KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sykar]

Hideous Laughter:

This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature’s next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration. A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower is not affected. A creature whose type is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- +4 bonus for not being humanoid

Seems balanced to me.

Hold Person:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- Trolls are humanoid

Again, seems fine to me.

Both of these spells seem more or less identical to their D&D counterparts, even 2nd Edition Hold Person states that it works on humanoids. Maybe Trolls weren't classed as humanoids in 2nd Edition. In any case 2nd Edition Hold Person worked on groups of creatures and, if I remember correctly, didn't include a new save each turn.

Trolls are not humanoid except in shape. Never have been. They are classed as giants. Again, unless Paizo screwed the pooch.

A troll is a humanoid. 'Giant' and 'humanoid' are not mutually exclusive.

Trolls have hands, arms, legs, a human-like body, they have intelligence, etc. It's not at all unreasonable to classify them as humanoids.

If you want to argue that Trolls shouldn't be targetable by the Hold Person spell for gameplay balance reasons, then that's fine, but arguing that they aren't humanoid by definition is ridiculous.

Humanoid is a creature type in DnD games. It does NOT refer to its body shape. For purposes of spells and other effects, we refer to creature type, not body shape.

Have you even played DnD before???

I wish I could give an "autistic" rating here.

 

[Cael]

Have you even played DnD before???

this isn't DnD though

Paizo copied 3.5 for Pathfinder using the OGL. They have the same creature type distinctions with regards to spells and effects.

 

[Luckmann]

A troll is a humanoid. 'Giant' and 'humanoid' are not mutually exclusive.

...but arguing that they aren't humanoid by definition is ridiculous.

In Pathfinder, though, by definition, a troll is not a humanoid, it is a giant, no matter what your real-world taxinomy or dictionary tells you.

I know what you're getting at, but they have clearly tried to stay extremely close to the Pathfinder ruleset, often to the detriment of the game (or so I would argue). Not classifying trolls as giants is flat-out wrong by Pathfinder and DnD standards.

That being said, I've never particularly seen the sense in them being classified as giants rather than humanoids, but they are.

Edit: Nevermind. Turns out I'm fucking wrong. Can't say I mind. /Edit

The big question: should one play this now because it is , or wait for serious patching so as not to ruin the experience with bugs?

If you feel a bit desperate to play something, it's OK, or at least the start of the game is, but if you're not in any particular rush, I would wait maybe a month or so.

Addendum:

Paizo copied 3.5 for Pathfinder using the OGL. They have the same creature type distinctions with regards to spells and effects.

Yeah, but they apparently changed trolls from giants to humanoids, and if that was a mistake, they've had plenty of time to correct it, but they clearly haven't.

In Pathfinder, Giant is a subtype, not a type on it's own. Basically all classic giants are "humanoid (giant)" and honestly, that makes a lot more sense. There were a lot of monsters in 3.5 that were immune to things that affected humanoids, and their sole defining trait was that they were really big and thus considered Giants instead of humanoids. It's arguable that this was partly a spell issue (why can Enlarge Person only target humanoids, what's the functional difference, magic-wise, between a humanoid and an animal in this context, wtf), but in this case Paizo's decision in regards to types/subtypes and creatures was the right one.

 

[Cael]

Addendum:

Paizo copied 3.5 for Pathfinder using the OGL. They have the same creature type distinctions with regards to spells and effects.

Yeah, but they apparently changed trolls from giants to humanoids, and if that was a mistake, they've had plenty of time to correct it, but they clearly haven't.

In Pathfinder, Giant is a subtype, not a type on it's own. Basically all classic giants are "humanoid (giant)" and honestly, that makes a lot more sense. There were a lot of monsters in 3.5 that were immune to things that affected humanoids, and their sole defining trait was that they were really big and thus considered Giants instead of humanoids. It's arguable that this was partly a spell issue (why can Enlarge Person only target humanoids, what's the functional difference, magic-wise, between a humanoid and an animal in this context, wtf), but in this case Paizo's decision in regards to types/subtypes and creatures was the right one.

I understand that. I disagree with it as it increases the power of low level spells which is a bad thing in the context of a game that already places far too much emphasis on spells. By restricting the humanoid type to vaguely human-like creatures in terms of playability and culture, it makes those spells only target a restricted set of creatures. As it is now, those spells have been opened up to 2-3 times the number of possible target races, which translates to a far higher proportion of enemies faced (you don't run into 10,000 giants and 1 orc, at least not in normal gameplay).

However, his argument using morphology as the definition of "humanoid" is flat out wrong in the context of the game.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Think they should focus more on this and less on making the game accessible to retards. Patches added various "Decrease resolution to increase performance, duh!" notices everywhere, but I can't leave the throne room without a crash. ;/

 

[Fedora Master]

Tried a different character on the Hard difficulty with the latest patch. Trading post bandits still make pincushions out of everyone. Heck, even poor old Bokken, that guy goes down within the first round because the AI focuses on low AC first.

 

[Andnjord]

Trudging my way through the Old Sycamore tree at lvl 3, the going is tough, but we're making progress. I do seriously hate that every other creature causes permanent stats decreases, that shit is PAAAAINFUL!!!

 

[Doma]

I'm LN and LN option is to kill all of them cause Justice.

I also found this insane shit

Spoiler

liek what even the fuck
Legolas pls.

what? Where??

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

I'm LN and LN option is to kill all of them cause Justice.

I also found this insane shit

Spoiler

liek what even the fuck
Legolas pls.

what? Where??

In the troll stronghold.

 

[Andnjord]

Also, is there a way to get rid of webs on the ground?

 

[ArchAngel]

Wear some heavy armour?

Trip attacks are CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense) which ignores armor. Plus we're talking about a tutorial fight at the beginning of the game. The wolves are supposed to teach you about camping, not rape you to death.

How the fuck does a wolf ignore platemail?

He does not. Wolf rolls his normal bite attack first. IF he hits he does bite damage and rolls his trip rolls vs your CMD as a free action.

Normal opponents can try to trip without needing to hit normally, plate armor does not help vs someone just trying to get you down on the ground (it would actually need to make it easier but I guess designers didn't want to nerf heavy armors).

 

[Brancaleone]

In order to address the Steam ratings, I think the devs should just rename the difficulties, from

Story Mode --> Easy --> Normal --> Challenging --> Hard --> Unfair

to

Champion of Justice --> Titanic Intellectual --> Neckbeard --> Autist --> MGTOW --> White Supremacist

This way all the assorted faggotry will feel mightily accomplished playing within the first two difficulty levels and won't even touch 3 to 6, devs will be able to focus on actual bugs and polishing, and everybody will be happy (minus Roqua, of course).

 

[Fedora Master]

Ran into a rando encounter with 2 Bandit Brawlers, a bard and a bunch of normal chumps. At level 2. The random encounter table is still not exactly balanced.

 

[Dodo1610]

Think they should focus more on this and less on making the game accessible to retards. Patches added various "Decrease resolution to increase performance, duh!" notices everywhere, but I can't leave the throne room without a crash. ;/

Have you posted it in Steam forum

 

[ArchAngel]

Regardless, the bow I have equipped on her would be much better as an auto-attack, and would obviously still trigger sneak attacks when possible.

Maybe the spell is set to autocast?

Just so we're clear, what's her int score? Maybe the AI works within the scope of the INT score.

Her int is 19, (21 since I gave her a hat) so... probably not.

Regardless, the bow I have equipped on her would be much better as an auto-attack, and would obviously still trigger sneak attacks when possible.

Maybe the spell is set to autocast?

Doesn't seem to be... there's a glowing border around the icon if it is set to autocast.

The trick I've found is to keep her within bow range but out of acid splash range. It wastes point blank shot, but is still preferable. Dragon Age's or POE2's customizable AI scripting would be a huge incline.

I would say that you don't want her to use her ranged weapon. Ranged Touch attacks also use your Dex for attack rolls and they ignore enemy armor, shield or natural armor. Even with crossbow or bow having better base damage, something like Acid Splash will hit more often and your damage comes from sneak attack anyways, not from base damage. Also acid damage will ignore stuff like damage reduction and similar.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's good people are talking about mechanics instead of how shit the game is or trying to play advocate for it. I kinda want to try it now (in a few months).

 

[Elex]

I'm LN and LN option is to kill all of them cause Justice.

I also found this insane shit

Spoiler

liek what even the fuck
Legolas pls.

what? Where??

In the troll stronghold.

in one week people will complain that the game is too easy even at unfair.

 

[Cael]

Ran into a rando encounter with 2 Bandit Brawlers, a bard and a bunch of normal chumps. At level 2. The random encounter table is still not exactly balanced.

This alone makes me think about playing the game. Knowing when to run is a skill that few players have learnt due to lenient DMs and retardedly easy computer games. For a game to have encounters where it is run or die is very refreshing. One of the reasons why I like ToEE and Ultima.

 

[Fedora Master]

Ran into a rando encounter with 2 Bandit Brawlers, a bard and a bunch of normal chumps. At level 2. The random encounter table is still not exactly balanced.

This alone makes me think about playing the game. Knowing when to run is a skill that few players have learnt due to lenient DMs and retardedly easy computer games. For a game to have encounters where it is run or die is very refreshing. One of the reasons why I like ToEE and Ultima.

You can't run away from encounters. You can avoid them with a skill check but once they found you...

 

[Cael]

Ran into a rando encounter with 2 Bandit Brawlers, a bard and a bunch of normal chumps. At level 2. The random encounter table is still not exactly balanced.

This alone makes me think about playing the game. Knowing when to run is a skill that few players have learnt due to lenient DMs and retardedly easy computer games. For a game to have encounters where it is run or die is very refreshing. One of the reasons why I like ToEE and Ultima.

You can't run away from encounters. You can avoid them with a skill check but once they found you...

*puts another tick in the retarded feature column*

 

[rusty_shackleford]

gave Amiri a glaive(6ft range), survivability went way up.
feel like her default weapon should have 6ft range tbh

 

[rusty_shackleford]

hold onto your books btw, some quests require them

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Also, is there a way to get rid of webs on the ground?

Go do something else for 5 minutes

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So played for a while. Amiri's character is the poorest written "I am a woman, hear me roar" thing. Clearly, the writer understands that she is exceptional but it is pointed out by her in the most childish way possible. I am not sure whether to blame the D&D "barbarian be stupid" trope or the author's lack of skill.

Amiri is a Pathfinder character, I don't think the devs got a lot of freedom in writing her.

 

[fobia]

So most recent ratings on steam do not complain about the difficulty, but bugs galore and an 'unfinished' feel.
Any 'dexers playing the game have an opinion on that?