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The Odd Case of Underworld-Likes

Max Heap

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
617
Hey codex,

here is a question: I think it is generally agreed upon that Ultima Underworld was a pretty great game.
How come there are no other games like it? Why are first person dungeon crawlers (that aren't blobbers) so rare?

There is of course UU2, which was already a bit different but still a good "dungeon simulator" and then there was Arx Fatalis.
But that's pretty much it. Why? It's been over 15 years since Arx!
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,052
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Elder Scrolls can arguably be called an UU clone in its original incarnation. Arena was definitely inspired by UU.

But there are no Elder Scrolls clones either, or at least not very many, despite the series' popularity.

There were other single-character freeform-movement first person RPGs in the mid 90s but they were shit so nobody remembers them.

Amulets and Armor is a title I checked out once but it's crap.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
level generation algorithms

It can't be close to Ultima Underworld unless it has hand-crafted levels.
Look, I'm the last person who'd praise procedural level generation. Usually (as in, in every other game), it's a huge turn-off for me. But in Unexplored it's just that good. It generates a branching dungeon with puzzles, multy-level quests, interesting ecosystems and tons of other stuff that plays better than some manually designed games.
 

ColCol

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
1,731
Try Unexplored. Granted, it's top-down and a roguelite, but its badass level generation algorithms make it the closest thing to UW in ages.


This. So much this. Felt like Ultima U. Also some of the best randomly generated dungeons.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,867
:necro:

I was recently looking at pnp underworld D&D and it got me wondering how many actual UNDERWORLD games are there? What constitutes an actual underworld and not just a dungeon or megadungeon? Should the underworld be cavernesque? How often should pieces of civilization be found? Do Hollow Earths with or W/o light count? Megadungeons in addition?

And maybe the biggest question: rando algorithm, hand-crafted, or mixed?

And should you feel hopelessly lost where the game gives you a huge case of panic and claustrophobia?
 

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,939
Location
SADAT HQ
:necro:

I was recently looking at pnp underworld D&D and it got me wondering how many actual UNDERWORLD games are there? What constitutes an actual underworld and not just a dungeon or megadungeon? Should the underworld be cavernesque? How often should pieces of civilization be found? Do Hollow Earths with or W/o light count? Megadungeons in addition?

And maybe the biggest question: rando algorithm, hand-crafted, or mixed?

And should you feel hopelessly lost where the game gives you a huge case of panic and claustrophobia?

What constitutes an actual underworld and not just a dungeon or megadungeon?
When there's people living down there.

Should the underworld be cavernesque? How often should pieces of civilization be found?
Probably and very often. Much like how there is wilderness in between settlements on the overworld, there would be cavern networks in the underworld.

Do Hollow Earths with or W/o light count?
What is that? Are you asking whether or not there should be light underground?

And maybe the biggest question: rando algorithm, hand-crafted, or mixed?
Handcrafted pls.

And should you feel hopelessly lost where the game gives you a huge case of panic and claustrophobia?
No.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,687
Location
Perched on a tree
Look, I'm the last person who'd praise procedural level generation. Usually (as in, in every other game), it's a huge turn-off for me. But in Unexplored it's just that good. It generates a branching dungeon with puzzles, multy-level quests, interesting ecosystems and tons of other stuff that plays better than some manually designed games.

I was almost sold, then, I followed the link provided above and the cartoony art-style and pastel color palette are absolutely disgusting.
On top of this, UI and icons is flash game level, i remember playing some flash games with exactly the same bare-bones UI elements, not bad flash games but they're free flash games.

Graphic design is a huge part of the immersion and all of this prevents it.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,867
It isn't the first time I've seen this. I tried another game like that (bootlegged) and it drains my laptop battery like a bitch and is so boring. Relaxing music is nice but

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............

I probably wouldn't buy these unless .10-30 Cents each. Maybe...
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,867
d4fNtzpJTnQZqoFqthcGQrBCUXMS5KHER7jIQQnajZo.jpg
hw-hollow-world-diagram-adapted-original-colours.png
 

LostHisMarbles

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2021
Messages
956
What you're asking is why:

1) Precious few games manage to nail the dark, enigmatic/mysterious/foreboding setting, without edging towards or falling into the doom&gloom trap.

2) Precious few games have maps worth a damn. Let alone a PC skillset that actually makes sense within the environment you're meant to use it. Nevermind enemy NPC placement.

.. Self-evident.

Now that said, don't think it would sell well today.
- Manual? FU
- I have to think? FU
- Can't make spells without some use if my imagination? What imagination, i just googled it. FU
- Can't be a 100% caster build? FU
- I can't even aim magic at short enemy NPC, projectile impact only registers at a certain height and above? FU
And the list would go on.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,756
Do Hollow Earths with or W/o light count?
What is that? Are you asking whether or not there should be light underground?

17168.jpg
257054.jpg


The Known World / Mystara setting of Dungeons & Dragons expanded in 1990 with a Hollow World boxed set written by Aaron Allston, who had previously authored a similar setting for a different RPG system. Gravity has a center between the world's surface and the center of the world, permitting the existence of a flipped-over interior surface with an artificial sun in the world's center providing the Hollow World with light and heat. The Immortals of the setting moved creatures and, eventually, civilizations of humans and other intelligence beings into the Hollow World for preservation. Three gazetteers were produced for the three large empires of the Hollow World setting: Aztecs Azcans, Egyptians Nithians, and Greeks Milenians.

hw-northern-iciria-40-1024x741.png

hw-southern-iciria-40-1024x741.png


hwr1-sons-of-azca.jpg
hwr2-kingdom-of-nithia.jpg
8pirr7.jpg


However, this kind of Hollow World, with its own extensive surface and its own "sun", is not equivalent to a true Underworld. :M
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
2,476
I know of two obvious UU-clones:
Trapped and its sequel. I do not really know how close it is, since I tried the first one all willy nilly and it ran like crap in my Amiga emulator, probably because its the first Amiga game I played that wasn't straight out of its classic period.
However, there are a few kind of UU-inspired games:
The Towers series has some obvious influence, though it starts out much closer to Dungeon Master.
Shadowcaster, published by Origin, developed by Raven Software and using the Wolfenstein engine, plays surprising lot like UU. Now, I should follow that up with, if it was an action game, its not really as smart of a game as UU. It completely lacks the talking, the advanced spell system, and is more rigidly gridded. YMMV if its actually what you want.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,867
Closer to say Anvil if Dawn I guess. Let's refresh my memory.


edit.... ok. NO. Not like AOD.
I can relate to killing plants with my hands though.
 
Last edited:

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,867
I'm straying but all this lost worlds has dino on my brain:
10002101-768x1096.jpg

dinou.png

idKoDzVheQ-GksD4wusZ7PNJjgsMr5MSFgQb4HzExIA2RVthFtkLDQjTW49YC7K8H_2XVABbhrF3LHRuj2e-wfd_BuKIPx53gVjtHbWm7-Gd-lywQmOpYSCgRWSu2AdHD5mRM4I5Ew=s0

Brunettes love to show off their assets.

Bah just Kurt butt here.... no one wants to see that.
latest
 

LostHisMarbles

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2021
Messages
956
Speaking of UU-like games, this is kinda how i found me back here..
(you never leave)

Monomyth sounds tempting. And what update posts he makes, they sure look promising.
Haven't run a game for years, don't even have a discrete GPU anymore, but .. the dangers of continuing to lurk here i guess.
Saw what he's doing and something ticked.

If i'm half the man i think i am, i'll leave it be, potential masterpiece that it may be notwithstanding.
* Always shocking how far nostalgia can take you.
 

Rincewind

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
2,427
Location
down under
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Trapped and its sequel. I do not really know how close it is, since I tried the first one all willy nilly and it ran like crap in my Amiga emulator, probably because its the first Amiga game I played that wasn't straight out of its classic period.

That's a *great* find, never heard of them. Since it's a very late Amiga game (1996), it is certain they wrote it with an accelerator board in mind. For such games it's best to just use a A1200 + 030 setup, then crank up the CPU clock in the emulation settings to 50 MHz or higher (yes, 040 or 060 would be better on real hardware, but they're not emulated that well; the best advice is to always stick with 020/030 for late Amiga games).
 

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