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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

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I vaguely recalled that effective 60 is enough to craft highest grade 'nades, but then it doesn't make sense only that much is enough to make Mark V Grenades, so you're probably right. I'm just going to aim for at most Mark III 'nades maybe.
As for Throwing skill, it's fine. Even with 0 skill you can get decent %THC at medium range, I've done it before with my stealthy PSI after all and I don't reload much. But if you or someone have better suggestion so that I don't have to bother crafting 'nades while having 0 Throwing skill, that'd be great.
You can use metathermics as a grenade substitute, since pyrokinesis/cryokinetic orb basically function as grenades. They also have the advantage of not sharing cooldowns like grenades do so you can use both in one turn, and you never need to bother with buying materials to make them. They're way worse than HE grenades against robots, but you have EMP grenades and electrokinesis for that.
or, as I vaguely recall, the number I put into the character builder is required to craft Regeneration Vest armors?
Regen vest needs biology equal to 52% of what quality vest you're using, so you'll only need around 70 to make great quality ones. 70's also enough to make trances, so you may as well stop there unless you want super health hypos.
 

Black Angel

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Yeah, I didn't think it through. In fact, pyrokinesis might actually be much stronger than 'nades, not to mention the feats can make it even crazier... the only ones I need to worry about are those damn bots, and I can take care of them with EMP 'nades that required Electronics only. I think I'll only put enough points into Chemistry to make TNT, and that's it.
 

PlanHex

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I liked Power Management and Mental Subversion a lot on my psi playthrough, but your milage may vary.
The description of Mental Subversion is a bit misleading, since it doesn't just reduce it by a "small percentage", but a percentage based on the ability used. The ol' Locus of Control into Enrage or Breakdown seemed to take a lot off enemies as I recall.
Power Management means your shields get better since more power means more shielding. On the other hand, it might have a negative effect on the regenerative vest, since I'm not sure if more power translates into more healing on those, or if it will just increase the cost to recharge.
Not sure exactly what you'd switch out for it, but some of those metathermics feats seem a bit useless. I never used the cold-based ones at least.
I did like having Doctor though.
 
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Fenix

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By the way guys... I'm going to pick crit route, Psychosis and all that.
But I'm not actually ure it worth it.
I'll anyway pick it, but just curious - with Tranquility route you can have almost the same crit chance, right? And all good things Tranquility add.
Anyway, I'm mad psycho, crack rocks with a glance, who can stop me!
 

Black Angel

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I liked Power Management and Mental Subversion a lot on my psi playthrough, but your milage may vary.
The description of Mental Subversion is a bit misleading, since it doesn't just reduce it by a "small percentage", but a percentage based on the ability used. The ol' Locus of Control into Enrage or Breakdown seemed to take a lot off enemies as I recall.
Power Management means your shields get better since more power means more shielding. On the other hand, it might have a negative effect on the regenerative vest, since I'm not sure if more power translates into more healing on those, or if it will just increase the cost to recharge.
Not sure exactly what you'd switch out for it, but some of those metathermics feats seem a bit useless. I never used the cold-based ones at least.
I did like having Doctor though.
Oh, I never really know that about Mental Subversion. My stealthy PSI focused so much on Thought Control, but didn't take that feat because of the misleading description. However, this time around I want to spread the focus through all of the PSI schools. My very first playthrough was a jack-of-all-trades who've had a taste of the PSI schools, too, so I seen what the Metathermics feats did. Thermodynamicity basically allowed us to spam the Metathermics spells, coupled with Hypothermia you can reduce tanks to mere cheeses, and theoretically allows you to shatter Cryostasis-ed enemies easily (since Cryostasis was the only spell I haven't tried).
I might consider getting Power Management too, to augment my defenses, perhaps I'll drop Cerebral Trauma to substitute it. The sad thing about Doctor feat is that its applications is rather limited, I'd say. The only one time you can use it is to bandage Cliff and that's it. I can't remember any other cases where you can utilize it to keep NPCs alive, it could've been the thing to take *if* there are companions and you're taking them along. Also,
do you know if Doctor feat is useful during one of Oculus's quest where you play detective and finds out a man's brother's murderer?
Point is, if you're not planning to play goody-two shoes to save Cliff, then Fast Metabolism is the absolutely superior choice, especially for psykers.
By the way guys... I'm going to pick crit route, Psychosis and all that.
But I'm not actually ure it worth it.
I'll anyway pick it, but just curious - with Tranquility route you can have almost the same crit chance, right? And all good things Tranquility add.
Anyway, I'm mad psycho, crack rocks with a glance, who can stop me!
Theoretically, it should be worth it if you're going full CON with it. If you still plan to use this http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMDAwMIEAoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, then you might want to put one more point in CON so you can take Survival Instinct feat, which will work really well in conjunction with Psionic Mania.
And I'd say 15% crit chance that's always ready means you can actually go much crazier with your crits, Tranquility route simply means it wouldn't have that 15% extra chance all the time like Psychosis did. Either way, you as someone who've played stealthy sledgehammer before should really try this, because Psychosis-CON psykers were a thing..... before heavy armors nerf, or so I heard.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
After like 115 hours (the game is massive) I reached the elevator battle in the institute of tchort. I figure this is the endgame so I reloaded a save from before the tremors started to stock up on supplies and drop everything else that doesn't matter since I hear the deep caverns are difficult (putting it kindly since I heard lots of criticism as well). Also I need to finish the fishing quest.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
After like 115 hours (the game is massive) I reached the elevator battle in the institute of tchort. I figure this is the endgame so I reloaded a save from before the tremors started to stock up on supplies and drop everything else that doesn't matter since I hear the deep caverns are difficult (putting it kindly since I heard lots of criticism as well). Also I need to finish the fishing quest.
Get a pencil to write shit down, explore the areas that don't give you the little counter first, and try to move through the counter areas as quickly as you can while also being thorough in your search.
 

Fenix

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you might want to put one more point in CON so you can take Survival Instinct feat

Dude, it's Perception 8, not Con...

Psychosis-CON

Not my cup of tea, I prefer Percetion and delicious secrets.

The description of Mental Subversion is a bit misleading, since it doesn't just reduce it by a "small percentage", but a percentage based on the ability used. The ol' Locus of Control into Enrage or Breakdown seemed to take a lot off enemies as I recall.

Can you rephrase? Don't get it.
 

Black Angel

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Dude, it's Perception 8, not Con...
Well, shit, I failed my [Reading Comprehension] check....

Not my cup of tea, I prefer Percetion and delicious secrets.
Are you serious, though? This isn't going to be like your stealthy sledgehammer. No stealth, low movement points, low initiative, and practically zero defenses because of 3 AGI and 3 CON.... 'glass cannon' couldn't even begin to describe the build you're planning, especially if you want to go Psychosis route. AND HP penalty from taking the pill to activated your psionic potential most of all... go ahead if you think you can pull it off, though. I'm guessing you're confident enough considering you tackled stealthy sledgehammer build all by yourself.

The description of Mental Subversion is a bit misleading, since it doesn't just reduce it by a "small percentage", but a percentage based on the ability used. The ol' Locus of Control into Enrage or Breakdown seemed to take a lot off enemies as I recall.

Can you rephrase? Don't get it.
Mental Subversion feat described that using any offensive Though Control spell only reduce enemy's Resolve (which is kind of a defensive stat against Thought Control spells) by 'small percentage', when truth is using Locus of Control -> Enrage/Mental Breakdown as an AOE took a LOT of Resolve. At least, that's what I get from PlanHex's post.

epeli can you share how Mental Subversion actually work? Because in theory, a powerful Thought Control-oriented psykers can take any non-bot enemies so easily with their arsenal alone. The reason why I didn't took it because the 'small percentage' as described in the feat seemed like a waste because before you can stack Resolve reduction in any meaningful way, any encounters would already be wiped out.
 

Parabalus

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I liked Power Management and Mental Subversion a lot on my psi playthrough, but your milage may vary.
The description of Mental Subversion is a bit misleading, since it doesn't just reduce it by a "small percentage", but a percentage based on the ability used. The ol' Locus of Control into Enrage or Breakdown seemed to take a lot off enemies as I recall.
Power Management means your shields get better since more power means more shielding. On the other hand, it might have a negative effect on the regenerative vest, since I'm not sure if more power translates into more healing on those, or if it will just increase the cost to recharge.
Not sure exactly what you'd switch out for it, but some of those metathermics feats seem a bit useless. I never used the cold-based ones at least.
I did like having Doctor though.
Mental Subversion feat described that using any offensive Though Control spell only reduce enemy's Resolve (which is kind of a defensive stat against Thought Control spells) by 'small percentage', when truth is using Locus of Control -> Enrage/Mental Breakdown as an AOE took a LOT of Resolve. At least, that's what I get from PlanHex's post.

epeli can you share how Mental Subversion actually work? Because in theory, a powerful Thought Control-oriented psykers can take any non-bot enemies so easily with their arsenal alone. The reason why I didn't took it because the 'small percentage' as described in the feat seemed like a waste because before you can stack Resolve reduction in any meaningful way, any encounters would already be wiped out.

But does Mental Subversion even do anything if you have PSI maxed?

On my PSI chars I never had a TC psi resisted. I asked epeli whether it increases Neural Overload damage, but it seemingly doesn't, since with max PSI you have way more than their resolve. I dropped it in subsequent playthroughs.

I had a similar build one run, was great. Though the perception secrets all disappointed me, not much in any of them, maybe the one shop in RC, and with 8(+1) you'd need Snooping for some of them as well.

By the way guys... I'm going to pick crit route, Psychosis and all that.
But I'm not actually ure it worth it.
I'll anyway pick it, but just curious - with Tranquility route you can have almost the same crit chance, right? And all good things Tranquility add.
Anyway, I'm mad psycho, crack rocks with a glance, who can stop me!

I played through with both and Tranqulity made me feel neutered after the Psycho run. The guaranteed AoE crit is a game changer.
 

Black Angel

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But does Mental Subversion even do anything if you have PSI maxed?

On my PSI chars I never had a TC psi resisted. I asked epeli whether it increases Neural Overload damage, but it seemingly doesn't, since with max PSI you have way more than their resolve. I dropped it in subsequent playthroughs.
I don't know. PlanHex said its effect is greater than what the description made it out to be. I also didn't take it on my previous playthrough because the description doesn't really sell it for me. Although, I've had few occasions where my Enrage and Fear were resisted, but only when using Locus of Control, one or two guys managed to keep their heads cool, so theoretically Mental Subversion *might* worked in those situations.

Also, I'm not sure what were you disagreeing with me with my post above.....
 

Parabalus

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Rate my planned psyker build, pls, k thx

In case someone is wondering why I'm going 7 CON, it's because I've already played a stealthy PSI before, and that one doesn't even have Metathermics. This time, I kinda want to have a durable psyker wearing medium armors like vests and riot gears, and also heavy-based leather armors made from pig-skin and Ancient Rathound leathers etc etc. Looking at it, one of, if not the only weird part of this planned build, is the 4 DEX and I put it at that because I don't want to have penalty on Lockpicking. And yet, I only put that much point into Lockpicking because I'm thinking of not picking lock as much as hacking. Should I just drop Lockpicking completely, and also DEX, and put that one point in CON?

Edit: Also, the reason why I put 10 points into INT there is because I want to pass all the INT checks. Who knows, maybe I can fill in the blanks left by MediantSamuel in this thread

I'll be going something very similar for when Expedition comes out, like this.

Differences are:
  • Pyschosis instead of Tranq
  • 3 DEX, 9 INT for 9 CON - taking SI, will use food if needed for checks. Don't think there is anything for >11 INT anyway.
  • Psychostatic induction is pretty bad IMHO, even with bounces + imprint it's 20% at best, but stuff is dead after two PSI casts. Took Power management instead.
  • Force User over Cryogenic Induction - needed to make TPunch viable, +2 turns for force field vs 1 for freezes. Shatter might be better in dominating, on Hard stuff just died normally though
  • Fast metabolism over Doctor, it's a no brainer, but you mentioned that already
  • Instead of intimidate + Chemistry I'll put the points into new PSI discipline. Might revise that after I see the scaling
I'd drop Lockpicking if you aren't going to go higher on it tho, I should do it too but greed gets me every time. Issue is with low STR you can't access most vents without it.
But does Mental Subversion even do anything if you have PSI maxed?

On my PSI chars I never had a TC psi resisted. I asked epeli whether it increases Neural Overload damage, but it seemingly doesn't, since with max PSI you have way more than their resolve. I dropped it in subsequent playthroughs.
I don't know. PlanHex said its effect is greater than what the description made it out to be. I also didn't take it on my previous playthrough because the description doesn't really sell it for me. Although, I've had few occasions where my Enrage and Fear were resisted, but only when using Locus of Control, one or two guys managed to keep their heads cool, so theoretically Mental Subversion *might* worked in those situations.

Also, I'm not sure what were you disagreeing with me with my post above.....

But it doesn't work on the initial cast right? You have only 1 AoE TC spell, you can't apply the buff in an AoE anyway.

It was for consdering dropping Cerebral Trauma, that kinda makes no sense. It's one of the best/crucial PSI feats, for pure PSI at least.
 
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Black Angel

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But it doesn't work on the initial cast right? You have only 1 AoE TC spell, you can't apply the buff in an AoE anyway.
Eh, why would it not work on the initial cast? The description said, "Each offensive mind affecting psi ability you land on the target...", nothing indicate that you need to consecutively land a spell for it to work, just put one and it will work immediately.

And from where did you get that you can't apply the debuff in an AoE? Using Locus of Control, you can apply either fear, enrage, bilocation, or mental breakdown, etc etc so why wouldn't mental subversion, too? Also, apparently in the wiki they specified that, "...more powerful abilities causing heavier mental subversion." http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Subversion if only they put it in the game...

It was for consdering dropping Cerebral Trauma, that kinda makes no sense. It's one of the best/crucial PSI feats, for pure PSI at least.
Oh, that. I've already mentioned that in my previous playthrough, I played a stealthy PSI that's very Thought Control oriented. I have TC maxed, less points put into Psychokinesis, and literally 0 Metathermics. Most encounters I wiped out with a combo of Premeditation + Locus of Control + Mental Breakdown, cast Enrage on one enemy, Frighten on the other, and so on and so on. I faced bots encounter with a mix of Psychokinesis and EMP 'nades.
Hence, the reason I'm considering of dropping Cerebral Trauma next time is because I want to spread my usage of psi arsenal more, shifting my focus to ALSO use Metathermics this time around. But yeah, I guess I'll save this build until Expedition get released so we can take more feats, and then I don't have to drop Cerebral Trauma.
 

Parabalus

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But it doesn't work on the initial cast right? You have only 1 AoE TC spell, you can't apply the buff in an AoE anyway.
Eh, why would it not work on the initial cast? The description said, "Each offensive mind affecting psi ability you land on the target...", nothing indicate that you need to consecutively land a spell for it to work, just put one and it will work immediately.

And from where did you get that you can't apply the debuff in an AoE? Using Locus of Control, you can apply either fear, enrage, bilocation, or mental breakdown, etc etc so why wouldn't mental subversion, too? Also, apparently in the wiki they specified that, "...more powerful abilities causing heavier mental subversion." http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Subversion if only they put it in the game...

When you cast it, they get the debuff applied. The debuff reduces resolve by X. Doesn't make sense for the ability which applied the debuff to benefit from it, especially considering the wording, ie. you land it, then it reduces. Might be wrong though.

You can apply it in an AoE, but don't have another TC AoE to benefit from it.

There's also the issue of not having any real idea of how Resolve works. How many resists do you get with 300 TC anyway?

It was for consdering dropping Cerebral Trauma, that kinda makes no sense. It's one of the best/crucial PSI feats, for pure PSI at least.
Oh, that. I've already mentioned that in my previous playthrough, I played a stealthy PSI that's very Thought Control oriented. I have TC maxed, less points put into Psychokinesis, and literally 0 Metathermics. Most encounters I wiped out with a combo of Premeditation + Locus of Control + Mental Breakdown, cast Enrage on one enemy, Frighten on the other, and so on and so on. I faced bots encounter with a mix of Psychokinesis and EMP 'nades.
Hence, the reason I'm considering of dropping Cerebral Trauma next time is because I want to spread my usage of psi arsenal more, shifting my focus to ALSO use Metathermics this time around. But yeah, I guess I'll save this build until Expedition get released so we can take more feats, and then I don't have to drop Cerebral Trauma.

You could also drop TC completely and take the new one instead? I think TC is the worst one to get "partial use" out of. Super fun though.

I did TC+Meta, no psychokinesis, everything was smooth except robots (fuck Arke). Wouldn't recommend.
 

Black Angel

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When you cast it, they get the debuff applied. The debuff reduces resolve by X. Doesn't make sense for the ability which applied the debuff to benefit from it, especially considering the wording, ie. you land it, then it reduces. Might be wrong though.

You can apply it in an AoE, but don't have another TC AoE to benefit from it.

There's also the issue of not having any real idea of how Resolve works. How many resists do you get with 300 TC anyway?
Maybe, but do remember that there are different TC spells, even though only one you can use with LoC's AoE. Remember when I mentioned that I had several cases of my LoC's-buffed spell being resisted by an enemy or a couple of it? Mental Subversion might be a kind of a fail-safe for when that happens. Unless Styg or epeli denied it, we can assume Mental Subversion counts no matter if a spell is resisted or not; the point is that you 'land' the spell, that's it. So, for example, we cast an LoC-buffed Enrage to make a group fight with one another. But then, one guy or two resisted Enrage, but since you 'landed' Enrage upon them by way of LoC, and Enrage counts as a powerful ability that caused heavier mental subversion, then the next TC spell you cast upon them, like Fear or Mental Breakdown, will have higher chance of taking effect.

Similarly, even if you don't have another TC AoE to benefit greatly after having an entire group being mentally subverted in a single move, you can still have your next individual spell guaranteed to take effect, like if you cast Mental Breakdown AoE will guarantee that an individual Enrage will work on one specific enemy, instead of casting Enrage AoE that have lower chance to work on said enemy.

This is just all my theory, though, so yeah we really need to know how Resolve truly works. Gotta wait for epeli to give us the numbers.

You could also drop TC completely and take the new one instead? I think TC is the worst one to get "partial use" out of. Super fun though.
I did TC+Meta, no psychokinesis, everything was smooth except robots (fuck Arke). Wouldn't recommend.
Oh, I have no intention of using TC 'partially'. It's just that, IMO, Cerebral Trauma is a rather straightforward feat that increase the main TC bread-n'-butter spell, with an additional effect of burning target's psi reserve if they have any. Psi-burn is essential against Lunatics, Psi-Beetles, and Coil Spiders, but they're all enemies that can be burned and/or frozen through Metathermics, hence why Cerebral Trauma is the feat I'm considering dropping because I want to shift my usage of psi spells, on top of to augment my defense with Power Management.

But since you reminded me of Expedition, and how we can still do traditional leveling-up into veteran levels and, thus, take 3 extra feats, I'm considering putting this build on hold and see if I can take ALL of psi feats AND couple of other feats like Doctor/Fast Metabolism, Power Management and Neurology.
 

PlanHex

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Ah, sorry, I meant that lowering resolve made Neural Overload and such do more damage afterwards. Very effective against Tchort at least, and others with lots of resolve.
 

epeli

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epeli can you share how Mental Subversion actually work?

It makes your offensive thought control psi abilities also add a number of mental subversion debuff stacks, each stack reducing resolve by 1%.

I just looked up how many stacks each ability adds.
Neural Overload - 5
Frighten - 8
Bilocation - 10
Mental Breakdown - 10
Psi-cognitive Interruption - 10
Neurovisual Disruption - 10
Enrage - 15

There's also the issue of not having any real idea of how Resolve works. How many resists do you get with 300 TC anyway?

Just looked it up. Fundamentally, saving throws like resolve are 1 - attack skill / defense skill * 0.7 with the save chance being capped between max of 75% and min of 5%. So relative to defense skill, about 135% attack skill minimizes the save chance and 35% maximizes it. Different psi abilities do different things with this resolve factor. For example it directly limits the duration of some abilities, whereas neural overload uses it calculate its resolve damage resistance.

Mental subversion is not that useful with maxed will. It's slightly better for low thought control hybrid builds, but only slightly.

edit:
But it doesn't work on the initial cast right? You have only 1 AoE TC spell, you can't apply the buff in an AoE anyway.
Eh, why would it not work on the initial cast? The description said, "Each offensive mind affecting psi ability you land on the target...", nothing indicate that you need to consecutively land a spell for it to work, just put one and it will work immediately.

When you cast it, they get the debuff applied. The debuff reduces resolve by X. Doesn't make sense for the ability which applied the debuff to benefit from it, especially considering the wording, ie. you land it, then it reduces.

Mental Subversion is applied after normal effects of the psi ability, so it does nothing for the initial invocation.
 
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Fenix

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Are you serious, though? This isn't going to be like your stealthy sledgehammer. No stealth, low movement points, low initiative, and practically zero defenses because of 3 AGI and 3 CON.... 'glass cannon' couldn't even begin to describe the build you're planning, especially if you want to go Psychosis route. AND HP penalty from taking the pill to activated your psionic potential most of all... go ahead if you think you can pull it off, though. I'm guessing you're confident enough considering you tackled stealthy sledgehammer build all by yourself.

Actually I didn't have the patience, and already played it till GMS compound. Feels fine. Also, I already got some Intellect/Intimidation check there, quite curious...
you can be on neutral terms with those raiders if you scare them enough
 

Parabalus

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epeli can you share how Mental Subversion actually work?

It makes your offensive thought control psi abilities also add a number of mental subversion debuff stacks, each stack reducing resolve by 1%.

I just looked up how many stacks each ability adds.
Neural Overload - 5
Frighten - 8
Bilocation - 10
Mental Breakdown - 10
Psi-cognitive Interruption - 10
Neurovisual Disruption - 10
Enrage - 15

There's also the issue of not having any real idea of how Resolve works. How many resists do you get with 300 TC anyway?

Just looked it up. Fundamentally, saving throws like resolve are 1 - attack skill / defense skill * 0.7 with the save chance being capped between max of 75% and min of 5%. So relative to defense skill, about 135% attack skill minimizes the save chance and 35% maximizes it. Different psi abilities do different things with this resolve factor. For example it directly limits the duration of some abilities, whereas neural overload uses it calculate its resolve damage resistance.

Mental subversion is not that useful with maxed will. It's slightly better for low thought control hybrid builds, but only slightly.

edit:
But it doesn't work on the initial cast right? You have only 1 AoE TC spell, you can't apply the buff in an AoE anyway.
Eh, why would it not work on the initial cast? The description said, "Each offensive mind affecting psi ability you land on the target...", nothing indicate that you need to consecutively land a spell for it to work, just put one and it will work immediately.

When you cast it, they get the debuff applied. The debuff reduces resolve by X. Doesn't make sense for the ability which applied the debuff to benefit from it, especially considering the wording, ie. you land it, then it reduces.

Mental Subversion is applied after normal effects of the psi ability, so it does nothing for the initial invocation.

Great post, thanks a lot.

Can you show the defensive stats for some typical enemies? Do they go over 250 (on Dominating?)?

Mental Subversion seems to be conclusively garbage though.
 

epeli

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Messages
719
Can you show the defensive stats for some typical enemies? Do they go over 250 (on Dominating?)?

Mental Subversion seems to be conclusively garbage though.

Dunno. Resolve is based on level and will. Scanners might have around 250 on dominating. If you're playing pure psi and always maxing will, you'll probably overpower the resolve of roughly equal level enemies throughout the game. Few unique characters and mid-game lunatic encounters are potential exceptions. And who knows what we'll find in the Black Sea?

Mental Subversion is p. shitty feat to pick, yeah. Single-player games are usually asymmetric in the way that the player persists and other combatants die quickly, so effects that slowly build up and linger end up being more powerful when used against the player. Not that Underrail does much of that, either. IMO mental subversion would be a perfect mechanical and thematical fit for the endgame battles towards the boss, but for whatever reason scanners don't have it.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
Can I safely allow the Eye of Tchort to fall upon me while in the Tchortist base? I convinced them I'm one of them.
 

ciox

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Scanners tend to just drop you in one or two hits though, maybe heavy Psi users would have higher resolve but they also have reduced HP...so I still see them dropping dead after 2 overloads.
 

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