Depth of Extinction - turn-based roguelike RPG set in a flooded world

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

But as I said, it is pretty minor as half door openings result in a pod activation anyway. My main problem is the map design now that I played a bit more. I guess you could breach a room from 2 sides, though, but many don't even let you do this, and given the myopic range of your troopers, that could backfire horribly as you could end up with one team unable to support another (but leveling seems to make them a bit less myopic, so maybe it is viable at higher levels?).

There's some line of sight related bugs that come apparent when you try flanking from secondary door.

 

[Galdred]

Apparently, it depends on the opponents: Robots get to scuttle as in nuXCOM, and are added right after the active character in the turn order, so it is even worse than the pods in XCOM (in that you need to OW bait even more).

 

[Kruno]

Does this game have romance? I refuse to buy an RPG without romance. You can't call a game an RPG if it doesn't have romance!

 

[Galdred]

Does this game have romance? I refuse to buy an RPG without romance. You can't call a game an RPG if it doesn't have romance!

Actually, it could be considered a tactical Roguelike, so characters have literally no interaction. Characters stats are entirely defined by whatever skills you chose to increase on level up (+ the class you chose on the first level up), so 2 rookies will be entirely identical to each other.
Some more random thoughts:

Opponents are immune to overwatch on pod reveal(wtf?).
Breaching a room from two side is usually much better than going from a single side.
The follow command is handy when moving from one room to another, it is a reasonable alternative to JA2 RT movement: it is slower, but characters won't mess up as much when transitionning from one mode to another.
But your characters will become suicidal and throw caution to the wind whenever they spot something to loot.
Some maps can be difficult if you don't spend too much time farming on easy (harder areas give better loot that you can usually not get in easier ones, even from merchants): This is a good way to balance encounters without level scaling.
No save during combat is a big letdown. It lets you sidestep permadeath, as you will come back at the beginning of the encounter if you leave the game and restarts, so it is basically bronzeman more than ironman (but the encounter is rerolled, so there is a good chance you won't have a place to storm this time).

I had to mute the voices, because soldier banters was mediocre and too repetitive. The music is nice, though.


It does several things better than nuXCOM:
+ Given that opponents stick to their room, pod management is not as big an issue as in XCOM.
+ Classes feel less "gamey" than in XCOM, because all characters have access to some generic skills (actually, improving skills also improve relevant stats, like sight distance, movement, dodge...)+one set of skills specific to the class.
+ You can use non class equipment which is nice. It usually comes with a downside (most of the time, reloading ends the turn).
+ you can destroy most cover (except walls) with regular weapons. Walls cannot be destroyed at all (but given that we are supposed to fight in submarines or underwater bases unless I got the story wrong, it makes some sense).
+ You can chose the class of your character on level up.
+-Combat is also much less lethal than in XCOM (as in, it takes much longer for your guys to die on average, so letting one of your armored guy in the open is no big deal).

-However, the battles feel more like your typical RPG micro encounters because of the pod+room system, except in the few semi-open maps where you fight on floating platforms (these maps have almost no wall at all, but platform are connected to each other by narrow bridges).I much prefer these maps, as you almost don't notice the pod system.
-Also the FTL choose your next point of interest mini game doesn't replace a proper geoscape.



As I said before, the games that played the closest for me was Halfway, so if you liked its combat, this one should be fine (it could be considred a roguelike variation of halfway, with less cramped maps, but much weaker art direction and less focus on story).

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

As I said before, the games that played the closest for me was Halfway, so if you liked its combat, this one should be fine (it could be considred a roguelike variation of halfway, with less cramped maps, but much weaker art direction and less focus on story).

Obvious problem with that comparison is that Robotality's next game Pathway will probably be released soon.

 

[Galdred]

As I said before, the games that played the closest for me was Halfway, so if you liked its combat, this one should be fine (it could be considred a roguelike variation of halfway, with less cramped maps, but much weaker art direction and less focus on story).

Obvious problem with that comparison is that Robotality's next game Pathway will probably be released soon.

That is a good point. Pathway seems more story focused, while DoE is more tactical Roguelike.
I really wish they got rid of the trash fights, though.
They become especially meaningless once you get characters with HP regen.

 

[CryptRat]

The absence of trash fights is one of the things I liked about Halfway, I hope Pathway won't end up being a totally different beast due to randomness.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I think the other problem with the game is that only "unlock a new crew member type" missions put some real pressure on player.
On normal missions you're always able to farm exp. for A-team, money wont be a problem.
There's nothing that'll hook you in the campaign besides unlocking new areas/subs/classes.
I've played the game for 20 hours and I've never suffered more than 2 or 3 points damage for subs; fuel seems plentiful too, never run out. Where are dangerzones that you'll have to move through (minefields etc.)

Of course tactical level has some glaring problems too.
-Easy to come by build on assault class that will kill anything under 2 squares distance. (This will be patched away, but still unbelievable that such easy exploit made into release.)
-Enemy pods that'll activate only when players unit directly sees one of their member. Yes, you can clear some rooms with AOE damage without enemies doing anything as long as you don't see them. Same with turrets; activated turrets (which are hostile against you and enemy factions) only pop up when you see them.
-Itemisation: game offers lots of different items, but there since there isn't proper inventory management or item deterioration; you can always use best stuff or stuff you happen to like. For that matter there is very little difference between frag grenades (4 damage, change to cripple) and molotovs (4 damage, change to set target unit on fire)
-I'll always consider tactical game without morale related mechanics "lesser".

There's some stuff that it does right besides looking reasonably pretty.
-Cover deterioration under fire.
-AI is reasonably good at flanking and grenade usage.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[Beowulf]

Another indie disappointment.

The combat, which is supposed to be the meat of the game, just wastes your time.
The encounters can last seconds, but the game constantly pauses to show you spotted loot, spotted enemy and so on, and it feels like it unnecessarily doubles the time of encounters.
The environments are quite monotone; which, combined with very repetitive locations, adds to the disappointment.

 

[Galdred]

Another indie disappointment.

The combat, which is supposed to be the meat of the game, just wastes your time.
The encounters can last seconds, but the game constantly pauses to show you spotted loot, spotted enemy and so on, and it feels like it unnecessarily doubles the time of encounters.
The environments are quite monotone; which, combined with very repetitive locations, adds to the disappointment.

That is a good point, everything goes too slowly, especially out of combat. The lack of in combat save makes it aggravating. Even the follow command makes it take forever to go from one spot to another.
I don't even really have a problem with the lack of environment diversity. For me the problem is that in the end, it almost always come down to assaulting a rectangular room after another.

 

[Dexter]

I didn't even know devs could do this on Steam, has anyone told Cleve?

https://www.pcinvasion.com/depth-of-extinction-scandal-online-outrage/

Depth Of Extinction Scandal: Are Gamers Too Vindictive And Outraged?
October 24, 2018 by Jason Rodriguez

“For every minute you remain angry, you give up sixty seconds of peace of mind”. That quote is attributed to American poet and philosopher Ralph Waldo Emerson. Those words ring truer in today’s world, where getting outraged over every trifling thing on the news or social media is the norm. In some ways, one could even go so far as to suggest that there are people whose peace of mind is attained once they’ve seen their anger through. One recent example is the scandal involving the indie title Depth of Extinction. A developer’s actions have caused quite an online outrage among gamers. In a few examples, we can even see a sense of vindictiveness among those providing their reactions.

Disclaimer: We do not agree nor condone the actions of HOF Studios (which we’ll outline below). We are simply examining gamer reactions from a psychological standpoint.



The Depth Of Extinction Scandal
Depth of Extinction is an indie title from HOF Studios. The gameplay is in the vein of XCOM and FTL, although it is rough around the edges. It has, so far, received somewhat of a lukewarm response among Steam Curators. However, there was one review that kickstarted this entire fiasco.

On October 5, a Steam user by the name of Ryan Dorkoski left a negative review of the game after playing it for 1.2 hours. It was nuanced, detailed, and fair. Unfortunately, the developers disliked this critique and they ended up removing Dorkoski’s game from his Steam library. Yikes!


From Steam: Ryan Dorkoski citing his experience on October 5 and how the matter was resolved on the same day.

The player then went on the game’s Steam forum to voice his complaints. Later that day, the developer gave him a new key and apologized profusely for their actions. Dorkoski rightfully did not like the whole ordeal, but the apology was accepted. He even provided additional feedback for the game.


Also from October 5: Dorkoski considering it case closed with a “no worries, all good” reply and mentioning that he even sent an email with additional feedback.

Normally, the story ends here — an indie developer screws up, apologizes, the apology is accepted, and everyone moves on with their lives. But this is 2018. We have the two-headed beast known as The Internet and Social Media to consider. And so the story broke out… almost three weeks later.

Spoiler

Reddit Reacts
On October 20, a story was published by the GamingonLinux website which provided the details. That story was subsequently submitted on Reddit, causing a lot of users to become upset. Here are some takeaways that Reddit users had:

• “Developers can revoke your Steam game anytime they want.”
• “If they don’t like what you say, say goodbye to a purchase that you made.”
• “It’s like if you buy a car. If you tell the manufacturer that you don’t like it, they can take it away from you!”
• “That’s thievery! They stole from a gamer/consumer!”
• “Valve should increase its security for the benefit of players!”

Apart from that, the discussion devolved into wondering if other developers would end up doing such a thing, debates about DRM, promoting freedom of speech, asking for Steam blacklisting, and so on.

What many users forgot was an important fact: if you buy a game on Steam, it doesn’t just magically disappear from your library because devs hate you. It can, however, happen if you buy alpha, beta, or test keys from third-party websites — but this happens very rarely.

That’s actually what happened in this case. Dorkoski purchased an alpha key from itch.io. Alpha, beta, and test keys are usually sent out in bulk by publishers. Keys might sometimes no longer work, but this is done in batches (usually when a promotion or beta ends). Likewise, locking out a specific key and removing the game itself on Steam is no easy task. Some users surmised that this was made possible because of the username Dorkoski used when purchasing on itch.io as well as his Steam account — but this is all speculation.


Depth of Extinction – Just a handful of comments on Reddit when the news broke out on r/pcgaming.

So, again, if you buy a game directly from Steam, developers cannot instantly delete them from your library. Unfortunately, the opposite idea has spread, which has caused a commotion among certain gamers all because of unfounded worries that “Steam games in our libraries will disappear if we criticize a developer.”



HOF Studios Apologizes… Again
Following up on the news story, another article appeared on October 21. This one contained yet another apology from one of the developers:

This game was my whole life for three years, and I was unprepared three weeks ago for how the launch and first wave of negative reviews would impact me emotionally. I reacted poorly to a negative review by a person who had purchased our alpha key on a different platform. I took the review personally. My response of revoking the key was wrong and I will not try to explain it away, but will take full responsibility. I gave them a new key the next morning after they emailed me and I also apologized to them over email. Here’s a further apology to anyone else who is offended by these events – I am truly sorry for my actions. I’m hoping that I can use this incident to continue to grow and mature as a human and as a game developer.

So yes, almost three weeks ago, the aggrieved player received an apology from the developer. Today, the developer apologized again for their actions addressing the entire gaming community, I guess, or whoever was offended. Normally, the story ends here (again) — but this is 2018! We have The Internet and Social Media, remember?


More reactions from Reddit: These ones were made after HOF Studios issued a public apology addressing the entire matter.

The Internet Does Not Forgive, It Does Not Forget
Reddit users remained upset at the events from three weeks ago. Many could not accept the developer’s apology, and there are some who advocated for even more punishment. Some called for blacklisting the developer or banning them on Steam. Others wanted to ridicule them more on social media platforms. Some called for the devs to be featured in YouTube shows where they would be lambasted further — “broke, bankrupt, and unemployed”. Of course, there were a few who did the usual: “Imagine if I bought a car” rhetoric.

On the Depth of Extinction Steam page, you might notice that everything’s been quiet for the past couple of weeks until recently. That’s when several topics talking about “THEFT!” “banning the developer on Steam” started cropping up. One particular topic (from October 5) wherein a player wanted to support developers and provide more constructive criticism suddenly got “necro’d” (resurrecting an old, abandoned thread by posting in it) by people who tried to troll the original poster as a “shill.”


Depth of Extinction Reviews: Notice how most reviews, including negative ones, were from late September and early October. Only one review has surfaced, so far, after the fiasco. It’s from a YouTuber who did a video commentary.
Hilariously, there was also a particular YouTube channel trying to cash in on the controversy. Checking out the reviews for Depth of Extinction, you’ll notice that there have been very few reviews in the past weeks. There was a new one that popped up — a negative review — from YouTuber Sid Alpha (83,000 subscribers). Sid Alpha played the game for only 0.6 hours which allowed him to leave a negative review. That Steam review, however, just links to his YouTube channel.

In another topic, a random user who’s never posted at all in the Depth of Extinction page claimed that threads discussing the controversy were being deleted — even though such topics still exist. That user then happily linked to the same YouTube video.


The only negative review recently comes from a YouTuber who’s played 0.6 hours and wanted to promote a video on his channel concerning the controversy.

Also, it seems that even though Dorkoski mentioned having accepted the apology and moving on from the issue at large, the recent discussions and coverage may have sparked him to revisit the experience. This is in spite of not having partaken in many discussions about the game since the matter was resolved during the first week of October. You can see his comment in the lower-right of the picture below.


Depth of Extinction Steam discussions

Late Reaction To Late News
It does make you wonder how outrage easily seeps in conversations. Given that the matter looks to have been resolved between the two parties involved, what we’re seeing now is “a late reaction to late news.”

From a simple conclusion with Dorkoski stating: “I did not like what happened but apology accepted; no worries, all good,” we suddenly have random users chiming in three weeks later to say: “I’m doing this for a cause! I’m doing this to increase accountability for the benefit of the gaming community!” It’s strange and fascinating to behold.

Remember Total War: Rome 2? Female generals were added back in March with little fanfare. Then, a Creative Assembly representative told players in August: “If you don’t like it, you can mod them out.” Nobody batted an eye until September when Total War: Rome 2 was suddenly getting review bombed because of “Creative Assembly’s agenda to have more women in games.” That was over a month after the CA rep’s response!

That’s the basics of outrage culture: reacting suddenly to something you overheard without any care about how long ago it was. It just made you react, and therefore that reaction has to be expressed online.

In the case of Depth of Extinction, we have this timeline:

• October 5 (7:02 am) = Ryan Dorkoski posts a topic about his beta key revocation.
• October 5 (8:40 am) = HOF Studios apologizes and provides the key. Dorkoski accepts the apology. Dorkoski edited his original post to reflect the resolution at around 11:00 am.
• October 20 = An article was published regarding the situation from October 5. This was subsequently posted on Reddit, which caused a controversy among users.
• October 21 = Another article was published wherein HOF Studios made a public apology to anyone who may have been upset; this was also posted on Reddit.
• These past couple of days, many users were outraged by an issue from October 5 that had been swiftly resolved in less than two hours.

Controversy Creates Cash And Negativity Bias
Outrage culture has become the norm in today’s inter-connected world. Controversies and scandals generate views, clicks, and, naturally, ad revenue, simply because these news bits pique emotions and interests.

In psychology, we have what we call “Negativity Bias.” That’s how we, as humans, are wired to be more affected by something negative as opposed to something equally positive. There’s a reason why you might find yourself reading or reacting more to “bad news,” while at the same time leaving just a “like” or a “heart” to something adorable. That’s how Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and other platforms proliferate. Outside of cute kitten GIFs, social media tends to rely on making you feel offended about something. And that offense may last for a short while until you find something else to be offended by.

Because of the influence of rapid-fire information, consumed readily and heartily by the masses, there is little time for introspection. Conversations devolve into name-calling, grandstanding, virtue signalling, hashtags, or memes. YouTube critics succeeded over the years because of a platform that gives random people a voice. And, more often than not, an angry or vocal slant tends to attract audiences. Remember how people think “reality TV is trash,” and yet there are those who can’t help but have their eyes glued to the drama?

Gaming discussions have also become partisan simply because many users are so wrapped up in online outrage that the middle ground does not exist anymore. It creates an “us-versus-them” environment. As psychologists have noted: “Outrage is contagious. It gives us pleasure. It assures us of our moral superiority. Our disapproval proves how distant we are from what we condemn.”

We seek and crave the validation of our peers who are also angered by something. We need to find a means to satisfy our moral indignation.



Lack Of Empathy And Narcissism
Which brings us to our next point. According to research studies, the influence of the internet and social media has actually led to a drastic decrease in empathy in the younger generation. Conversely, narcissistic behavior and public shaming were on the rise. These have been the trends in the past decade or so owing to the degree of online interactions.

When you remove the social cues and general face-to-face interaction, all you’re left with are fonts and emojis. Many forget the individual behind the monitor or the one receiving the tweet. People are just wrapped up in their virtual selves.

There’s a reason why you might notice comments such as:

• “I don’t feel any remorse for these people.”
• “Serves them right!”
• “I hope they fire so-and-so employee!”

As we’ve known since the late-90s, the internet is the wild west when it comes to human behavior. In most cases, people who lash out or react vehemently online would never have the same disposition in a real-life setting. The anonymity affords users the capability to react in ways that they never could in any face-to-face scenario. Users essentially become judge, jury, and executioner with the social media tools at their disposal.

In short: The internet wants people to feel sorry if they did something wrong. But, oftentimes, the internet also never planned to forgive you in the first place.

Check out this TED Talk from journalist Jon Ronson about the power of social media, how easily people can abuse it, and how it’s become the norm for people to shame those who make mistakes. Watch a breakdown of cascading outraged reactions when someone messed up on Twitter:


Psychology Babble
If you’re wondering why I felt the need to discuss the matter, it’s because I’m a psychology graduate. Prior to starting a small business and finding my way into the gaming industry as a journalist, I’ve held jobs in customer service, retail, human resources, and social services. I’ve dealt with people on a regular basis, as that’s part of the jobs I’ve held for the past decade and a half.

One of the key trends I’ve noticed over the years is how users have become extremely vindictive and vehement in online dealings. You might see an angry customer berate a service crew member in a fast food chain, and you would roll your eyes at how audacious that person is acting — it’s not how you’d want to behave in real-life. And yet, when you’re online, you might be someone who regularly berates community managers or moderators for various games.

The Depth of Extinction fiasco mirrors that same trend. Someone screwed up and made a mistake. The aggrieved party has accepted their apology. Everyone moved on, or so we thought. The moment the story broke on the internet, everyone loses their minds and calls for heads to roll.

The developer of Depth of Extinction came forward to mention how “one negative review” affected them emotionally and psychologically. Ironically, that led the internet to react in ways that would be emotionally and psychologically taxing. All the while, users tried to justify this with phrases such as: “We just want accountability,” “we want the developer to regain our trust,” “we want justice,” “we’re just looking out for fellow gamers/consumers.”

There’s even one particular gem where a user compared the idea of “forgiving an individual developer” with “how we ended up with conglomerates like EA or the FCC.”

I’d like to humor you by stating that it’s possible for someone to react vehemently to this article if only because it analyzes human behavior. After all, people want to be free to act the way they want to. If you try and rationalize that, you could suddenly be asked to step down your high horse or to stop acting so smugly. This, oddly enough, might come from upstanding citizens who want wrongdoers to pay for their mistakes further.

In short, most people don’t want their emotions to be rationalized. After all, how can their moral convictions be scrutinized under a microscope when they believe themselves to be good, kind, and upstanding folk, right?



How Far Will Outrage Culture Take You?
We have to ask: “How far will outrage culture take you?”

• In Rome, gladiatorial battles and executions were needed to sate the appetite of the masses.
• In Medieval times, villagers jeered, spat, and threw dung at prisoners as they made their walk of shame.
• Women who committed adultery had their heads shaved or had to wear rags as they were dragged through the streets.

Humanity has long thrived on feeling vindicated — that those who are “beneath us” must suffer shame and ridicule further. There’s an incessant need to destroy and emotionally break those who do not adhere to subjective social standards. In short, people need a punching bag because it makes them feel good about themselves.

In today’s ever-connected world, no matter how far we’ve come technologically as a species, we are still that same mob that’s “out for blood.” The only differences this time around are that we’re throwing tweets instead of stones, we’re bringing out mobile phones instead of pitchforks, and we’re yelling as loud as possible via upvotes.

Like a twisted variation of Emerson’s quote: What if there are people who feel that “every minute they remain angry gives them peace of mind?”

 

[Latelistener]

Reminds me of the situation with Dead State a bit, except Annie gone full rampage and never apologized, subsequently destroying the last bits of reputation Double Bear had after a horrible release.

There always will be people who won't like what you created and they do not obliged to do so. Some devs should grow a spine.

 

[newtmonkey]

Jesus. These guys can burn for all I care. Removing a game from a customer's library cuz of a negative review is simply beyond the pale.

 

[Beowulf]

Wow, what a train-wreck it turned out to be.

 

[Kruno]

That killed any chance of me buying the game.

 

[Galdred]

I didn't even know devs could do this on Steam, has anyone told Cleve?

Actually, that was a loophole: you cannot do this if the game was purchased on Steam, but it was purchased on Itch.io which granted the buyer a beta Steam Key.
The beta key might have been an error (if it granted a plain steam key, it would not have been revokable either).
So the developer could revoke the beta key at any time (because revoking is for games you beta test freely, so that the activation expires after the beta not games you purchased on early access on other platforms).

 

[thesheeep]

There always will be people who won't like what you created and they do not obliged to do so. Some devs should grow a spine.

I can understand it, though.

When you did invest years of your life and some guy comes along and just shits on it, you get triggered. I'd call that normal. A spine wouldn't be enough to keep most people from getting angry, it would have to be a Wolverine style reinforced spine.
It was a mistake, no doubt, and he admitted it and apologized.

I actually agree with the article that this really is a lot of news and outrage about nothing. This should have been over the day it was actually resolved.
Instead, we do have these people who are always looking for some kind of crusade to latch on to.

 

[Latelistener]

When you did invest years of your life and some guy comes along and just shits on it, you get triggered. I'd call that normal. A spine wouldn't be enough to keep most people from getting angry, it would have to be a Wolverine style reinforced spine.

You need to understand that you can't do anything about it and your rage will only worsen the situation. You can't make everyone like it, even if it's a recognized piece of art.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Not currently sold on Steam.
When did that happen?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Not currently sold on Steam.
When did that happen?

Never ?
As far as i can tell, it's still there.

Another storm in a teacup ...
Although it was a terrible move from the dev with a negative commercial impact, i prefer someone acting impulsively but able to see his mistakes, apologize and repair them rather than a retard removing users comments, banning them from steam forums and sending pictures of him lifting his dick in a gym.

But that's just me, i guess.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Never ?
As far as i can tell, it's still there.

Gamepage is there, but from what I see only soundtrack can be bought currently.

 

[Galdred]

Never ?
As far as i can tell, it's still there.

Gamepage is there, but from what I see only soundtrack can be bought currently.

Here go my hopes of the game ever getting fixed

 

[lightbane]

The game can still be bought at GOG, for what's worth.
Also, I remember reading that Steam allowed devs to mass-cancel keys, in specific cases.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Gamepage is there, but from what I see only soundtrack can be bought currently.

My bad, didn't realize it was just soundtracks.

Still, about fixes :

HOF Studios [développeur] 1 nov. à 15h28

We are still working on the game but have just fallen a little behind schedule. I’ll try to post an update when I have something concrete.