasy can, perhaps even more given it's scope.

Actually fantasy can do more than sci-fi can. Science Fiction after all cannot break any kind of scientific laws or it just stops being science fiction and becomes just fantasy.
One person's cage is another person's ladder/scaffold.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Here is a better question OP.
What do you want from a space opera RPG? Are you looking for another Mass Effect, but with actual RPG elements?

I find strategy games a perfect match for this particular theme. Starcraft, Homeworld etc.

Speaking for myself....

Say that there are various types of RPG gamer: gameplay focused, story focused, choice focused....

I personally am attracted to setting most of all; I like to explore imaginative and new societies/places, and interact with people in them, either my companions or natives; in short - to learn. I want to walk around, explore, talk, learn historical secrets, solve problems, either through intellect or force. All my favorite science fiction is like this. Starships are merely a vehicle for getting to the next alien city, jungle or ruin; people usually leave them to explore an exotic locale on foot. Star Trek is 90% drama; investigative or interpersonal. Star Wars maybe 80%, with a bit more pew pew. Gameplay is a secondary focus on my personal list of priorities. But I can imagine many people here would like a very traditional CRPG with CHARGEN and choice/consequence, which I also find highly appealing.

In order of preference, for me personally:

1). - Space games in the style of Planescape: Torment, or KOTOR II, featuring culture/philosophy/world building

2). - Space games in the style of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc, featuring less of the above, but a classic 'epic story'

3). - Space games in the style of Fallout, Arcanum, etc, featuring choice/consequence and freedom to experiment

And I would want all three in considerable numbers, to increase the pool of the genre.

What you have described is fine for a space RPG. Isolate story to one planet, one ship etc. in order to have focus.

Space opera RPG is honestly more suited for MMO style, and look how Star Citizen is coping with that (admittedly, I think they're doing it wrong). It's just too big.
Eve online managed, but it's called a spreadsheet simulator for a reason.
 

Louis_Cypher

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What you have described is fine for a space RPG. Isolate story to one planet, one ship etc. in order to have focus.

Space opera RPG is honestly more suited for MMO style, and look how Star Citizen is coping with that (admittedly, I think they're doing it wrong). It's just too big.
Eve online managed, but it's called a spreadsheet simulator for a reason.

I think this might be taking certain definitions of space opera that emphasize scale or space warfare (for example the description on Wikipedia, which I would contest) too seriously; I don't think scale or war are necessary to space opera at all, I just see space opera as anything set in deeper space than Earth orbit really. There is no separate genre to describe other, less political, space science fiction. Bear in mind, Farscape and Star Trek are also universally identified as space opera, even on that page I mentioned, but very few Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes actually deal with war or grand strategy. A few Romulan and Cardassian stories, a couple of Borg ones, out of over a hundred episodes. War arcs are not the point of Star Trek, stand-alone stories are. Space opera need not be about grand geopolitics; but even if it was; Mass Effect and KOTOR handled scale fine, as far as I can see.

Take a random franchise - Doctor Who, for example:

Have the game's protagonist be a new Time Lord. He/she sets out in their brand new Type-44 TARDIS, on orders from the High Council of the Time Lords, to conduct a mission to a nearby world. In the course of solving the mystery on this planet, the Time Lord Protagonist discovers that the Daleks are about to attack, launching "The Last Great Time War". You get to see the start of this conflict from the perspective of a new character. He/she learns of a Dalek super-weapon (or massing army or something), and must battle the Dalek Empire and their mercenaries such as the Ogrons, in order to prevent Gallifrey being destroyed on day one. You can do anything within this formula; visit the Draconian Homeworld, or travel into the past, or under the sea, or ancient Mars to meet the Ice Warriors. I'm not even that much of a Doctor Who fan but it would be an awesome canvas. Isometric 'Torment: Doctor Who'.
 
Unwanted

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Because it's boring as fuck. So is fantasy.

What we need is abstract RPG.

You control 5 characters. Called Character1, Character2...Character5. You encounter 5 trash mobs tier 3 accompanying medium elite tier 6. You have to fight with them. There's no story, no goals, you just go through dungeons. This is the future of RPG's. Not some "settings", PHEW.
 

Networm

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Expect some will come, once people fed up with medieval setting. Mainstream books and games can render anything tedious.
 

Freddie

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You know, someboy mentioned Andromeda and it made think: it really is surprsing that nobody jumped on the Sci-Fi-RPG train after Mass Effect became a success. Considering that everyone hated the ending of 3, you could have had a big audience hungry for an Sci-Fi-RPG. Or for people who wanted more story after X-Com 1. Hell, even something like Skyrim could have worked, just switch the fantasystuff with temples of alien gods and secret Android-factories.

I mean, I know what I said about fantasystuff being easier, but Mass Effect was such a hit, SOMEBODY could have at least think about it. As a sideproject or something, not a big thing, just big enough to make a quick buck.
Yeah, it's bit weird that sleeper hit didn't get any copy cats. I don't know if it could be the owners of big franchises using their legal power to remain unchallenged or something.

In general it's interesting how much conversation is about Space Opera, when OP mentions futuristic RPG's as well. I think something like old Buck Rogers games could be doable for small studios. Then something with Mass Effect like production values, difficult I think.

However if audience is willing to compromise few things, like voice acting and perhaps accept smaller scope, Sentinel Worlds: Future Magic comes to mind, there might very well be a chance to make good Space Opera with consistent and interesting world. Interesting world needs interesting content, say side quest from the first Mass Effect that dealt with organ trafficking. For a small piece it was, it was pretty well written and added depth to certain team member and to game world. Also tonally interesting and conveyed impression that not everybody in writing team is totally out of touch what comes to real world, but could draw inspiration from that.

For Space Opera RPG I don't care if it would be top down pixel art if content is good (Star Wars and Trek die in fire good). I don't know, maybe outside of Cyber Punk studios aren't that welcoming to writers who mix reality and escapism.

Near Future or even Urban Fantasy might be easier and very much interesting settings as well. Haha, small band of people just trying to survive encounter some serious shit, but this time they are in Do No Evil, Think No Evil, near future dystopia. While small party has to deal things with guns and ammo, they also need to do cloak and dagger stuff to get information of what do and how, where political aspect comes into game. Perhaps they need to lobby and bribe politicians just to remain free and so, be able to deal with 'serious shit'. As long as there is good combat system and enough of it I guess most players would be happy. I mean Shadowrun series did pretty well, could certain themes and ideas be expanded?
 

Louis_Cypher

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Just out of interest to anyone here, I discovered the names of a couple of other forgotten space RPGs from the 1980-1990s Belle Époque of the RPG genre, courtesy of The CRPG Addict. Although I wasn't sure whether to include some of the lower ones on the list, which lean toward a starship sim, the ones nearer the top are more traditional:

- Chaos in Andromeda

- Antares


- 2088: The Cryllan Mission

- Sentinel Worlds

- Space Rogue

- Star Command

Just for completeness, I'll list others already mentioned earlier in the thread:

- Starflight 1

- Starflight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula

- MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy

- MegaTraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients

- Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday

- Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed


And just for even more completeness, let's mention the couple of upcoming indie RPGs:

- Stellar Tactics

- Colony Ship: A Post-Earth Role Playing Game

It seems that companies and small devs were much more willing to experiment with space as a setting in the early age of the RPG, and their extinction (or dormancy one hopes) happened later, around the early 1990s. The ones mentioned are about graphically on par with the forefathers of the genre, such as Ultima / Wizardry / The Bard's Tale / Might and Magic / Wasteland, but there isn't anything much graphically-equivalent to the 1991-1994 first-person grid-based gilded age of the Eye of the Beholder / Stonekeep / Lands of Lore / Dark Sun / Anvil of Dawn era of graphics, aside from Albion, and they are just not even remotely present in the RPG consciousness by the great 1997-2001 isometric golden age of Fallout / Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale / Planescape: Torment / Arcanum. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect were truly saviors of space opera role-playing. I backed StarCrawlers but it didn't really hit the spot for me, it didn't even have character portraits like Legend of Grimrock, allowing less humanization, though that was just my brief impression, and I may play it more some day.

As we know, games like Ultima and Wizardry were the progenitor of both the western RPG and (less well known) the Japanese RPG, with Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy being influenced by them; both Americans and Japanese were playing the same early CRPGs before the great divergence, when the JRPG was adapted to the tastes of Japanese audiences, with anime-inspired settings, and increasingly fixed characters/dialogue. Both Ultima and Wizardry came out of the earlier tradition of geeks adapting D&D and Tolkien to early computers as best as they could, with text-based adventures that simulated the dungeon master's role; the text and damage rolls simulated the tabletop experience with as much fidelity as possible "you enter a tomb, walls dripping with moisture, no visible way forward, what will you do?" The western CRPG kept much closer to the spirit of tabletop, with multiple solutions, dialogue choice and CHARGEN. The CRPG Addict has argued that one of the earliest of these antediluvian CRPGs in existence, predating even Ultima's progenitor Akalabeth, is "Space" from 1978. Just like people forget that Mary Shelley invented the science fiction genre in the 1800s, with Frankenstein, could it be forgotten that the earliest examples of CRPGs were keen on space? That would be some major mindfuck, but I can certainly believe it, as space is close to the heart of us geeks.

soap opera tier plot

Huh? What is a soap? I would say: Obsession with silly repetitive personal problems, and extremely unlikely twists. Gasp "he had a hidden identity", gasp "I can't admit my feelings to her", gasp "he is my brother, changed by plastic surgery", gasp! Soap opera tier plots are a curse of modern TV, but not the 1990s Golden Age of space opera, which used to be just about the only genre that eschewed this kind of cheap repetitive emotionally-juvenile drama.

The true space operas were almost entirely free of this kind of stuff. The character development was entwined with the world in a seamless, organic way. Or it was simply procedural like a police show, without much interpersonal drama, deriving entertainment from situation. In those shows that did deal with long term character development, people were personally effected by big events, such as political changes light years away. Crichton was a pawn in a galaxy-spanning arms race. G'Kar was a prideful jingoist diplomat laid low, and reborn as a great truthsayer. I blame Lost for the sudden resurgence in soap, since it used false meaning-bereft cliffhanger secrets to string viewers along for season upon season, only to reveal there was never much of a point, other than "titillate viewers with the promise of hidden meaning enough to tune in again". Lost, in my opinion, was the anti-Babylon 5, where B5 was written from beginning to end as a novel, with thematic unity, Lost was written ad hoc and was largely an ongoing exercise in marketing itself as deep.

The best thing to come to the live-action space opera genre in years is The Expanse, but we are still in the middle of a massive drought compared to the 1990s, with those few shows that make it, like Star Trek: Discovery, containing highly worrying levels of soap-like unlikelihood. Since they are adapting Foundation, The Culture, Hyperion, Dune, Red Mars, etc, in the next few years, we will see how many of them make it past Hollywood's love of making soaps.
 
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Serus

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I always saw Space Opera as a story that followed the structure of ye olde epic sagas using the settiing and resources of deep-space science-fiction.
It certainly might be that but personally I like it most when space opera mixes with politics. So basically a story about political conflicts told using the setting and resources of deep-space science--fiction. Problem is of curse that political conflicts isn't something computer rpg tend to do often (or well) so I'm not holding my breath seeing many crpg-space operas like that ever.
 
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Harry Easter

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It certainly might be that but personally I like it most when space opera mixes with politics. So basically a story about political conflicts told using the setting and resources of deep-space science--fiction. Problem is of curse that political conflicts isn't something computer rpg tend to do often (or well) so I'm not holding my breath seeing many crpg-space operas like that ever.

Hmm, yeah, games need a lot of action. But maybe a more political plot would work as a visual novel? You play a diplomat and try to maneuver between bloodthirsty factions, without killing billions of people in the end, something like that?
 

Freddie

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Just out of interest to anyone here, I discovered the names of a couple of other forgotten space RPGs from the 1980-1990s Belle Époque of the RPG genre, courtesy of The CRPG Addict. Although I wasn't sure whether to include some of the lower ones on the list, which lean toward a starship sim, the ones nearer the top are more traditional:

- Chaos in Andromeda

- Antares


- 2088: The Cryllan Mission

- Sentinel Worlds

- Space Rogue

- Star Command

Just for completeness, I'll list others already mentioned earlier in the thread:

- Starflight 1

- Starflight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula

- MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy

- MegaTraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients

- Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday

- Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed
I do recall Space Rogue fondly, but it's very hard to see it as an RPG. It's more like action/adventure and space sim hybrid. Sentinel Worlds was mentioned in this topic earlier by me. Perhaps Buck Rogers games weren't but anyway, Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday and Sentinel World (though Countdown to Doomsday is IMO better game) are games with good ideas. Devs whom consider making space opera game, or something in smaller scale, might benefit from understanding what made them work or in case of Sentinel Worlds, what worked and what perhaps uneven experience for players. Technological limitations of those days were real issue for creators to really implement their vision. We are in very different kind of situation today.
 

Beastro

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Why isnt there a Star Gate videogame, of any genre? Seems like a no brainer. Werent they funded by the Military, for advertisement or something? A shooter would be obvious choice but a BG style rpg would be cool. Heck there's even a Farscape rpg thats isometric party based. But no Star Gate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stargate_games

There exists a subset of sci-fi that is dedicated to exploring consequences of changes in fundamental laws of physics and the like - in other words it deals with stuff that is inherently implausible.
It nevertheless is sci-fi, and contains some of the hardest, most monocled stuff I have ever read - Egan's "Orthogonal" trilogy and "Dichronauts" for example - because it focuses on scientifically rigorous worldbuilding and exploring the consequences of the changes. Both examples I listed deal with universes based on different metrics of spacetime which in turn messes up pretty much all the physics (Orthogonal) or even basic geometry (Dichronauts), the plots being build around those changes, and thus not really replicable in any meaningful sense without hard sci-fi basis (the events could happen, but without the logic bridging them the resulting story would be meaningless), so no:

Can add Dragon's Egg to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Egg

Personally though this definition of Scf-Fi dealt with in the thread so far isn't what I find myself interested, which has more to do with people and societies reaction to changes, like how they developin Dune as a result of the Butlerian Jihad.

In my opinion - both Star Wars and Dune treated science the same and took a very story-prime, fantasy approach to sci-fi. I love Dune, so don't think I am knocking it or anything.

Issue is how one uses vaguely scientific things to show what society might develop into without AI and a tight rein on technological development that also has mind to the fact that this state is not a constant - eventually, as a result of Leto's death, the Imperium collapses and scientific develop continues, which results in computers that do away with Navigators.

The other sets up tech that, whether explained or not, is meaningless and is just aesthetic choices, which is why KOTOR has almost no development in tech or a reason to explain why non has happened between it and the movie era.

*at least the original book: Dune which is the one I'm talking about.

It's not just that - the worm IS the ecosystem. Every stage of the worms development is a part of it, from Sandtrout which live and trap water that then create the Spice in Blooms that are then fed upon by Sandworms, of which any surviving Bloom then develops into Sandworms, who when they die, then decay into Sandtrout.

The Mankind introduced Earth-based ecosystem is a rival it fights that eventually destroys most of the Sandworms, which is why the Fremen in Dune Messiah or Children of Dune are shown dealing with an infestation of Sandtrout that attacked a canal of water trying to encapsulate the water, effectively maintaining the desert climate. By the time of God Emperor most of the planet is terraformed into an Earth-like world with only Leto's desert remaining with the surviving worms and himself.

That I'll add ties into the sociological impact of this that is the thing I like in Dune and other works - the Fremen get to imagine their dream of a lust Arrakis, and as a result they as a people stagnate and become a joke of themselves, reduced to hawking souvenirs to tourists because they didn't realize that the planet made their people, and by destroying the desert world they destroyed themselves.

In my opinion - both Star Wars and Dune treated science the same and took a very story-prime, fantasy approach to sci-fi. I love Dune, so don't think I am knocking it or anything.

They're similar, but the key is they have things backward.

Take the Star Destroyer and why it's wedge shaped. It was made that way because it looked cool and it was only later that reasons were scraped together to explain why it was, which resulted in the "designed to concentrate all fire forward" excuse that isn't even a good reason for building a warship that way.

Dune instead may have developed in that way, but much of it was focused on the consequences of things being a certain way and much of the appeal began with "What would society look like if Mankind had no AI, but nonetheless possessed
FTL space travel and had tens of thousands of years to spread across the galaxy?

It is what separates Tolkien too from many other fantasy authors in that he looked with a historians mindset towards writing his world that left both room to work with an rules to follow. That shows in such rules as Elvish names being unique, then realizing he had to Elves with the same name, but instead chose to expand his world by mulling over the implications and settling on introducing reincarnation to his world rather than arbitrarily renaming the one Elf.

BTW, this is why the prequel Dune books are so terrible, as they work to shoehorn shit in retroactively and it ruins the vague, historical vibe Herbert had. Like the Harkonen no-ship in Heretics that was brushed off as the creation of a later Harkonnen left to spiral into degeneracy under Leto's rule showing the House went out in a whimper. Instead, one of the prequels has de Vries and the Baron be the inventors of the no-ship and they did so to create that ship for reasons that are tenuous at best, because one of the two authors wanted to tie that no-ship into the prequels for the very reason why prequels are typical so bad (everything becomes connected, nothing lays outside the focus of a work of fiction to allow it a sense of being a part of a wider world).

It is fantasy because it's full of derpy shit (genetic memory, prescience, etc.) and dubious, usually nebulous technologies (and also technological restrictions) transparently serving entrenchment of fantasy tropes.

Take shields, for example. If Dune was sci-fi, the interaction of shields and lasguns wouldn't lead to near elimination of ranged combat. Rather it would be engineered around and ruthlessly exploited in a way that should be immediately obvious to anyone with IQ greater than room temperature (and that's in Celcius) - using small single shot lasers as warheads/mines and quickly nuking shields along with their users into oblivion of complete obsolescence.

"Muh ecology!" doesn't make Dune any more of a sci-fi series than well researched swordplay would turn a fantasy novel also featuring magic and dragons into a historical one.

But it doesn't because such things developed around a society already dominated by House Corrino, the Landsrad and the Jihad - They wanted to limit warfare just as much as scientific develop because of the human cost and the threat to their mutual powerbase ala "the Pope banned crossbows". Hence Kanly and War of Assassins, hence why the use of old fashion artillery by the Harkonnens is part of the dangerous ploy they and the Emperor are using to defeat the Atreides.Because if became known they built and deployed those weapons to gain an unfair advantage it would add to the deadly scandal of the Emperor working with one House to bring the other down that would unite the rest of the Landsrad against the Emperor. It's for that reason that they are immediate scrapped and forgotten as part of the cover up to make it seem like House Harkonnen simply ambushed the Atreides on Arrakis and got lucky through conventional means in a typical War of Assassins.

And it's for that reason that warfare changes when the Imperium collapses with Leto's death. The ending of Heretics of Dune revolves around the defending side doing exactly what you described, laying out a minefield of floating glowglobes armed with shields that the defenders shoot with lasguns as the enemy advances.

This is an issue that is sadly ignored too much by Sci-Fi in that writers don't fully realize the consequences of tech on society because they're more interested in the tech than the impact it has on people. Oddly in a way, it's the reverse of a Star Wars situation where the science is ignored to fit the societies shown.

Edit: wasn't the idea of genetic memory in scientific circulation when Dune was written? Honestly don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.

It's an interesting take on psychology from a Sci-Fi perspective, that many mental health conditions are the result of it, Abomination and the the like are what we'd call today Schizophrenia while the connection between the two isn't made or pointed out by Herbert because we are so far in the past to those of Dune's time that our ideas around mental health are long forgotten.

It's also neat to think too that the Kwisatz Haderach may have developed naturally in the past, but the poor person became dominated by other personalities. That or how many nature failures close, but not close enough have happened.

It's one that is way off, but it has a kernel of something in that the human mind is not just consciousness driving a vehicle around but multiple aspects of a mind working and conflicting with one another with consciousness stuck in the middle, just as Alia is with all the personalities of her ancestors vying for dominance until she surrenders to the Baron's.

The psychological aspect of the human condition stands out all the more in Dune because it's also such a neglected part of Sci-Fi.

You know what?
I don't care.

SW should have had decency to keel over and die after the third movie (which was still ok, but already stunk in a few places - and that's accounting for it being a popcorn space fantasy adventure flick, lowering the expectations quite a bit) as far as non-interactive media are concerned, and after exhausting the material and potential outlined in the movies when it comes to interactive ones (including odd few remakes and revisionist/ironic stuff).

It has definitely never justified an army of rentawriters churning out piles of glorified fanfics. :obviously:

It couldn't have even if Lucas wanted to because of Skywalker Ranch. He turned more towards sales of toys and shit during Empire to get that funded and then went overboard with it with Last Jedi when his wife got sick of him being wrapped up in the Ranch and left him. He sold out to get that made pushing merchandise only to realize the Ranch was a failure, but that left the toys and crap stuck in his mind.

There was one thread on here a while ago about how fantasy was inherently conservative/reactionary, which was kind of an epiphany for me. Fantasy is usually about returning to or restoring some past pure, superior state, whereas sci-fi is usually more progressive and about moving into a different, better future. The best sci-fi makes as few assumptions as possible and tries to extrapolate realistic scenarios from it's few "magic" technologies. Like how Mass Effect was all based around one impossible thing (element zero) and tried to stick to that. The problem is it's hard to fit stuff like fireballs and healing spells into a framework like that. With fantasy you have an easier time setting up diverse gameplay and characters, it can all be waved away with "a wizard did it."

It isn't a progressive/reactionary dichotomy, it's that both deal with different things. One being the possible and the other being with what has come before. It's for that reason that they are the two extremes of speculative fiction.

The foundation of Tolkien writing his Legendarium was his realization that the English had no national story of their own. Beowulf was the closest and that came from the Danes and Swedes.

It is ultimately what fantasy and folklore are about, and why something like the Western, has very little to do with the material realities of life in 19th Century North America, but is the distilled spirit and outlook of America on its ancestors that encapsulates things about their people more than anything else does.

(2) Planetary romance is basically just fantasy only elves are called something alien and orcs are called something alien and magic is less fun. There is hardly any meaningful distinction to be drawn between Planet of Adventure (Vance) or John Carter of Mars (Burroughs) and Conan or other pulpy S&S. I like planetary romance to read, but I'm not really sure why you would distinguish between them. Dark Sun strikes me as being as much a "planetary romance" as a fantasy setting (reduced magic, thrikreen, renaming fantasy classes, alien landscape, etc.).

This ignores the sociological and cultural aspects of Sci-Fi that are misunderstood. Most fantasy and sci-fi races are interchangeable because they represent the same things - different aspects of Mankind and human nature pulled out, hyperfocused and exaggerated to reflect upon ourselves.

It's why Roddenberry always insisted that the audience could always see a human face in his aliens, because humanity was his focus (and even when they were hidden, that was to highlight his point, like the rock alien episode and it not being a monster).

The thing is fantasy has no problem with this, it's only the pretenses of Sci-Fi that can result in it being mixed up, and this is coming from someone who feels that too much Sci-Fi focus' on this aspect and ignores speculating on how humans would react and deal with aliens that are literally alien.

Lem stands out because of this, but there's room in between him typical alien races to explore, such as going over what logic and reason actually are and how they could differ widely in aliens and come off as irrational even if their base motivations are understood (which is where Lem departs from this thread).

Actually, Star Trek Deep Space 9 is space opera. A fixed location (more or less), an ongoing mythology and an evolving epic story arc that encompasses multiple seasons.

DS9 has its roots in Westerns. Star Trek itself has roots in it, and no surprise, Roddenberry wrote Have Gun Will Travel episodes before he started developed TOS. That and the Age of Sail vibes along with the thinly veiled races being human ethnic groups shows how much Star Trek was built upon an archetype of 19th Century sailors on a US Navy warship sailing around the world running into Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Turks, etc.

DS9 is Dodge City with different groups of Indians, foreigners and immigrants passing through. The only difference is that Westerns focus more on cultural differences without trying to separate them from their humanity due to modern sensitives to race (such as the differences in honour and decency between whites and Indians, having Chinese go on blood feuds over a cowboy cutting off their pony tail, how differently hillbillys and other strictly speaking whites like immigrants are from mainline Americans).


Because that isn't all that Science Fiction is about, nor is Speculative Fiction as a whole.

It's very neat he does that and how he can reflect upon things, but that doesn't mean it's the end all be all of Sci-Fi.

And like so many things today, I feel like this is coming down more towards differences in left brain/right brain thinking and perspectives that come from them.

I really have some beef with magic that allows one to screw conservation laws.
It's really hard to build any sort of workable setting without conservation laws.

The issue with magic is the issue with many writers not being able to establish and follow rules they set up in their worlds that also includes Sci-Fi. This is again where Dune and Tolkien stand out and where Star Trek sabotaged itself with technobabble.

IMO, it comes down to a base human problem, that we love to act and explain and it's very hard to keep something really vague and unknown to the writer without spilling it onto the pages. Worse is when it passes out of the creators hands and sucessors are desperate to explain these things.

We love mystery, we love to solve mysteries, but we hate when a mystery is solved.

In practice you can pick up a random SF book and you'll have no idea what the setting or plot will be beforehand.
Pick up a random Fantasy book, and if you guess that it takes places in some alternate medieval world and that there is a war going on, there's a 99% chance you will be right.

The problem comes from so many in fantasy seeing the great and drastic take Tolkien made to fantasy in his work, and instead of being inspired to make their own different takes on it, just took his as the archetype to ape.

The sad fact is, by doing so I think they've completely missed what fantasy is about, and that is to reimagine the past and the essence of things in a way way to bring a new perspective to it, which in Tolkien's case is Christianity and Western civilization. People either dilute that essence, if outright ignore it to put out their own imitation, or they hate it and seek to thumb their nose at it, in the end always resolving around what he built.
 
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DraQ

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You arn't a lesbian if your entire species has one gender lol. I have no objections to sexuality in games; its our nature, it's natural/wholesome, and we should be proud of it. So I'm all for pornographic concepts if they arn't too immersion-breaking, fuck the prudes. The Drell were designed to appeal to women if I remember right. Good on them for not adhering to some quaint fear of sex when the industry quite clearly have no taboos on violence, surely an example of weird priorities.
My objections are not to sex, regardless of species and genders involved (and I can definitely acknowledge the hypocrisy of cheerfully accepting extreme violence but getting freaked out by sex).

My objections are to including a species of (ridiculously human, no less!) aliens whose entire biology and surrounding lore is massive, deeply implausible (to the point of being deeply insulting to anyone with any sort of understanding of biology) contrivance serving singular purpose of banging and getting banged by everything that moves in the galaxy.
:decline:

It's one thing to have rubber forehead aliens because you're making a TV flick on a tight budget.
It's another, but still borderline excusable one if you have them as a nod to those TV flicks.
But once your special effects failure (doesn't matter if unintended or part of intentional stylistic suck) becomes an actual plot point and the plot involved is but a thinly veiled excuse for space porn, then you can and should get called out for it - you brought it up, now fucking suffer.

The bottom line is:
Have your interspecies space sex if you really must - it's your story and I'm honestly all out of fucks to give - but if done with any sort of intellectual honesty it's inevitably going to get really weird. Not even just this weird, because your alien is not even going to be vaguely humanoid, but this is actually good starting point in realizing how fucking weird it would get. Keyword being "starting point".

Really, just to hammer it in:
Realistically the best you might reasonably hope for is something between zoophilia and modern art, minus most of the stigma involved (due to being a matter between two or more consenting sophonts - assuming they have similar standards and value of consent, of course, and that none of the species involved has things like nonsapient sex(es) - and also due to - hopefully - sharing some standards of hygiene or good will to bend them for the other side's comfort*).

For this very reason banging aliens is also unlikely to become a mainstream pastime, although exact level of acceptance will depend on society's permissiveness and the exact kind of weird involved.

In short, you might just about get away with it as an author if you're really good or really respected (or at least really fucking audacious), but it might still be better if you just reconsider.

Stigma related to modern art is there to stay, obviously.
:troll:
 
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DraQ

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And there is something preventing you from imagining that there is an unknown field of energy that we are currently incapable of detecting that "mages" tap into when they cast their spells? A field of energy whose conversion equation we do not yet have and might be something orders of magnitude larger than e=mc^2? A field of energy that might be the source of, say, zero-point energy or the solution for the missing mass of the universe?

None of these hypotheticals violate the premise that "mages can make matter and energy at will" in that someone of a medieval mindset would not know field interaction to begin with.

Is magic compelling? About as much as very advanced technology, according to Arthur C Clarke. It is not the magic that is compelling. It is the fact that it creates an effect that we "know" is "impossible". Humans have always dreamt of the impossible and wanting it to be available to them. It is part of the social display that basically states "Look at me! Look at me! I am speh-shual! Fall in love with me, notice me, worship me! I am speh-shual!!" In many ways, wanting to be the big damned hero, a mage, a prophet of God, is really no different to hacking your dick off and growing boobs. Both are cries for attention. The difference is that those who want to be a mage tend to have the self-control to not be too obvious about it. The dick hackers have all the subtlety of a thermonuclear device.
You've got it the wrong way around.

The art of creating good setting and good story is largely about finding yourself a set of interesting limitations you won't violate and that won't degenerate into self-contradictory mess.

It's not about desperately seeking a way to weasel your way around some limitation - you're an author, you can always do that. It's about finding some rock-solid limitations you are willing to honour, that will serve as building blocks of your story or setting.

Physics and especially recurring patterns in physics are always an attractive pick, as they are pretty much as rock-solid as it gets, not needlessly specific, and not constrained by IP laws.
 
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