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D&D alignments, how do they work?

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
Chaotic doesn't mean retarded, badly-considered or impulsive. Not necessarily. It simply means that the character is willing to do whatever they have to in order to achieve their goals (which may be of a good, neutral or evil nature).

A chaotic good character could, in theory, spend years plotting and scheming to dethrone an evil ruler, only to abandon the country once the deed is done and continue their adventures. It's not that they are not thinking their decisions through, they're simply being true to their nature of doing whatever feels right by whatever means they wish to do so.
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
forget tolerance (Good concept), .

:whatho:

Stopped to read here: Lawful Good is the Angel who blinded the people who tried to Sodomize him in Sodom no some soy boy cuck who offers rapefugees his house, bank account and wife. There is no goodness without just order, fair law and natural hierarchy in RL as those chaotic good types (honest reformers, socialists and anarchists) end up as blind pawns of (((ruinous powers))).

Tolerance btw is not even one of four cardinal virtues:

Cardinal Virtues

The four principal virtues upon which the rest of the moral virtues turn or are hinged.

Those who recite the Divine Office find constantly recurring what seems to be the earliest instance of the word cardinal as applied to the virtues. St. Ambrose, while trying to identify the eight Beatitudes recorded by St. Matthew with the four recorded by St. Luke, makes use of the expression: "Hic quattuor velut virtutes amplexus est cardinales". A little later we find cardinal employed in like manner by St. Augustine (Common of Many Martyrs, third nocturn, second series; also Migne, P.L., XV, 1653; St. Thomas, Summa Theol., I-II.79.1 ad 1). That St. Jerome also uses the term is a statement which rests on a treatise not written by him, but published among his works; it is to be found in Migne, P.L., XXX, 596.

The term cardo means a hinge, that on which a thing turns, its principal point; and from this St. Thomas derives the various significations of the virtues as cardinal, whether in the generic sense, inasmuch as they are the common qualities of all other moral virtues, or in the specific sense, inasmuch as each has a distinct formal object determining its nature. Every moral virtue fulfils the conditions of being well judged, subserving the common good, being restrained within measure, and having firmness; and these four conditions also yield four distinct virtues.

The fourfold system
The origin of the fourfold system is traceable to Greek philosophy; other sources are earlier, but the Socratic source is most definite. Among the reporters of Socrates, Xenophon is vague on the point; Plato in "The Republic" puts together in a system the four virtues adopted later, with modifications by St. Thomas. (In "The Laws", Bk. I, 631, Plato recurs to his division: "Wisdom is the chief and leader: next follows temperance; and from the union of these two with courage springs justice. These four virtues take precedence in the class of divine goods".) Wishing to say what justice is, the Socratic Plato looked for it in the city-state, where he discovered four classes of men. Lowest was the producing class—the husbandmen and the craftsmen; they were the providers for the bodily needs, for the carnal appetites, which require the restraint of temperance (sophrosúne). Next came the police or soldier class, whose needful virtue was fortitude (’andreía). In this pair of cardinal virtues is exhibited a not very precise portion of Greek psychology, which the Scholastics have perpetuated in the division of appetites as concupiscible and irascible, the latter member having for its characteristic that it must seek its purpose by an arduous endeavour against obstacles. This is a Scholastic modification of tò ’epithumetikòn and tó thumoeidés, neither of which are rational faculties, while they are both amenable to reason (metà lògou); and it is the latter of them especially which is to help the reason, as leading faculty (tò ‘egemonikón), to subdue the concupiscence of the former. This idea of leadership gives us the third cardinal virtue, called by Plato sophía and philosophía, but by Aristotle phrónesis, the practical wisdom which is distinguished from the speculative. The fourth cardinal virtue stands outside the scheme of the other three, which exhaust the psychological trichotomy of man; tò ’epiphumetikón, tò thumoeidés, tò logikón. The Platonic justice of the "Republic", at least in this connexion, is the harmony between these three departments, in which each faculty discharges exactly its own proper function without interfering in the functions of the others. Obviously the senses may disturb reason; not so obviously, yet clearly, reason may disturb sense, if man tries to regulate his virtues on the principles proper to an angel without bodily appetites. In this idea of justice, viz., as concordant working of parts within the individual's own nature, the Platonic notion differs from the Scholastic, which is that justice is strictly not towards self, but towards others. Aristotle, with variations of his own, describes the four virtues which Plato had sketched; but in his "Ethics" he does not put them into one system. They are treated in his general discussion, which does not aim at a complete classification of virtues, and leaves interpreters free to give different enumerations.

The Latins, as represented by Cicero, repeated Plato and Aristotle: "Each man should so conduct himself that fortitude appear in labours and dangers: temperance in foregoing pleasures: prudence in the choice between good and evil: justice in giving every man his own [in suo cuique tribuendo]" (De Fin., V, xxiii, 67; cf. De Offic., I, ii, 5). This is a departure from the idea prominent in Platonic justice, and agrees with the Scholastic definition. It is a clearly admitted fact that in the inspiration of Holy Scripture the ministerial author may use means supplied by human wisdom. The Book of Wisdom is clearly under Hellenic influence: hence one may suppose the repetition of the four Platonic virtues to be connected with their purpose. In Wis., viii, 5, 6, 7, occur sophía or phrónesis, dikaiosúne, sophrosúne, ’andreía. The same list appears in the apocryphal IV Mach., v, 22, 23, except that for sophía is put e’usébeia. Philo compares them to the four rivers of Eden.

Doctrine of St. Thomas
St. Thomas (Summa Theol., I-II, Q. lxi, aa. 2 and 4) derives the cardinal virtues both from their formal objects or the perceived kinds of rational good which they generally seek, and from the subjects, or faculties, in which they reside and which they perfect. The latter consideration is the more easily intelligible. In the intellect is prudence; in the will is justice; in the sensitive appetites are temperance restraining pleasure, and fortitude urging on impulses of resistance to fear which would deter a person from strenuous action under difficulties; also checking the excesses of foolhardy audacity, as seen in some who gratuitously courted martyrdom in times of persecution. On the side of the formal object, which in all cases is rational good, we have the four specific variations. The rational good as an object for the action of intellect demands the virtue of prudence; inasmuch as the dictate of prudence is communicated to the will for exertion in relation to other persons, there arises the demand for justice, giving to every man his due. So far the actions are conceived; next come the passions: the concupiscible and the irascible. The order of objective reason as imposed on the appetite for pleasures demands the virtue of temperance; as imposed on the appetite which is repelled by fear-inspiring tasks, it demands fortitude. St. Thomas found four cardinal virtues in common recognition and he tried to give a systematic account of the group as far as it admitted of logical systematization. In so doing he naturally looked to the faculties employed and to the objects about which they were employed. He found it convenient to regard the action of reason, prudence, and the two passions of the sensitive appetite, lust and fear, as internal to the agent; while he regarded the action of the will as concerned with right order in regard to conduct towards others. As one exponent puts it: "Debitum semper est erga alterum: sed actus rationis et passiones interiores sunt: et ideo prudentia quæ perficit rationem, sicut fortitudo et temperantia quæ regulant passiones, dicuntur virtutes ad nos." Thus with three virtues ad intra and one ad extra were established four cardinal virtues, contrary to Plato's scheme, in which all were directly ad intra, referring to the inner harmony of man.

If it be urged against the cardinal virtues being moral, that all moral virtues are in the rational will and only justice among the four cardinal is so seated, St. Thomas replies that prudence is practical, not speculative; and so it has regard to the will, while the two passions, the concupiscible and the irascible, receiving in their own department, at the dictate of reason, the improving qualifications or habits which are the effects of repeated acts, are thereby rendered more docile to the will, obeying it with greater promptness, ease, and constancy. Thus each cardinal virtue has some seat in the will, direct or indirect. At times Aristotle seems to imply what the Pelagians taught later, that the passions may be trained so as never to offer temptation; as a fact, however, he fully allows elsewhere for the abiding peccability of man. Those whose passions are more ordered may in this regard have more perfect virtue; while from another standpoint their merit is less than that of those who are constant in virtue by heroic resistance to perpetual temptations of great strength.

In the above account of the doctrine propounded by St. Thomas, a number of his nice abstractions are left out: for example, he distinguishes prudence as concerned with means to good ends, which it belongs to another virtue to assign: "ad prudentiam pertinet non præstituere finem virtutibus moralibus, sed de his disponere quæ sunt ad finem." He relies on synderesis, or synteresis, for primary, universal principles; on wisdom for knowledge of the Divine; on counsel for judging what prudence is to dictate; on what he calls "the potential parts" of the cardinal virtues for filling up the description of them in various departments under cognate names, such as appear in the relation of modesty, meekness, and humility to temperance.

The theological virtues are so thoroughly supernatural that to treat them as they might appear in the order of nature is not profitable: with the cardinal virtues the case is different. What has been said above about them makes no reference to grace: the remarks are confined to what may belong simply to natural ethics. There is a gain in the restriction, for a natural appreciation of them is exceedingly useful, and many characters suffer from a defective knowledge of natural goodness. St. Thomas introduces the discussion of cardinal virtues also as gifts, but much that he says omits reference to this aspect.

The cardinal virtues unite the intellectual element and the affective. Much has been said recently of heart going beyond intellect in virtue; but the cardinal virtues, while concerned with the appetitive or affective parts, place prudence as the judge over all. Similarly the theological virtues place faith as the foundation of hope and charity. There is thus a completeness about the system which may be asserted without the pretence that essentially these four virtues must be marked off as a quartet among virtues. If the Greeks had not written, perhaps the Church would not have had exactly this fourfold arrangement. Indeed the division of good conduct into separate virtues is not an instance of hard and fast lines. The solidarity of the virtues and their interplay must always be allowed for, while we recognize the utility of specific differentiations. Within limits the cardinal virtues may be said to be a scientifically arranged group, helpful to clearness of aim for a man who is struggling after well-ordered conduct in a disordered world, which is not prudent, just, brave, temperate.

Sources
PLATO, Republic, Bk. IV, 427-434; IDEM, Laws, Bk. I, 631; IDEM, Theætetus, 176B; ARISTOTLE, Ethics, VI, 5; V, 1; III, 7 and 10; PETER LOMBARD, Sent., Pt. III, Dist. xxxiii, with the various commentators on the text; ST. THOMAS, Summa Theol., I-II, Q. lxi; WAFFELAERT, Tractatus de Virtutibus Cardinalibus (Bruges, 1886).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03343a.htm

Justice is; Seing Tolerance as good and virtuous is one of modernist heresies.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
Not even that. So-called "newborn" demons in DnDverse is made up of souls of dastardly people or stolen souls which are corrupted into demon form. They are not "born" in the conventional sense, and do not actually come into existence with a clean slate.

Yes, that was precisely what I was saying. In answer to the question of, "how can something be individually perfectly innocent, yet an agent of Chaotic Evil."

(Demons are considered distinct individuals after all. They are just essentially evil, unlike humans, even new-born humans with a reincarnated soul who was a sadistic axe murderer in a previous lifetime.)
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Assassinating the king? Neutral Good at best.

What if you manage to find a legal loophole to justify it?
Finding legal loopholes is defined as a Lawful Evil thing, funnily enough. A Lawful Good character will try to work to the spirit of the law.

But the question is, which law? The law of the land, or Cosmic Law?

If the two are in conflict, the Lawful Good character should go with Cosmic Law every time.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Not even that. So-called "newborn" demons in DnDverse is made up of souls of dastardly people or stolen souls which are corrupted into demon form. They are not "born" in the conventional sense, and do not actually come into existence with a clean slate.

Yes, that was precisely what I was saying. In answer to the question of, "how can something be individually perfectly innocent, yet an agent of Chaotic Evil."

(Demons are considered distinct individuals after all. They are just essentially evil, unlike humans, even new-born humans with a reincarnated soul who was a sadistic axe murderer in a previous lifetime.)
No. What I am saying is that demons are "born" not being perfectly innocent. Mortals are. Therefore, your comparison (between lizardfolk and demons) does not hold water. A Paladin will fall if he goes and murders lizardfolk willy-nilly, but not when he kills demons.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Assassinating the king? Neutral Good at best.

What if you manage to find a legal loophole to justify it?
Finding legal loopholes is defined as a Lawful Evil thing, funnily enough. A Lawful Good character will try to work to the spirit of the law.

But the question is, which law? The law of the land, or Cosmic Law?

If the two are in conflict, the Lawful Good character should go with Cosmic Law every time.
You are conflating Lawful with Good and putting ultimate emphasis on Law. That is exactly what I said in my opening post on why Lawful Good is rarely played well.
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
892
D&D Alignment has always been objective. At least in the sense that your motivation and reasons don’t matter nearly as much as what invisible gods in other dimensions think of your actions. Because they are the ones that judge your actions, not you or mortal authorities.

So it’s technically possible to do good things for BAD reasons and still get into a good aligned plane when you die. Likewise, you can accidentally cause lots of bad things to happen despite the best of intentions and wind up in an evil plane. Alignment is just a dick like that.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You are conflating Lawful with Good and putting ultimate emphasis on Law. That is exactly what I said in my opening post on why Lawful Good is rarely played well.

What you’re missing is that Cosmic Law is inherently, essentially Good. It is what Celestia is made of. There can be no emphasising one over the other as both are inextricably entwined.

You are a good example of why D&D alignments are so often DMed so badly. You have a superficial understanding of it, but are completely blind to its deeper meaning.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,976
Pathfinder: Wrath
D&D Alignment has always been objective. At least in the sense that your motivation and reasons don’t matter nearly as much as what invisible gods in other dimensions think of your actions. Because they are the ones that judge your actions, not you or mortal authorities.

So it’s technically possible to do good things for BAD reasons and still get into a good aligned plane when you die. Likewise, you can accidentally cause lots of bad things to happen despite the best of intentions and wind up in an evil plane. Alignment is just a dick like that.

This would mean that alignment is not a part of you as a person. You might be the most virtuous person in the world, but still end up in the Hells because you aren't omniscient and didn't know some of your actions would have bad consequences. This seems pretty fucked up and ripe for Avellone style deconstruction.
 

111111111

Guest
You are conflating Lawful with Good and putting ultimate emphasis on Law. That is exactly what I said in my opening post on why Lawful Good is rarely played well.

What you’re missing is that Cosmic Law is inherently, essentially Good. It is what Celestia is made of. There can be no emphasising one over the other as both are inextricably entwined.

You are a good example of why D&D alignments are so often DMed so badly. You have a superficial understanding of it, but are completely blind to its deeper meaning.

most dms Ive played with acknowledge the alignments for like the first 16 minutes but don't really give a shit later on.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
most dms Ive played with acknowledge the alignments for like the first 16 minutes but don't really give a shit later on.

Entirely as it should be. Alignment should only matter if it’s a significant aspect of the campaign and has a cosmic dimension. Otherwise it’s best left to a mechanical footnote.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
D&D Alignment has always been objective. At least in the sense that your motivation and reasons don’t matter nearly as much as what invisible gods in other dimensions think of your actions. Because they are the ones that judge your actions, not you or mortal authorities.
In practice, that objective standard is how your DM sees it. You'll learn soon enough.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
most dms Ive played with acknowledge the alignments for like the first 16 minutes but don't really give a shit later on.

Entirely as it should be. Alignment should only matter if it’s a significant aspect of the campaign and has a cosmic dimension. Otherwise it’s best left to a mechanical footnote.
As long as the players don't do anything really crass that quite obviously is completely against the type they play, it shouldn't matter in a campaign. If you start nitpicking their choices, they become too cautious, which may suck all fun out of the game.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,537
most dms Ive played with acknowledge the alignments for like the first 16 minutes but don't really give a shit later on.

Entirely as it should be. Alignment should only matter if it’s a significant aspect of the campaign and has a cosmic dimension. Otherwise it’s best left to a mechanical footnote.
As long as the players don't do anything really crass that quite obviously is completely against the type they play, it shouldn't matter in a campaign. If you start nitpicking their choices, they become too cautious, which may suck all fun out of the game.
:littlemissfun:
 

Prime Junta

Guest
This would mean that alignment is not a part of you as a person. You might be the most virtuous person in the world, but still end up in the Hells because you aren't omniscient and didn't know some of your actions would have bad consequences. This seems pretty fucked up and ripe for Avellone style deconstruction.

D&D ethics is primarily intentionalist, not consequentialist, with that cosmic dimension. I.e. if you were acting out of Good motives and in tune with the Cosmic Good, but evil nevertheless resulted (probably due to interference by agents of Cosmic Evil), then that would not doom your soul (nor cause a paladin to fall).

There's a parallel that might make it easier to understand. Consider a modern-day religious zealot who believes that (1) his religion's law is God's Law and (2) he, or his religious leader, has a divinely inspired understanding of it. Such a zealot would strive to act in accordance with God's Law in every situation, regardless of imperfect or downright Satanic human laws.

D&D ethics is like that, except that there really is a universally acknowledged Cosmic Law (although being what it is, it cannot be fully expressed in any human terms; even the most just laws enacted by the wisest and most benevolent of kings are at best a pale reflection of it), and there are ways to determine if a being or act is in accordance with it or not. That's frankly terrifying -- your religious zealot isn't just convinced he's right, he's objectively and demonstrably right. In those circumstances, it would be immoral to not go to any lengths needed to act in accordance with Cosmic Law -- it is the proverbial, final, ultimate Greater Good after all!
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
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You are conflating Lawful with Good and putting ultimate emphasis on Law. That is exactly what I said in my opening post on why Lawful Good is rarely played well.

What you’re missing is that Cosmic Law is inherently, essentially Good. It is what Celestia is made of. There can be no emphasising one over the other as both are inextricably entwined.

You are a good example of why D&D alignments are so often DMed so badly. You have a superficial understanding of it, but are completely blind to its deeper meaning.
You rabbit on and on about "deeper meaning" and how you have some sort of understanding about it all, but at the end of the day Celestia doesn't really exist. Your "understanding" of what Celestia is, is merely your own bias projected on to a basic framework given form by the DMG and some splatbooks.

There is no theology involved in this, there is no "deeper meaning" to alignment. Those are nothing more than the imaginations of a person trying desperately to sound more knowledgable and prestigious than he actually is.

Alignment is broadstrokes. It has to be. It is merely the mechanics of a rule in a game. There is no infinite layers to be peeled back and jumped on in an AHA! moment.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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Messages
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Scandinavia
Assassinating the king? Neutral Good at best.

What if you manage to find a legal loophole to justify it?
Finding legal loopholes is defined as a Lawful Evil thing, funnily enough. A Lawful Good character will try to work to the spirit of the law.
It makes sense. Lawful Evil often abuse the spirit of their own principles, finding loopholes. It's one of those ways a Paladin could easily end up falling, using the tenets of the faith or his order to commit evil acts, or circumventing (but not breaking) the tenets.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
Assassinating the king? Neutral Good at best.

What if you manage to find a legal loophole to justify it?
Finding legal loopholes is defined as a Lawful Evil thing, funnily enough. A Lawful Good character will try to work to the spirit of the law.
It makes sense. Lawful Evil often abuse the spirit of their own principles, finding loopholes. It's one of those ways a Paladin could easily end up falling, using the tenets of the faith or his order to commit evil acts, or circumventing (but not breaking) the teneta.
Book of Exalted Deeds spent many, MANY pages explaining just that.

Hilariously enough, even that is not enough to convince fanatics like Prime Junta what the authors are aiming for. To them, what the authors meant doesn't matter. Only what the fanatics themselves believe is true matters. And, boy, do they believe!
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You rabbit on and on about "deeper meaning" and how you have some sort of understanding about it all, but at the end of the day Celestia doesn't really exist. Your "understanding" of what Celestia is, is merely your own bias projected on to a basic framework given form by the DMG and some splatbooks.

In D&D it does. And not only that, it's the lodestar of what Lawful Good means.

There is no theology involved in this, there is no "deeper meaning" to alignment. Those are nothing more than the imaginations of a person trying desperately to sound more knowledgable and prestigious than he actually is.

In D&D there is.

There was an article in Dragon magazine some time in the 1980s, titled something like "Faerie or Poughkeepsie." It argued that many DMs lead from Poughkeepsie, meaning our everyday ethics, and consequently make continuous bad calls about alignment. Whereas they ought to be leading from Faerie – the realm where good, evil, law, or chaos aren't about what you believe or intend but quiddities in and of the multiverse.

And you, sir, are so deep in Poughkeepsie you're not even aware of Faerie.

Alignment is broadstrokes. It has to be. It is merely the mechanics of a rule in a game. There is no infinite layers to be peeled back and jumped on in an AHA! moment.

As I said, you're so blind to this aspect you're not even aware that there's anything to miss there. Only cure I know is to play. more. Planescape
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,964
You are conflating Lawful with Good and putting ultimate emphasis on Law. That is exactly what I said in my opening post on why Lawful Good is rarely played well.

What you’re missing is that Cosmic Law is inherently, essentially Good. It is what Celestia is made of. There can be no emphasising one over the other as both are inextricably entwined.

You are a good example of why D&D alignments are so often DMed so badly. You have a superficial understanding of it, but are completely blind to its deeper meaning.
You rabbit on and on about "deeper meaning" and how you have some sort of understanding about it all, but at the end of the day Celestia doesn't really exist. Your "understanding" of what Celestia is, is merely your own bias projected on to a basic framework given form by the DMG and some splatbooks.

There is no theology involved in this, there is no "deeper meaning" to alignment. Those are nothing more than the imaginations of a person trying desperately to sound more knowledgable and prestigious than he actually is.

Alignment is broadstrokes. It has to be. It is merely the mechanics of a rule in a game. There is no infinite layers to be peeled back and jumped on in an AHA! moment.
You know nothing Jon Snow. The discussions of meaning of alignment in D&D is fun time of many loreseekers through the universe of Internetia and even before that since D&D existed.
You can fill more philosophy books with these rants than all the collected works of all the philosophers of ancient times.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,484
You rabbit on and on about "deeper meaning" and how you have some sort of understanding about it all, but at the end of the day Celestia doesn't really exist. Your "understanding" of what Celestia is, is merely your own bias projected on to a basic framework given form by the DMG and some splatbooks.

In D&D it does. And not only that, it's the lodestar of what Lawful Good means.

There is no theology involved in this, there is no "deeper meaning" to alignment. Those are nothing more than the imaginations of a person trying desperately to sound more knowledgable and prestigious than he actually is.

In D&D there is.

There was an article in Dragon magazine some time in the 1980s, titled something like "Faerie or Poughkeepsie." It argued that many DMs lead from Poughkeepsie, meaning our everyday ethics, and consequently make continuous bad calls about alignment. Whereas they ought to be leading from Faerie – the realm where good, evil, law, or chaos aren't about what you believe or intend but quiddities in and of the multiverse.

And you, sir, are deep in Poughkeepsie.

Alignment is broadstrokes. It has to be. It is merely the mechanics of a rule in a game. There is no infinite layers to be peeled back and jumped on in an AHA! moment.

As I said, you're so blind to this aspect you're not even aware that there's anything to miss there. Only cure I know is to play. more. Planescape
The Book of Exalted Deeds kicks your Dragon magazine in the ass and then some. You are not even aware that the game has moved on and your lodestar no longer holds meaning.

It is for the very basic reason of heading off fanatics like you at the pass that the BoED spent much time and pages explaining why your claims of a Paladin's "correct" actions is WRONG.

I would suggest you actually read BoED rather than cry about a 1980s article in a magazine.
 

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