Valky
Arcane
More of a sidescroller than a metroidvania but Trine 2 is a beautifully made game, very fun.
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Any good metroidvania recommendations?
- Thread starter deama
- Start date
Why would you dilute a specific request for metroidvania recommendations with standard platformer recommendations? Do you just like to watch yourself type?
There are thousands of indie platformers. Finding metroidvanias within the oversaturated heap of them is the goal here.
Valky
Arcane
They are similar in playstyle and I think Trine 2 is a game worth sharing.
They're not even platformers, although they casually look like one when glancing at a still screenshot. Trine are puzzle games. That makes them even less comparable to a metroidvania game than a standard fare platformer.
While at the core they have jumping on 2d plane the mechanics are ultra casual and they are quite boring tripe for someone looking for actual platformers and not "put that box there and that log over there" type of gymnastics. And when there are things moving on the screen it's at a glacial pace.
They truly represent everything there is to the typical beardy hipster indie dev.
DraQ
Arcane
J1M
Arcane
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 14,626
As a general addition they would be fine.
As a direct swap for proper bosses they were a miss.
I thought soul reaver's gameplay was garbage.
DraQ
Arcane
There are several (repeating) miniboss types if you really crave boss battles.
Personally I'm not sure I would want them given combat being so bare-bones.
Maximum airtime platforming is when Ori truly shines (pun intended).
Why? It's not a platformy kind of 'vania but once you get your bearings with the unusual controls it's quite nice with decent combat putting emphasis on dodging and agility (both Raziel and his vampiric opponents are fast and once you get SR you need to stay at full health to be able to use it), making a nice contrast between humans and vampires (human cultist and vampire hunters can be very deadly, but they are fragile - one TK slam into a wall and they die, vampires OTOH can't be killed without using environmental hazards, impalement + soul suck or SR), allowing instakill snipe/sneak attacks; and some nice puzzles often relying on plane shifting and differences between plane properties. You also get some nice exploration and backtracking, where gaining the ability to survive water immersion marks a major change in how water affects gameplay.
It's a gud game.
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The combat was ok, but I don't particularly like lock-on based combat, because usually if you have lock-on combat, then the controls are shit.
Having to have full hp to use SR I didn't like and thought it was a shitty gimmick, soul reaver 2's implementation I liked much better.
The puzzles I guess are ok? But a lot of them are block pushing shit, and they can get tedius at points, especially if you want/need to take a break, then you'd need to find a save point, etc...
Also, I hate how the plane shifting is done in the legacy of kain games, I think it's really annoying how they limited it to certain places, I absolutely hate it! Why couldn't they just give you free rein over it? It would have been much cooler and much less gimmicky ffs! Then they could have more interesting puzzle designs too!
Also, coming from a metroidvania perspective, I thought the upgrades were garbage too. Being able to shift through cages? Ok, NO WAIT! Being able to shift through cages ONLY in the green plane! Ok...
NO WAIT! Being able to shift through cages ONLY in the green plane, BUT we'll mostly use giant metal slabs instead! Ok, gg, best devs ever.
SR had a lot of potentiall tbh, I donno why they didn't just add in more cool, perma upgrades? Why not add in an upgrade for raziel to fly for several seconds? Why not add an upgrade to be able to do plane shifting at any point? Why make the cage shifting thing so restrictive? Why make the climbing so restrictive?
A lot of the upgrades you get just feel like green/blue/red door keys, I really hate that.
Ventidius
Arbiter
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2017
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- 552
Soul Reaver was a nice attempt to translate Metroidvania design elements to 3D, but while the overall product was solid, it didn't really succeed in some of the staples of the genre like a fully fleshed out suite of upgrades with their own physics that are environmentally interactive and allow you to progress through new areas. Admittedly, this is a harder thing to pull off in 3D than in 2D. The only games that really did a good job of it were the Metroid Prime series: they implemented a variety of systems into the exploration such as the Grapple Beam, Morph Ball, Spider Ball, Double Jump, special visors, and in Prime 2 even the Screw Attack. Many of these systems could also be used in combat. All of this was integrated into what is still some of the best 3D level design ever made. The Sanctuary Fortress and Phazon Mines can easily rival any particular area in any 2D Metroidvania. Plus, they had great bosses (particularly 1 and 3). On the flipside, they were maybe a bit too linear (especially 3), but only really if you compare them to Super Metroid or SotN. 1 and 2 are arguably less linear than stuff like Metroid Fusion and Order of Ecclesia.
Other than that, there aren't really a great deal of 3D Metroidvanias out there. I guess Arkham Asylum and Darksiders are sort of like that, but they are on the popamolish side of things. It's a shame too, since Metroidvanias tend to be highly atmospheric games that place emphasis in crafting environments you have to analyze and interact with, and thus are complemented very well by the possibilities in art direction introduced by 3D environments. Again, the Prime games are a great example of this, especially in the way they fleshed out the ecosystems and architecture of the planets you explored, which was further compounded by the scan system, which gave them yet another way to convey the planet's lore. I love how Metroid Prime doesn't even have a "story" but flows naturally from Samus's exploration of the planet and investigation of the clues left by the ruined Chozo civilization, Pirate logs, and environmental anomalies like Phazon, leading all the way up to the "Worm". Many games have a similar structure, and do it well too, but few felt so satisfying, mainly due to how the environment, world-building, and art-direction was used. The only downside of 3D is probably less overall complexity in level design, I doubt a 3D Metroidvania will ever top Super Metroid in this regard.
Other than that, there aren't really a great deal of 3D Metroidvanias out there. I guess Arkham Asylum and Darksiders are sort of like that, but they are on the popamolish side of things. It's a shame too, since Metroidvanias tend to be highly atmospheric games that place emphasis in crafting environments you have to analyze and interact with, and thus are complemented very well by the possibilities in art direction introduced by 3D environments. Again, the Prime games are a great example of this, especially in the way they fleshed out the ecosystems and architecture of the planets you explored, which was further compounded by the scan system, which gave them yet another way to convey the planet's lore. I love how Metroid Prime doesn't even have a "story" but flows naturally from Samus's exploration of the planet and investigation of the clues left by the ruined Chozo civilization, Pirate logs, and environmental anomalies like Phazon, leading all the way up to the "Worm". Many games have a similar structure, and do it well too, but few felt so satisfying, mainly due to how the environment, world-building, and art-direction was used. The only downside of 3D is probably less overall complexity in level design, I doubt a 3D Metroidvania will ever top Super Metroid in this regard.
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sullynathan
Arcane
My dream is of a new Metroid Prime game or a 3D Metroid game that is as fast as the 2D metroid games
RoSoDude
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2016
- Messages
- 730
I maintain that System Shock 1's level design shares many salient features with that of a Metroidvania, with sprawling nonlinear levels gated not just with keycards (where the comparisons between Dark Souls and Metroidvania end) but also with character upgrades which grant the player new ways to interact with their environment through movement physics and hazard protection. As you explore the densely branching levels of Citadel Station, which are connected by multiple individual elevators just like in Super Metroid, you'll find areas which are inaccessible because you lack a keycard or access code, there's an obstacle in your path which requires an ability you lack, or you've approached them from the wrong side. This inspires the same gameplay loop as a Metroidvania, where you take note of the places you can't yet reach and return or loop around to them when you've obtained the correct tools, items, and info, eventually mastering the layout of the entire game world as you zip and blast your way through now familiar interconnected spaces. There's even a highly granular automap that fills in as you explore, which has always been one of the most joyful aspects of these games for me. I'd also argue that it fits the bill in terms of atmosphere and a coherent sense of place with its world design (something it has in common with the other games in the Looking Glass lineage), which is impressive considering it was contemporaneous with Super Metroid and did it in 1st-person with 3D environments eight years before Metroid Prime.
Obviously it's not totally the same, with less focus on platforming, a smaller suite of puzzle-solving abilities, very few bosses, and a much greater emphasis on emergent open-ended gameplay and explicit goals delivered by audio logs and emails. But if you're looking for an innovative and complex 3D hybrid game with Metroidvania-like level design which leaves it up to you to explore and figure things out for yourself, System Shock 1 is a must-play. Plus the source port is out now, so you no longer have any excuse
Obviously it's not totally the same, with less focus on platforming, a smaller suite of puzzle-solving abilities, very few bosses, and a much greater emphasis on emergent open-ended gameplay and explicit goals delivered by audio logs and emails. But if you're looking for an innovative and complex 3D hybrid game with Metroidvania-like level design which leaves it up to you to explore and figure things out for yourself, System Shock 1 is a must-play. Plus the source port is out now, so you no longer have any excuse
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System shock 1 vs 2, what's your opinion? Which one is better and why?I maintain that System Shock 1's level design shares many salient features with that of a Metroidvania, with sprawling nonlinear levels gated not just with keycards (where the comparisons between Dark Souls and Metroidvania end) but also with character upgrades which grant the player new ways to interact with their environment through movement physics and hazard protection. As you explore the densely branching levels of Citadel Station, which are connected by multiple individual elevators just like in Super Metroid, you'll find areas which are inaccessible because you lack a keycard or access code, there's an obstacle in your path which requires an ability you lack, or you've approached them from the wrong side. This inspires the same gameplay loop as a Metroidvania, where you take note of the places you can't yet reach and return or loop around to them when you've obtained the correct tools, items, and info, eventually mastering the layout of the entire game world as you zip and blast your way through now familiar interconnected spaces. There's even a highly granular automap that fills in as you explore, which has always been one of the most joyful aspects of these games for me. I'd also argue that it fits the bill in terms of atmosphere and a coherent sense of place with its world design (something it has in common with the other games in the Looking Glass lineage), which is impressive considering it was contemporaneous with Super Metroid and did it in 1st-person with 3D environments eight years before Metroid Prime.
Obviously it's not totally the same, with less focus on platforming, a smaller suite of puzzle-solving abilities, very few bosses, and a much greater emphasis on emergent open-ended gameplay and explicit goals delivered by audio logs and emails. But if you're looking for an innovative and complex 3D hybrid game with Metroidvania-like level design which leaves it up to you to explore and figure things out for yourself, System Shock 1 is a must-play. Plus the source port is out now, so you no longer have any excuse
RoSoDude
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2016
- Messages
- 730
System shock 1 vs 2, what's your opinion? Which one is better and why?I maintain that System Shock 1's level design shares many salient features with that of a Metroidvania, with sprawling nonlinear levels gated not just with keycards (where the comparisons between Dark Souls and Metroidvania end) but also with character upgrades which grant the player new ways to interact with their environment through movement physics and hazard protection. As you explore the densely branching levels of Citadel Station, which are connected by multiple individual elevators just like in Super Metroid, you'll find areas which are inaccessible because you lack a keycard or access code, there's an obstacle in your path which requires an ability you lack, or you've approached them from the wrong side. This inspires the same gameplay loop as a Metroidvania, where you take note of the places you can't yet reach and return or loop around to them when you've obtained the correct tools, items, and info, eventually mastering the layout of the entire game world as you zip and blast your way through now familiar interconnected spaces. There's even a highly granular automap that fills in as you explore, which has always been one of the most joyful aspects of these games for me. I'd also argue that it fits the bill in terms of atmosphere and a coherent sense of place with its world design (something it has in common with the other games in the Looking Glass lineage), which is impressive considering it was contemporaneous with Super Metroid and did it in 1st-person with 3D environments eight years before Metroid Prime.
Obviously it's not totally the same, with less focus on platforming, a smaller suite of puzzle-solving abilities, very few bosses, and a much greater emphasis on emergent open-ended gameplay and explicit goals delivered by audio logs and emails. But if you're looking for an innovative and complex 3D hybrid game with Metroidvania-like level design which leaves it up to you to explore and figure things out for yourself, System Shock 1 is a must-play. Plus the source port is out now, so you no longer have any excuse
Oh boy, not this again. There's already a thread for this (see some of my thoughts in response to another dude here). The short of it is, both are wonderful games, play both and preferably in order. I prefer SS2, but it has rather different priorities (not comparable to a Metroidvania, think more Deus Ex with survival horror elements). In my opinion, SS2's gameplay systems cohere better and interact with one another more deeply, and there is more meaningful tension and challenge to be had with scarcer resources and tough character building choices. It does come at the cost of some of the aforementioned aspects of SS1 as well as some of its sheer breadth, but it's a shift in design, not simply more or less of the same. And don't turn the music off.
DraQ
Arcane
I'm not a fan of lock-on combat, but SR1 did it right with rapid engagement and disengagement and fast forward/backward/circling movement. The controls were weird but serviceable.
I think it was great mechanics because it encouraged striving for perfection without forcing you to be perfect.
As for SR2, what I really appreciated is how the mechanics only changed from SR1's after the relevant plot event. That's some serious dedication to the continuity that's one of the series' main shticks.
Block pushing were ok, if bog-standard, but it's really the other puzzles that take the cake. They could be quite creative relying on your different abilities and differences in how material and spectral realms worked.
Also, there were no save points in SR1 IIRC. There were portals and all the shortcuts but you always started in the abyss on load.
WTF? How the fuck can you be so wrong?
First, you could always go to the spectral at any place or moment, only the return trip to the material required fairly generously placed portals.
Second, unlimited warping back and forth would break pretty much everything - combat (where it would become an extremely tedious variant of timefreeze plus teleportation, plus healing), puzzles, everyfuckingthing.
Even a metroidvania needs ways to gate player. Continuous obstacles are a good way to curb in an ability to go through discontinuous barriers.
Climbing was indeed meh.
If anything 3D allows for more complex design for obvious reasons.
It might come at the price of clarity, though.
Since these portals were so generous, should have just fucking removed that shit and given you the ability to shift at any point.
Yes, obviously it would fucking break the game if you gave player full freedom with shifting, that's why you have to re-design it somewhat. Also, how would it break combat? You fight a vampire thing, if you lose against it you auto shift to spectral place and then you fill up on hp and shift back... wait a second, that's how they done it!!!!
Yes, there need to be ways to gate players, but I didn't like it how they done it, it seemed too obvious to me that "cages" were placed there for a reason for the player, rather than built by soldiers to keep something away.
Quite frankly, once you've played Hollow Knight, Super Metroid, and perhaps the best 2-3 Castlevanias (whichever those are; I've played so many over the decades that I have trouble distinguishing one from the other), you can hang up your hat. You've seen the best the genre has to offer.
DraQ
Arcane
Since the portals were so generous - why whine about them?
You fight a vampire thing, you shift into spectral (time stop in material because that's how it works and puzzles rely on that) shift into material in a different spot - like behind vampire's back, kick it in the ass once, rinse, repeat.
Bars are common way to not let people in and were used quite naturally in SR. Solid doors are another common method of not letting people in - likewise.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2013
- Messages
- 12,802
That's like saying you can stop playing RPGs, we already had Wiz7, the Goldbox games and Fallout, nothing else will ever come close. I rather try out new games and see what they have to offer. Axiom Verge, Environmental Station Alpha, the one with the Mexican theme, lots of other metroidvania that have great gameplay and interesting ideas
Siveon
Bot
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
- Messages
- 4,509
Took the words out of my mouth. There are many metroidvanias these days that have something different to offer, or have something about them that makes them a bit more fun. The unabashed tabletop inspired ruleset of Unepic, the style and grace of games like Valdis Story or Dust, the addicting and unconventional level design of Steamworld Dig, etc.
Because I don't like my freedom taken away from me.
I don't understand, how is that scene different between the normal SR way or the SR with no shifting restrictions?
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