Monsters in fantasy settings

[Flink]

I'm a huge fan of giants myself. (or giant like things like mutants in Fallout.)

Fee-fie-foo-fum! and so on...

 

[Dark Elf]

If one thing should be a rule about monsters, it's that dragons should always kick your ass

Well, I don't really know about that... it's got a certain ring to it, defeating a dragon...

Of course, it should only be doable by highpowered character parties at the max of their potential with the meanest equipment and spells you could ever acquire and quite possibly some insane amounts of good old luck, but it should be doable and the treasure worthwhile... but it should never be easy. The NWN OC dragons kinda made me sick... man, they could be butchered in melee by a bard...

 

[Country_Gravy]

I think that dragons should be the ONLY monster in the entire game. It should start you out with killing baby dragons and then move up to really old grandma dragons and then you could kill big dragons that have super cool names that are in their prime. The main difference between all the dragons would be how old they are.

I would call it Dragon Age.

 

[Oyarsa]

A few thoughts, nothing definitive or comprehensive.

Dragons? One man, one arrow, one bird tired of the stink. Course an entire town went up in flames around him, but, hey, rebuidling's easy with a dragon horde.


Problem with monsters in stock fantasy settings is that they don't catch you off guard either on the emotional/visceral level or on the strategic/cognitive level. Play NetHack or and you know pretty much what to expect. Even Angband and variants just spoon up monsters that end up being variations on a theme. Graphics don't matter, the same holds true for most CRPGs, but hte names of critters have been changed to protect the guilty.

Tactics should count.

Tactics should not be the same from foe to foe. A skilled swordsman will approach giant, hungry vermin differently (though with the same skills) than another swordsman. What if some swordswingers subscribe to some code of honourable combat, while others do not?

All enemy types should be unknown the first time encountered by the PC, though some attributes can be guessed. Allow for some hints/rumours/knowledge to be avaiable to the player/PC. Not all should be accurate, though.

Avoid stupid variations - "Yeah its not a kobold, its a fire kobold so it can breathe fire before squeaking as you stick it with a sword."

Enemies should have motives and behaviors that distiguish them from other enemies both of same and different kinds. PC walking through the woods is set upon by wolves. If the wolves are hungry they pursue and attack to kill. If the wolves are protecting their young or their territory they may only pursue to drive off a perceived threat. Ambushes get set. Plots get hatched. Assassins get dispatched for revenge. Pleas for mercy are offered.

Particular enemies that survive an encounter, if given enough time, should have taken steps to prepare for subsequent encounters. Subdued that naughty fighter with a Hold Person spell so he could give the secret password? Next time you face off he's got a lovely new ring on his finger that protects him from the spell, or he's got some buddies who sneak around back and whack the offending spellcaster before (s)he can act. Yes, it would be a nightmare (highly impractical) to code each single possible foe, but multiple behavior sets could be created and randomly determined at the time of an encounter, especially if its a non-plot randenc.

In short, monsters, human and otherwise, should surprise and challenge the player the first time through and should do likewise to the PC every time through.

 

[Vival]

Personally I think that's down to the limitiations in A.I. programming. Gothic 2 has indeed got some neat monster A.I. but nothing that makes them stand out in your mind as "scary" or "impressive". No game has critters that for instance only attack when your torch goes out in their dank dungeon, that lure you towards an ambush or stalk your party for a long time before going in for the kill/steal.

Yeah but the "Gothic" devs are on the right way with more varied Monster A.I. . There are actually some stalking monsters in the game. I had two critters, instead of attacking me right away, follow me for about a minute and when i stopped to pick some flowers and dig through my inventory they used the time to slowly approach me from behind. When I then turned around, not expecting any monsters around, it was a pretty memorable suprise to see two monsters changing from stalking to bloodlusting rage mode.

 

[Stark]

Yeah but the "Gothic" devs are on the right way with more varied Monster A.I. . There are actually some stalking monsters in the game. I had two critters, instead of attacking me right away, follow me for about a minute and when i stopped to pick some flowers and dig through my inventory they used the time to slowly approach me from behind. When I then turned around, not expecting any monsters around, it was a pretty memorable suprise to see two monsters changing from stalking to bloodlusting rage mode.

ermm... did we even play the same game?

gothic has good monster AI, but dun think it's THAT good.

 

[Eclecticist]

Monsters are mandatory in fantasy settings. You think fantasy, you think orcs, dragons, goblins and treasure. Now only one of those four isn't a monster, and in some games, even that can be.

 

[Anonymous]

Mimics rock your face

 

[Stark]

Particular enemies that survive an encounter, if given enough time, should have taken steps to prepare for subsequent encounters. Subdued that naughty fighter with a Hold Person spell so he could give the secret password? Next time you face off he's got a lovely new ring on his finger that protects him from the spell, or he's got some buddies who sneak around back and whack the offending spellcaster before (s)he can act. Yes, it would be a nightmare (highly impractical) to code each single possible foe, but multiple behavior sets could be created and randomly determined at the time of an encounter, especially if its a non-plot randenc.

it sounds great in concept, but how often enemies get to escape in game? i mean, the frequency must be sufficiently high that it justifies the amnt of extra coding involved...

if it occurs rarely, then player may not even notice the change in behaviour, there goes the extra effort in coding in this type of behaviour.

but otherwise a pretty novel idea.

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

I quite liked the monsters in Avernum, the way they had patrols and stuff (so they wernt just standing in one place 24 hours a day) and the two big races of monsters had a pretty good history, community and all that.

Monsters dont constitute communites, they are infestations, which must be crushed.

Also I would kill for a fantasy game filled with completely original monsters. And not just huge lumbering orgelikes. If any of you are familiar with Exalted there are some damn interesting creatures wandering around there. Actually Exalted would make a good crpg except it would be so highly powered, it would make throne of bhaal would look like a kobold hunt.

 

[Psilon]

Doesn't Interplay supposedly have the Exalted license?

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

Fucking Interplay........ :evil:

 

[Rayt]

Also I would kill for a fantasy game filled with completely original monsters. And not just huge lumbering orgelikes. If any of you are familiar with Exalted there are some damn interesting creatures wandering around there. Actually Exalted would make a good crpg except it would be so highly powered, it would make throne of bhaal would look like a kobold hunt.

Planescape Torment, except for the thugs in the beginning, is crammed with odd monsters.

 

[Eclecticist]

They aren't particularly odd if you have any experience with the Planescape setting, and even then, the only odd thing about them is their sprites. They have the same generic A.I. seen again and again, i.e. kill run kill run kill.

 

[Rayt]

They aren't particularly odd if you have any experience with the Planescape setting, and even then, the only odd thing about them is their sprites. They have the same generic A.I. seen again and again, i.e. kill run kill run kill.

How many people had experience with the Planescape setting before PsT came out? A hundred? Come on, PsT was a fresh breath of air through the rpg market, one reason being the unique bestiary the Planescape setting offers. So the AI sucks. But that's in all games, even the new ones. It always disappoints and it always lets you bypass it or allows you to cheese around it. If you want an impressive AI you have to run your own campaign with your mates.

Besides the weird monsters, the 'end bosses' and important characters were incredibly awesome and felt unique. I haven't seen any game surpass that. Though maybe Shodan in System Shock 2 comes close.

 

[Eclecticist]

Marry me.

 

[Calis]

How many people had experience with the Planescape setting before PsT came out?

Uh, me?
That's the reason I got on the PS:T forums and made a fansite in the first place.

 

[Rosh]

How many people had experience with the Planescape setting before PsT came out? A hundred? Come on, PsT was a fresh breath of air through the rpg market, one reason being the unique bestiary the Planescape setting offers.

I have, especially when I gave a bit of help to someone who ran a Planescape MUD. Many people like the setting, and have done so for long before the game came out, as it different from the stupid munchkinfest twinkery that the "Fanservice Realms" kiddies enjoy.

So the AI sucks. But that's in all games, even the new ones.

That's because of the inability for BioWare programmers to develop technical basics in a competent way. Their pathfinding is notoriously scrotum-sucking as well.

It always disappoints and it always lets you bypass it or allows you to cheese around it. If you want an impressive AI you have to run your own campaign with your mates.

No, it's quite simple. Use a TB combat where the ability to run a devoted AI script could be feasable (and not have to chug along with the rest of the mess in most RT games), and then find someone who is competent in programming AI.

Besides the weird monsters, the 'end bosses' and important characters were incredibly awesome and felt unique. I haven't seen any game surpass that. Though maybe Shodan in System Shock 2 comes close.

Try browsing a lot through the listing at The Underdogs. Thank you.

 

[mr. lamat]

i wouldn't mind the goblins if they did more than wander around waiting for my sweet, cold justice. they should have villages, or at the least, warrens where they restock and resupply from. something akin to those monster generators in gauntlet but alot more fleshed out. given the choice to either deal with raiding parties and ambushes throughout my journey in one area or to confront them. give me ways to confront them... searching out the warren and letting the county sherrif know where it is. poisoning the water supply and waiting several day/night cycles before i go back and have a go at the remnants of said horde and their l3w7. maybe after i deal with that problem, some orcs or other generic monster decides to set up camp because there's less competition. they're harder and the sherrif doesn't want anything to do with them this time... give me a reason why they're there and a way to be rid of them for good.

the scariest 'monster' i've ever come across in rpgs was the golden saint from morrowind... something about those cold eyes... seriously creeped me out, even if they were just wandering around waiting from my breton mage-thief to come along. for the most part, i dig genetically modified badguys... mutants, twisted by magic, pollution or science. they have a reason to be there and a reason why they stay so close to large population centers. the pc could identify with them and if compassionate enough and willing to search out answers, possibly help them.

give me ways to remove large tracts of monsters in a single go is what i ask. and for christsakes NO RATS!!!

 

[Rayt]

I have, especially when I gave a bit of help to someone who ran a Planescape MUD. Many people like the setting, and have done so for long before the game came out, as it different from the stupid munchkinfest twinkery that the "Fanservice Realms" kiddies enjoy.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but didn't the Planesdcape setting use the same rulesytem as the Forgotten Realms and thus sort of allowed the same munchkinisms? Or didn't that happen because a different kind of people played Planescape campaigns?

Try browsing a lot through the listing at The Underdogs. Thank you.

Anything in particular you can recommend?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Maybe I'm being stupid, but didn't the Planesdcape setting use the same rulesytem as the Forgotten Realms and thus sort of allowed the same munchkinisms? Or didn't that happen because a different kind of people played Planescape campaigns?

If i recall correctly, the setting itself emphasized roleplaying itself more than munchkinism.

 

[Spazmo]

Well, Rayt, it was all D&D, but a big portion of it was design. Yeah, 2nd Ed. D&D was open to rampant minmaxing, but if you don't have all the ph4t l3wt and DRIZZITZZITZ of the Realms, it's okay.

But, to forestall Volourn, it always comes down to what kind of game the DM is running.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

i wouldn't mind the goblins if they did more than wander around waiting for my sweet, cold justice. they should have villages, or at the least, warrens where they restock and resupply from. something akin to those monster generators in gauntlet but alot more fleshed out. given the choice to either deal with raiding parties and ambushes throughout my journey in one area or to confront them. give me ways to confront them... searching out the warren and letting the county sherrif know where it is. poisoning the water supply and waiting several day/night cycles before i go back and have a go at the remnants of said horde and their l3w7. maybe after i deal with that problem, some orcs or other generic monster decides to set up camp because there's less competition. they're harder and the sherrif doesn't want anything to do with them this time... give me a reason why they're there and a way to be rid of them for good.

I tend to agree with this. That's one thing I've wanted in CRPGs for a while as a STANDARD feature. If you're going to have some critters annoying a town, make them have their own town that runs similar to how a town runs. That way, you allow the player several options with dealing with the problem based on a model rather than a few choice scripted situations. You can have scripted situations that interact with the system model of the town, but I think it would be a lot better to allow a player to just simply deal with a working system of an enemy/critter town and break that than have a script telling the player to go to X,Y and kill Z goblins for the big win.

the scariest 'monster' i've ever come across in rpgs was the golden saint from morrowind...

Rogue vlishes in Geneforge, the ones near Pentil. They have a variety of types there with effects ranging from terror to worse things, and they call out to one another. If you don't get them quickly, you can get swamped by them coming out of the wood work.

 

[Mulciber]

The idea of very few monsters is a great one. That's a large part of what 'fantastic' means, right? Uncommon, out-of-the-ordinary, not-bloody-normal. There's something to be said for only having monsters well off the beaten path- it keeps them special, and makes them a story of themselves instead of something you just try to beat the skittles out of. You could do things like having one big dragon in The Swamp of Noticable Unpleasantness that would bargain for her life if you actually managed to trounce her in combat- after all, she's been living for a long time and would likely want to keep doing so. Perhaps a family of trolls that's taken to raiding the mountain passes since that new dam upriver dried up the water suppy to their vegetable patch.

 

[obediah]

To be honest, at this point I'm much more interested in different monsters/races having varied ecologies, backstories, goals, etc.. rather than varied combat tactics or styles. Finding a 12' ogre in the middle of a dungeon with an 8' entrance pisses me off much more than using the same tactics to take down said ogre than a goblin. Conversly, I'd be much more happy about finding out the ogres have some history/goal or other reason for being other than to smash me, than I would be to find out they had some super leet throw or roundhouse ability I hadn't come caross before.

One of the many lessons PST has tought us is that shitty combat in a great game is fine as long as it isn't tedious.