The Witcher CDPR and Bioware make identical games.

[rusty_shackleford]

Anyway, I thought it's blindingly obvious to everyone, since day one after Witcher 1's release, that CDPR makes the exact kind of games BW would be making if BW didn't suck.

This. But also, I don't think CDPR is the only contender to the Bioware Throne.

IMO Bioware provided a reliable answer to the age old corporate question of "how can we turn this niche nerd shit they call 'RPGs' into something profitable the the average consumer won't ignore completely while shopping for the latest mole-popper?" by creating the "Bioware formula" of merely cosmetic choices, highschooler NPCs, power fantasy gameplay etc. This formula works and anyone with a functional brain can quickly realize that even if Bioware themselves have stopped delivering decent products based on the formula they themselves came up with, other companies could step in and do their job for them, essentially outbiowaring Bioware.

When I say "Bioware formula" I'm refering to the formula they adhered during their BG/KOTOR years, the formula that made them big and rich. "pandering to degenerates" is not part of the formula, because including faggotry in their games did not make them richer. The virtue signaling was merely a demonstration of hubris ("we're the Coca Cola of RPGS and you're gonna buy our shit anyway, so suck it neckbeards!!!") rather than an "improvement" on the formula.

So my point is that the Bioware Formula remains 100% viable and potentially profitable in 2018, even if Bioware itself decided to abandon its throne and become a tranny fanfic relationship simulator instead. HOWEVER we're never going to get "ONE Bioware to rule them" all ever again, because the market is now much bigger than what it was when BG2 was released. So every contender to the Bioware throne will specialize into handful of aspects of the BW formula, rather than trying to copy everything.

D:OS2 is irrefutable proof that Larian is gunning for that Throne and Obsidian has been trying to be "Bioware-but-more-grown-up" since its inception.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure most of RPG Codex might dislike modern bioware games, but is NOT AT ALL hostile to the "Bioware Formula" in general.

I wish Bioware pandered to degenerates, I'd actually buy their games if they pandered to me.

 

[Roguey]

So my point is that the Bioware Formula remains 100% viable and potentially profitable in 2018, even if Bioware itself decided to abandon its throne and become a tranny fanfic relationship simulator instead. HOWEVER we're never going to get "ONE Bioware to rule them" all ever again, because the market is now much bigger than what it was when BG2 was released. So every contender to the Bioware throne will specialize into handful of aspects of the BW formula, rather than trying to copy everything.

Depends on the budget and the expectations. Eventually they stopped growing, and stagnation might as well be death to a publicly traded company.

 

[Roqua]

And for the record, I'm pretty sure most of RPG Codex might dislike modern bioware games, but is NOT AT ALL hostile to the "Bioware Formula" in general.

If this formula leads to more console games with extremely lite rpg elements aimed at retards and children, I for one am hostile to it.

 

[Eyestabber]

You seem to have a strong opinion on this and I'd appreciate if you attempted to codify the formula to an extent, maybe other Codexers will step in and fill the gaps

I will try, but as a wise poster once said:

You may say RPGs have "matured" in mid-90s. I would not dispute that, in so far as being "mature" means being an annoying bore and death of youthful creativity. Fact is, for the past 20 years game design is no longer a field of joyful spontaneity, it's a deeply researched scientific field where everyone does the same One True Proved Thing and anything outside the approved Gender Game Design Studies course is considered an atavism we're better off having outlived it. In short, everybody in the field is a fucking Sawyer. I am not lamenting the lack of innovashun or artfaggotry or something - what I mean is both players and developers who were late (past 95 or so) to the party have very rigid stereotypes over how things are supposed to be done, and anything that doesn't fit their trope vision of a Proper Game Design is automatically wrong.

I picked this quote because it illustrates an important point: even if we can all agree Bioware spearheaded a change in the cRPG genre during the early 00's, the mid nighties were already a big departure from the "Golden Age" of cRPGs. Meaning Bioware didn't single handedly change the entire genre, but rather pushed it into a specific, commercially successful, direction. Judging the strength of this push is REALLY hard for people with no memory of the landscape before Bioware was even founded.

As a 30 y/o dude who got into cRPGs with Baldur's Gate (and later Fallout), it's a bit of a daunting task for me to specifically define "the Bioware formula" because I may not perceive the contrast as well as older members who were into the hobby even before Fallout. What I might call "Bioware formula" others might point and say "no, this is just mid-90s standard practice". I do feel, however, like I can comment on how Bioware took a step further from its contemporaries that resulted in "pleb Bioware" becoming rich while "prestigious Troika" went under. IMHO the most important aspects of the formula are:

- Lots of choices with little consequences: the savvy designers at Bioware noticed that "kids these days" love to have freduuums, but hate the consequences of making bad choices with said freedoms. How does that translate into RPGs? Ask lots and lots of questions to the player while making sure he is not going to miss anything or be punished in any way. Bioware mastered the art of working for a really incompetent boss. Always ask for his input, but make sure your questions are phrased in a way that won't ever result in redoing all the work. Take Kotor for instance. You might become the new Dark Lord of the Sith OR you might be The Awesome Jedi Who Saved The Galaxy Forever, depending on your choices. But you still visit the same place, fight the same enemies and the same final boss. Only a couple of voice tracks and cutscenes had to be redone. Now try to estimate how much time and money were saved in development because of that decision. The "Biowarean Choice" was a breakthrough that allowed their execs to please an entire generation of kids who "love" freeedom (except not really) while saving some SERIOUS shekels in the process.

Another thing: psychology has shown (I won't bother debating this point, if you don't agree, fine) that people get MUCH sadder with what's taken from them as opposed to happiness they feel over gaining something. In RPG terms, that means real C&C with mutually exclusive choices is a net negative for most people. AoD implemented real choices that result in a vastly different, branching storyline. Sounds great in theory, but in reality that means you can't be in all factions at once. The average player doesn't feel happy about the fact that "choosing X means I get to see Y cool thingie", nope. The average player immediately goes "WHY CAN'T I JOIN THE THIEVES GUILD AFTER BURNING THEIR GUILDHOUSE TO THE GROUND, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". While some people might enjoy this, the majority don't. That might be news for you, but it's definitely not news for Bioware. Their games let you choose which planet you visit first, but don't worry, all the quests will be there waiting for you and no choice you make will ever lead to a feeling of lost opportunity.

- Blatant pandering via NPCs: Npcs are a major aspect of the Bioware Formula and their interaction with the PC is very important for delivering the "emoshunal experience" fans came to expect from BW games. Now, I don't know why these archetypes worked so incredibly well, I just know for sure they did. I'm guessing some really high level voodoo psychology was at play when they decided that every single game would have:

- A little sister/brother NPC that is a bit of a scoundrel, but is actually very caring and well meaning. Imoen -> Mission Val -> Joker -> Oghren
- A whiny male character that constantly bitches and moans whenever you say "time to die, bugface!", trying to push you towards the Light Side in the most passive aggressive manner possible. Khalid -> Carth Onasi -> Kaidan Alenko/Jacob (because even if you kill Alenko, can't have a BW game without a beta male nagging you) -> Alistair
- A REALLY bossy female character that thinks she is the one in charge BUT if you put up with her shit long enough she rewards you with some pussy. Jaheira -> Bastila -> Miranda Lawson -> Morrigan
- A big brother NPC who is a badass, gives zero fucks and (for some unfathomable reason) DOES NOT bully you after school. Minsc -> Canderous -> Garrus -> Sten
- (Minor, not featured in every game) Really sweet girl who was a victim of circumstance, misjudged by society but finds in the PC the loving, caring and understanding protector she so desperately needs. Viconia/Aerie -> Chief Williams/Tali -> Lelianna
- (Minor) Father figure. Gorion -> Captain Anderson -> Duncan/Wynn
- Le funneh edgy emo evil NPC companion: Edwin -> HK47 -> Mordin Solus -> Morrigan (2 for one, saving up on the VA budget)

I probably missed some, but the point stands: every BW game features these archetypes AND their presence allows for fantasy versions of really highschool-tier interactions in their games. BW games will always let you bail your little brother/sister out of trouble (rescue Imoen, Mission comes to Revan in tears begging for help in rescuing her friend etc), help your bitchtits friend in his quest to (maybe) become less of a bitch (convince Alistar to become King/convince Carth not everyone is like Admiral Karath), help your future GF deal with her family issues (or literal daddy issues in Miranda's case) and so on. All these interactions are nothing but teenager drama shit dressed up in a high fantasy setting. Now, compare that to the kind of interactions TNO has with the world of PS:T or what the VD has with the world of Fallout. It's not the same thing, is it?

- The world actually DOES revolve around the player: Nobody enjoys playing a supporting character that is just there to help someone else fulfill his destiny. Even the unwashed masses criticized Oblivion for the fact that le-chosen-one is actually Martim. You're just his bitchboy/bodyguard. Since nu-Bethesda loves money, they DID learn their lesson and made it sure that on their next game the player is the fucking Dragonborn-Chosen-One who saves the entire fucking universe while everyone else is a bitch, one quicksave away from being murdered for teh lulz. In other words: they realized The Bioware formula was superior to their own, and just straight up copied a portion of it, which resulted in EVEN MORE money.

There is obviously nothing wrong with making the player the protagonist of his own story, but the BW formula demands that the player becomes directly responsible for drastically shaping the world without any form of reasonable limitation to his awesome power. From the very start it's made clear that the PC is special and meant for great things. Modest ambitions like what you see in Expeditions Vikings (turn the table on a more powerful noble and establish my clan as one of the big boys) are COMPLETELY off the table. You have to kill an ancient demon that OH SO FUCKING COINCIDENCE!!111 can only be killed by you and like 2 other guys. But one was jumping on a Dragon's back and died, and asking your friend alistair to kill himself is a REALLY socially awkward situation we best avoid. Alternatively, you need to stop the motherfucking Dark Lord of the Sith from ruling the Galaxy and destroying the Jedi forever. He is also your former apprentice, btw. Because you're so awesome you were ALREADY shaping the world of the game even before you started playing it!!!

When people use the term "power fantasy" they usually refer to the brain dead combat (next point), but this point is ALSO about power. Long before Obama started campaigning, Bioware already knew their customers wanted the power to CHANGE and said power was given to them. Even if, in the end, it doesn't actually change much other than a cutscene here and there. But, like, whatever ALL HAIL LORD REVAN!!!!!!!! xD xD XD

- The player doesn't fail. Only YOU fail for letting him fail: Even if BG2 had (arguably) a modicum of challenge, despite houserulling AD&D to make it less punishing, every single BW game after that had zero fucking challenge. Combat is balanced around a mentally retarded player with absolutely no idea of WTF he is doing (in other words, the average game journo), which is why anyone who has at least a CLUE as to what he is doing ends up breezing though every game without ever having to change tactics/reconsider their decisions. Sawyerism took this a little further by desiging an entire fucking new system where all your build choices only make you 5-20% more/less effective, thus making character progression choices merely cosmetic (I wrote about this on some other thread, too tired to look it up). In early BW games your build actually does matter, but everything is balanced around making sure the game is always beatable, no matter how hard you fuck things up. "Fail State/Fucked up campaign" is a cardinal sin against the BW formula (and against making money with gaymes in general), which is why later games made respec a staple. Because...what if some mouthbreather fails to realize "Two Handed, Sword & Shield, Bow and Dual Wielding" are actually * gasp * mutually exclusive perk trees and investing a point in each one every level isn't exactly optimal? What then!? Can this awesome person be DENIED of his god given right to keep winning until the final boss lies dead at his/her/its feet? OF COURSE NOT! So respecs are added just to be sure.

Boy, I still remember that patch that nerfed the tower Ogre in DA:O because retards couldn't beat him on normal difficulty.

- No blanks to be filled/no ambiguity: the characters and the plot of a BW game is very straightforward, meticulously explained and VERY "in your face". Some things might make ZERO sense, but you'll never be able to claim that the game never bothered EXPLAINING them to you. It's all very simple: your character is awesome and the people who oppose him are assholes who want to fuck shit up because HUE HUE HUE. Nothing is left up for debate. Your enemies will NEVER see something that you don't (unless it's made it obvious from the beginning, and you'll have a chance to ally with them -> The Architect) or have a justifiable reason for opposing you (unless you choose to go evil, in which case they die for teh lulz). Every plot related question can always be answered with "because PC is awesome" and "because villain is an asshole". Irenicus never got over his ex, Malak is a power-hungry twat, Yoshimo betrays you because Irenicus had his daughter hostage, Loghain wanted to usurp the throne and so on. There is never a real dilemma other than "should I save these people or kill them for teh lulz?"

I absolutely loved how Blackguards has you

Spoiler

chasing after a "villain" that turns out to be 100% on the right (Lysander) while your cunt of a "friend" is manipulating you into murdering your REAL best friend. Shame the game is made by Germans, which means you have no option to immediately IMPALE that bitch the moment your find out the truth because wahmen can do no wrong in the mind of the average eurocuck.

. Absolutely no such thing will ever be featured in a BW game because it makes the player doubt the awesomeness of his character and his group while also doubting the assholeness of his enemies. Featuring grey areas and dilemas also doesn't sit well with a generation who think everyone who disagrees with their own personal brand of "Perfect World Ideology" is literally Hitler.

Anyway, that's enough for today, I'm going to bed. Hope someone else chimes in.

 

[sullynathan]

eh, sounds like just about every rpg i've played

 

[Jacob]

I had "game design studies" as an elective class back in uni. Learned nothing there and should've picked something more useful instead, like web design.

 

[Serus]

TW3 - Walk around, watch a visually engaging cutscene where expressive characters move about and interact with scenery while spouting quality dialogue through consistently good voice acting in a quest that wouldn't look out of place in a Sapkowski short story...

Andromeda - Walk around, watch a static scene where vacant-eyed NPCs stand rooted to the spot spouting generic lines in voices that run the lottery of stupid. That's if you're lucky and they didn't just put the quest on a terminal or something.

Yeah, whatever adjectives you may add, add them but you're proving my point - CDPR is bioware that doesn't suck.

the high amount of polish can be more readily explained by their priorities rather than their bank account

More like - In Poland programmer works 60 hours a week in eternal crunch time for ~$20-30k a year while in Canada or wherever Bioware is located nowadays cleaner wants more for 36 hours week. By the way average lifetime of CDPR employee is 9 months.

Average CDPR emplpoyee then?
Sorry couldn't stop myself.

Also, good post by Eyestabber.

 

[DexRiwus]

Games of the same genre have similar elements, thus they all are the same game.

Can't beat sound arguments this lad lays out.

 

[a Goat]

Games of the same type within the same genre, targeting the same demographic are in their essence the same*

 

[DexRiwus]

Games of the same type within the same genre, targeting the same demographic are in their essence the same*

So... Games of the same genre have similar elements, thus they all are the same game?

Can't beat sound arguments this lad lays out.

 

[Theldaran]

Games of the same type within the same genre, targeting the same demographic are in their essence the same*

Didn't Twitcher 3 sell more than DA:I and Andromeda?

Also, comparing Twitcher 3 with Andromeda is kinda insulting...

 

[a Goat]

There are basically no similarities between Might and Magic(for sake of argument - World of Xeen) and these games aside from numbers going up.

There are several types of games that are labelled "RPG" and bioware and CDPR products fill pretty much the same niche.

 

[a Goat]

Didn't Twitcher 3 sell more than DA:I and Andromeda?

Also, comparing Twitcher 3 with Andromeda is kinda insulting...

Tell me how is it relevant to my argument

 

[DexRiwus]

There are basically no similarities between Might and Magic(for sake of argument - World of Xeen) and these games aside from numbers going up.

There are several types of games that are labelled "RPG" and bioware and CDPR products fill pretty much the same niche.

So... Games of the same subgenre have similar elements, thus they all are the same game?

 

[a Goat]

Is strawman made from iron bars and filled with cloth still strawman?

 

[DexRiwus]

Is strawman made from iron bars and filled with cloth still strawman?

Both come from the same logical fallacy and have similar elements, thus they are the same thing.

Your own logic, lad.

 

[a Goat]

Dude, no two games are exactly identical. I know it's shocking discovery for you.

 

[DexRiwus]

Dude, no two games are exactly identical. I know it's shocking discovery for you.

So... Games of the same subgenre have similar elements, thus they all are almost the same game?

Move chess pieces wherever you want, it is still the same dumb shit, lad.

 

[a Goat]

Your brain is that of a monkey. Go back to my OP and read it 5 times instead of doing the pretend stupid phase of jewish discussion methods.

 

[DexRiwus]

Your brain is that of a monkey. Go back to my OP and read it 5 times instead of doing the pretend stupid phase of jewish discussion methods.

Your OP and "Games of the same subgenre have similar elements, thus they all are almost the same game?" argument have similar elements, thus they both are the same thing.

 

[a Goat]

I have a beautiful golden star as an award for this bullshit exchange...

 

[DexRiwus]

I have a beautiful golden star as an award for this bullshit exchange...

You being wrong and getting a golden star have similar elements, if you think about it.

 

[Theldaran]

Didn't Twitcher 3 sell more than DA:I and Andromeda?

Also, comparing Twitcher 3 with Andromeda is kinda insulting...

Tell me how is it relevant to my argument

They might be the same general genre, but still one of those products is more well-received and successful. Thus, not 100% the same. It suggests there are more people willing to ride the CDPR bandwagon than Bioware's bandwagon. Because, who could stomach Andromeda's ugliness.

 

[a Goat]

ou're repeating the point of my OP

 

[evdk]

NPC's?

It's plural, not a possessive you double nigger. Stick that apostrophe up your ass.