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KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

Serus

Arcane
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart

Since when are Int 8-10 creatures supposed to be smart and have brilliant tactics? A battle with goblins and kobolds is a trash fight, a warm-up for real battles. Not a duel to the death with diabolical masterminds.
They aren't supposed to be retarded eaither, they're not animals but intelligent beings. It ultimately depends on the DM. But that's not very relevant. The point is that the principle of the thing applies to every fight in the game. Enemies with poor AI scripts will act less smart than the ones in DM hands. That remains true unless someone puts a lot (and I mean A LOT) of effort in writing good scripts which doesn't seem to be the case here. So even if we accept your assumptions that low INT enemies are supposed to act like retards the issue remains when you fight smarter enemies.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
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2,071
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Siberia
Aight had a first gamebreaking bug, at the very end of the Season of Bloom.

Burned flower, but quest remains active, specifically the part about capital, which I cleared first (before going into the womb) and just checked it's fully functional again, but I can't advance the plot anymore

:negative:

This game is so rigid when it comes to plot progression and scripted interactions, I figured out what was wrong in roughly THREE FUCKING HOURS, but anyways, apparently you have to talk to the guard AND the priest at the keep (which will trigger scripted interaction with the guard and him repeating exactly the same shit he just said). Granted you'll need a save with the flower intact (in our world) otherwise your game is buggered for good.
 

frajaq

Erudite
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Messages
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Brazil
So single target spells are a trap option early game right, considering they don't do more damage than weapons? I should just focus on things that buff allies or debuff enemies
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
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Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
They aren't supposed to be retarded eaither, they're not animals but intelligent beings. It ultimately depends on the DM. But that's not very relevant. The point is that the principle of the thing applies to every fight in the game. Enemies with poor AI scripts will act less smart than the ones in DM hands. That remains true unless someone puts a lot (and I mean A LOT) of effort in writing good scripts which doesn't seem to be the case here. So even if we accept your assumptions that low INT enemies are supposed to act like retards the issue remains when you fight smarter enemies.

I get that. Yet, at the end of the day, even if the player does everything "right" they are still going to barely make it through one or two of the encounters of the Sycamore dungeon, and there are at least 6 of them. So I'm supposed to rest after every other battle, and save scum like crazy, just to fight "normal" mobs? On top of that, the game punishes resting, so you have to savescum that too. It's all a bit much. I wonder how many players truly enjoy this level of challenge from every fight?

Mostly I question the decision to label this "normal" when it's clearly not.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
So single target spells are a trap option early game right, considering they don't do more damage than weapons? I should just focus on things that buff allies or debuff enemies

Level 0? Generally, yeah, unless you specifically need the damage type, they're generally going to be inferior to a light crossbow. Cantrips use a Dex modifier to their roll just like ranged weapons, so there's no difference in your chance to hit. I believe all single target spells at Level 1 auto-hit, so they can be useful as a source of guaranteed damage.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,889
Apart from detect magic and skills, are there any spells or character abilities that are usable in dialogue?
So far, I have yet to see any. No frost spells to douse fire in a scripted event, no lay on hands to heal wounded in a conversation, no classes called out in dialogue, or anything like that. Kinda odd, now when you mention it, considering the quality of the other input.

They might've been afraid of favoring certain characters based on class, which is a bit sad. PoE did, extremely so, which was frustrating, but the option of *no* such interactions is definitely the worse choice.
Yes but they implemented hidden skill checks that will show new options only if you passed them :)
 

Serus

Arcane
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Messages
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
They aren't supposed to be retarded eaither, they're not animals but intelligent beings. It ultimately depends on the DM. But that's not very relevant. The point is that the principle of the thing applies to every fight in the game. Enemies with poor AI scripts will act less smart than the ones in DM hands. That remains true unless someone puts a lot (and I mean A LOT) of effort in writing good scripts which doesn't seem to be the case here. So even if we accept your assumptions that low INT enemies are supposed to act like retards the issue remains when you fight smarter enemies.

I get that. Yet, at the end of the day, even if the player does everything "right" they are still going to barely make it through one or two of the encounters of the Sycamore dungeon, and there are at least 6 of them. So I'm supposed to rest after every other battle, and save scum like crazy, just to fight "normal" mobs? On top of that, the game punishes resting, so you have to savescum that too. It's all a bit much. I wonder how many players truly enjoy this level of challenge from every fight?

Mostly I question the decision to label this "normal" when it's clearly not.
Hey, I don't disagree with you about the game being poorly balanced. I'm with You. And the naming of difficulties might be off as well. However I do reject the idea that the correct thing to do for a CRPG is to use pnp standards and copy them 1:1 into the computer game. The end result will be a game much easier than PnP. The lack of a DM who is being replaced by, usually poorly optimized, AI scripts needs to be taken into account. Which basically means you need to make enemies stronger/more numerous than you would in a pnp to compensate for the AI inherent stupidity.
On the other hand Kingmaker guys might have went way too far with that line of thinking - and that's a valid criticism and we can agree on that.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
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Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
How do cleave/cleave finishing/greater cleave feats work in practice in this game? Are they good/worthwhile or waste of feats

To answer your question, yes they are worthwhile. The game is fairly generous about melee reach, your melee characters tend to get swarmed, so cleaving finish will get you a significant number of additional attacks. Great cleave I am more skeptical about but I haven't gotten it yet to test.
 

Trash Player

Scholar
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
438
Sneak attacks do more than 1d6. I just did 15 points with a heavy crossbow. Each weapon has a sneak/crit multiplier.

Sneak Attacks add 1d6 to your normal attack (plus an additional 1d6 for every other level). The weapon is irrelevant. But yes, weapons have different crit mulitipliers and thresholds.

They actually add the sneak die to all your attacks, so iterative attacks will also do sneak damage.

That's why hasted rogues are so dangerous on a flanked target.
I checked this with online PnP resources and was astounded as a result. WotC ain't handing this out even with 5e.
My first assumption is OwlCat doubled down with the overcompensation. Thanks man, this is a real eyeopener. Parabalus Munchkin Ahoy!
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
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Location
Ommadawn
The end result will be a game much easier than PnP.
it's almost like difficulty settings would still exist for those who want a masochist challenge...
woah...
I mean, you don't want to play on Core Rules anyway, clearly. Why the fuck are you against those who want the Core Rules to mean 1:1 PnP rules & creature stats? The stat bloat options won't disappear.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,298
How do cleave/cleave finishing/greater cleave feats work in practice in this game? Are they good/worthwhile or waste of feats

To answer your question, yes they are worthwhile. The game is fairly generous about melee reach, your melee characters tend to get swarmed, so cleaving finish will get you a significant number of additional attacks. Great cleave I am more skeptical about but I haven't gotten it yet to test.
Cleave in 3.5 is worth getting. It is an extra attack. With restrictions, but still a potential extra attack.

Great Cleave less so because the chances of you killing things in one shot at high levels is pretty low. Unless you abuse the hell out of rat mechanics, but your DM is licensed to whack you with the DMG if you try that shit.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,889
Here is a small dragon for Xeon ;)
dPh1rpM.png
post his roll stats on attack
How?
hover over the combat log messages that tell you "Hit" or "Miss". Basically any attack roll on the combat log.
For EXP just post the combat log after he's dead.
Here are the values:
Attack
fBbj9iW.png


Armour at its best
qwRPFQG.png



Also it gives 360xp.

Really disappointing battle!
That is not an Ancient Wyrm, someone mislabeled it. Report it as a bug. BY those stats that is more like a Very Young Dragon (and by its size as well).

EDIT: I guess I failed my Read check as well. As others said, this is a Wyvern , not a Dragon :D
 

Grampy_Bone

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I'm not necessarily seeing the "retarded ai" in action though. Sure, a few times I have been able to bait a kobold away from a group and instagib it, that's fair. But for the most part all the mobs trigger at the same time, and are set up in a way that's pretty advantageous for them (behind traps, archers on ledges, etc) and behave in a solid fashion. Enemy clerics spam hold person, when they are surrounded they blast negative energy channeling, the enemy forms a front line at a choke point, alchemists spam AoEs on the whole team, the melee foes will protect the clerics if I try to flank, the enemy archers snipe my casters, etc. etc. If I try to draw them out they retreat back to their defenses. It's hard to see how a super-smart human DM would set up these fights any different.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,298
I'm not necessarily seeing the "retarded ai" in action though. Sure, a few times I have been able to bait a kobold away from a group and instagib it, that's fair. But for the most part all the mobs trigger at the same time, and are set up in a way that's pretty advantageous for them (behind traps, archers on ledges, etc) and behave in a solid fashion. Enemy clerics spam hold person, when they are surrounded they blast negative energy channeling, the enemy forms a front line at a choke point, alchemists spam AoEs on the whole team, the melee foes will protect the clerics if I try to flank, the enemy archers snipe my casters, etc. etc. It's hard to see how a super-smart human DM would set up these fights any different.
Most of these things were in the Gold Box games.

Try Gateway to the Savage Frontier or Champions of Krynn some time. You are level 2 or so and every fight you run into with clerics have them smashing you in the face with Hold Persons. Usually from behind a wall of 8+ fighters. And you can't use missile weapons in 1st Ed when you are standing next to an enemy (i.e., the wall of 8+ fighters which is where the game starts your guys for the fight)
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,298
I got raped by two Manticores. /need to take a break
Fun fact: In DnD, Manticores have multiple spikes in the tail for even moar rapage! The original only had a scorpion tail.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,640
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
Most of these things were in the Gold Box games.

It's true, though the concept of CRs didn't exist back then, resting was easier, and there generally weren't time limits. The game more or less expected you to be fully rested for every fight, and fireball was the main game changer.

The magic item stripping portals in pools of darkness though could fuck right off.
 

Fedora Master

Arcane
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
27,828
So general consensus is that this game would be good if it were actually properly balanced and the enemy AI wasn't retarded?
Devs need to
- Fix spelling errors and such
- Fix bugs
- Make difficulty selection more clear
- Add a few QoL features

That's about it. Game is fine even now, just a bit rough.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Not really, fascism and communism are obviously both "extreme left" ideologies. The differences are really in the details, which do greatly differentiate them, but at their core (in principal) they both strive for the state and it's people to function as a symbiote, both taking care of eachother, as opposed to a power structure that only serves to keep itself in place while skimming off the top. Anywayssssssss
No, the differences are deep and profound, as are the core assumptions and philosophy. I understand how they can seem like they have superficial similarities by those that know nothing about either, but at their core, they are very different.

Just look at your mistaken assumption at the core, that they both strive for the state and it's people to function as a symbiote. This is wrong. The idea of integralism, the view of the nation and the national state as a super-organism, to be organized organically, most often espoused through the idea and state organization of corporatism (literally from the latin corpus, meaning body) is entirely a nationalist and fascist idea, widely discussed in the underlying philosophies of national-socialism, national-syndicalism, and fascism (or rather, their precursors) at the turn of the last century, such as by Rudolf Kjellén in his writings on realpolitik, geopolitics and biopolitics.

Meanwhile, the stated aim of Marxist thought always remain the abolishment of the state through various means. Why this doesn't happen and how communism tends to deal with reality (or fail to deal with it) is an entirely different discussion, but precisely at the core, this is just one major fundamental difference. Fascist ideologies do not seek to abolish the state at all, but consider it an expression of biology and have an evolutionary concept of statemanship rather than revolutionary.

While nationalist thoughts and fascistoid ideas are inherently opposed to dichotomy, they do have a dichotomous relationship to many marxist concepts. Communism is collectivist, while fascism is philosophically individualist, etc.

Fascism has nothing to do with the left-right spectrum anyway. You can be nationalistic as rightwing or leftwing. Just take a look at China. It is a commie country full of nationalistic fucks and is quite willing to use the military and force to get its way.

You are correct in that nationalism isn't right-wing or left-wing, insofar those concepts even have relevant meaning, but your example is flawed. While Chine has patriotic tendencies, they are state-bound, ethnocentric, and/or reactionary/chauvinist in nature, not nationalist.

Nationalism, at it's core, advocates for the creation and maintainance of national states for the good of the concerned members of said nation, a nation being a natural collective of an ethnicity that forms the basis of said nation. While it is arguable that China has this core by default, especially from an outsider's perspective (not acknowledging the various ethnic groups of China and it's regions), it doesn't actually profess anything like this as part of ideology or doctrine, not implicitly or explicitly.

If anything, China has strong imperialist tendencies in that it acknowledges spheres of influence rather than national self-determination, with the sole focus being the artificial entity of the collective chinese as determined by the chinese government, not the people or the folk.
 

panda

Savant
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
398
Ok so general consensus is just that the game is difficult?
It is perfectly alright on normal, but requires knowledge of the system.
It has some bugs, and needs some polishing, but overall it is damn fine game even now.
 

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