Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

D&D alignments, how do they work?

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,998
Btw, this discussion is much older and bigger than "What is a RPG?" one . Let me summon our own little GM Infinitron , I think this all needs to go somewhere else and let this topic be for discussion of P:KM.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
The Book of Exalted Deeds kicks your Dragon magazine in the ass and then some. You are not even aware that the game has moved on and your lodestar no longer holds meaning.

It is for the very basic reason of heading off fanatics like you at the pass that the BoED spent much time and pages explaining why your claims of a Paladin's "correct" actions is WRONG.

Try a bigger font. I'm sure you'll eventually convince someone.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
The Book of Exalted Deeds kicks your Dragon magazine in the ass and then some. You are not even aware that the game has moved on and your lodestar no longer holds meaning.

It is for the very basic reason of heading off fanatics like you at the pass that the BoED spent much time and pages explaining why your claims of a Paladin's "correct" actions is WRONG.

Try a bigger font. I'm sure you'll eventually convince someone.
I don't have to convince anyone. I only have to show you are wrong. Whether they want to read the evidence is up to them.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,699
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
The Book of Exalted Deeds kicks your Dragon magazine in the ass and then some. You are not even aware that the game has moved on and your lodestar no longer holds meaning.

It is for the very basic reason of heading off fanatics like you at the pass that the BoED spent much time and pages explaining why your claims of a Paladin's "correct" actions is WRONG.

Try a bigger font. I'm sure you'll eventually convince someone.
I don't have to convince anyone. I only have to show you are wrong. Whether they want to read the evidence is up to them.
"Show" ? By writing "WRONG" in caps and bolded and underlined? You sure have.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
The Book of Exalted Deeds kicks your Dragon magazine in the ass and then some. You are not even aware that the game has moved on and your lodestar no longer holds meaning.

It is for the very basic reason of heading off fanatics like you at the pass that the BoED spent much time and pages explaining why your claims of a Paladin's "correct" actions is WRONG.

Try a bigger font. I'm sure you'll eventually convince someone.
I don't have to convince anyone. I only have to show you are wrong. Whether they want to read the evidence is up to them.
"Show" ? By writing "WRONG" in caps and bolded and underlined? You sure have.
None so blind as he who refuse to see.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
Book of Exalted Deeds spent many, MANY pages explaining just that.
I agree, it was one of the most boring 3.x books ever.
There was really no choice. There was just too many complaints about the alignment system and especially the stigma of playing the Paladin, a core class. There were too many idiot ping-thumpers out there. The DnD guys were trying to stop that shit with the book. To people possess a modicum of common sense and experience in PnP RPGs, it had no choice but to be boring. It was telling us stuff we already knew, and was, therefore, not aimed at us.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,745
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
most dms Ive played with acknowledge the alignments for like the first 16 minutes but don't really give a shit later on.

Entirely as it should be. Alignment should only matter if it’s a significant aspect of the campaign and has a cosmic dimension. Otherwise it’s best left to a mechanical footnote.
As long as the players don't do anything really crass that quite obviously is completely against the type they play, it shouldn't matter in a campaign. If you start nitpicking their choices, they become too cautious, which may suck all fun out of the game.

Yeah, unless someone does something incredibly misaligned I tend to avoid drastic sudden alignment shifts in games I DM.

I try to give people some warning if they're starting down the alignment change route.
 
Unwanted

Micormic

Unwanted
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
939
He is listed as "lawful evil" (no idea what this is based on), so I guess he's most valuable for evil runs.
Makes sense. He's clearly principled and lives an ordered life, and he values the rule of law. But he clearly has no qualms with committing evil acts in the pursuit of his research. I like that they have someone in the game that is Lawful Evil without being a cackling villain, and can be worked with to the point where even a Paladin might end up recruiting him, never giving it a second thought, especially with all the Lawful Good "monsters are evil, die!" which is bordering on the tiresome considering that "Good" (i.e. Neutral Good) is apparently all about being nice and extra forgiving and shit to the point of retardation. Alignments in the game are generally stupid, and I have no idea what muppet was in charge of them, so it's nice to hear that it's not all bad.
This will turn into an alignment discussion, but the thing is that most people who play Lawful Good simply aren't.

Just ask a fucking SJW and it will proudly tell you that it is Lawful Good and doing whatever it takes to force you to do "good" is justified. It will believe that it is a modern day Paladin on a crusade to rid the world of "evil", "bigotry" and "hate".

That is the problem with the whole alignment thing. In DnD type games, alignments are absolutes. There are entire dimensions/planes dedicated to an alignment concept (Celestia, the Abyss, the 9 Hells, Mechanus, Pandemonium, etc.). They cannot be viewed "from a certain point of view". This is what most people don't get.

Too often, people focus on one axis and forget about everything else. People playing Lawful Good paladins, for example, too often forget the Good part of the alignment. They justify that eradicating Evil is a Good thing and therefore ping-thump is justified. WRONG! Justice is a Law concept, not a Good concept. A fanatic paladin going ping-thump is being Lawful Neutral. Forget compassion (Good concept), forget tolerance (Good concept), forget forgiveness (Good concept). Those things are rarely part of a player paladin. That is where the problem is.

Similarly with Lawful Evil. A cackling villian is Evil, yes. But is he really Lawful? Not really. Too many players worship the concept of the Joker (seen too many in other RPG forums) and think that it is "cool". So they make up some stupid rule their character follows (e.g., will not eat babies with his breakfast; lunch and dinner is fair game) and call it Lawful Evil. Why? Well, because it says so in the damned PHB. Yep, the writers of the bloody thing caused the problem in the first place. But that is not what Lawful Evil is all about. Take Mephasm. He is a Pit Fiend, basically an embodiment of Lawful Evil in DnDverse. The way he acts is very Lawful Evil. He warns you about the dangers of entering into pacts with him, he honours his deals and he will help you if it suits his purpose and plans. Even with Ammon Jerro, he warns him of the dangers of his actions. And he will stand aside and let the consequences befall you (and Ammon) if you went ahead. He isn't going to help. He fucking warned you and you still went ahead. Reap the reward, fool. No compassion, no tolerance, no forgiveness. He will extract his due as per the deal.

The problem with the alignment system is not the system. It is players wanting to be something they are not and forcing others to accept it on pain of lots of whining and bitching. This is coming from a long time DM who has seen all kinds of people trying to abuse the alignment system, some out of sheer ignorance because they are newbies, others just wanting to be something they are not, and still others trying to powergame (usually by trying to add a class that requires a non-Evil alignment when they are plainly Neutral Evil at best if not outright Chaotic Evil, and so write "Neutral Good" on their character sheet). And being a long time DM, I have plenty of creative ways to wreck their shit when they keep up their nonsense.



you're an autist
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,218
Location
Bjørgvin
I've only read the thread title, but I think it's weird that in FRUA (and probably in the Gold Box games as well) a Thief can be Lawful Neutral, but not Chaotic Good.
If I was more of an autistic aspie that fact would have tormented me no end.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
Myself & Hobo Elf were having a discussion about Druids yesterday in shoutbox & we agreed that True Neutral was by far the hardest alignment to figure out & is also the reason Druids have such a hard time fitting into most regular campaigns.

& Yet that is the one alignment that no-one here has yet even touched upon. Possibly for good reason I suspect.

My question was:

If, while on an adventure, the Druid enters a room where a Paladin is fighting an evil Mage & he had previously been given a quest to go and resolve the dispute by any means necessary, would the True Neutral Druid:

a) Kill neither
b) Kill both
c) Need to know which of the two was the most threatening to nature

Hobo replied that if the evil Mage was in the forest then his fire spells would present the greatest risk to nature, however, this doesn't cover the more normal rooms and dungeon scenarios & is another example of why it's hard to play Druids in regular campaigns.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
Druid alignment has been changed to "any neutral" (since 3.0). Much easier to play with five alignment options.
 
Last edited:

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,218
Location
Bjørgvin
True Neutral = You are not bound by manmade laws and norms, but nature's laws (like the survival of the fittest) applies.
So the Druid should let them resolve it themselves, unless there was a good reason to side with one of them.
The fire spells argument is a bit weak, since forest fires are part of nature's cycle.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,745
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Also at least by PF rules, true neutral doesn't have to be an arbiter of balance.

True neutral can just mean a character who does what seems to be a good idea to them without a particular drive towards order or chaos or good and evil.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
That was one of the better alignment choices in PF:K, where the neutral choice was to not take any side in the kobold vs. mite conflict.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
The fire spells argument is a bit weak, since forest fires are part of nature's cycle.
Only if it's caused naturally. One could see Wizardly flames as an unnatural invader. Just because forest fires are a natural part of natures cycle (and ash is very good for the soil) doesn't mean you just go around lighting them on fire all willy-nilly. You still want to try and prevent them from happening on a regular basis.
 

nikolokolus

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
4,090
Nine (and five) point alignment was a mistake. L-N-C as cosmic forces that have nothing to do with personality is how it should have been left.
 

Random

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
2,812
The fact that alignments continue to be argued about since their inception as a concept indicates that, at the very least, the concept is poorly explained and inadequately explored, if not outright just a poor abstraction that is profoundly difficult to reconcile with the ethics of the real world. From a gaming standpoint, alignment is a way of making it clear that it's A-OK to murder those orc babies since they are evil by nature, and fated to cause evil if they are allowed to grow up. Whereas, an alignment of Neutral to Good indicates you should probably not kill these creatures or individuals without a good reason. If you only examine it from the Good vs. Evil perspective, alignments are difficult to screw up and get wrong. The problem most likely lies in the Law vs. Chaos axis being tacked on to the Good vs. Evil axis.

The Lawful-Chaotic axis has always been pretty ancillary to the purpose of alignments and probably the greatest cause of all these arguments over time due to unnecessarily complicating what was intended to be a perfectly objective and abstract idea of Good vs. Evil. Order vs. Chaos is more of a feature in pagan mythologies like Ancient Greece and India, with heroes being defined by opposing what is unnatural and outside the good order of things like Heracles slaying the Lernaen Hydra who would regenerate and grow more powerful even if slain by decapitation, which goes against the natural order, thus is Chaotic. You have the villainous Titan Kronos who devoured all his children, again a great example of Chaos by violating what a father should do according to nature: raise and take care of his children. Another example would be Antigone vs. King Creon, with Antigone sacrificing herself to do what is Lawful under the laws of the gods and nature, while Creon is Chaotic and wishes to defy the way of the world and right for the dead to be buried properly. If you examine Law vs. Chaos from this angle, it becomes clear that the laws of men and mortals are by default inferior in importance and righteousness to the laws of the divine order.

Thus a Lawful individual would absolutely overthrow a despotic Evil tyrant to right the natural order and restore the laws of the gods. Heracles did so plenty of times, in fact, once restoring a wrongly exiled Spartan king to power by killing the usurper who stole the throne, and another time killing the King of Troy when he greedily reneged on a deal. Though these were kings he slew, their laws were not righteous and violated the laws of the gods, hence, they could not be obeyed by lawful folk.

Before you argue that Heracles must obviously be Chaotic due to his occasional fits of madness and temper issues, remember that Heracles is defined as a hero rather than a villain by his choices to abide by the laws of men and the gods despite the madness Hera inflicted upon him. After murdering his family, he sought penance and absolution, and accepted the punishment the gods and men chose for him to make things right, hence the Twelve Labors. Throughout his life he fought agents of Chaos and mayhem, countless monsters that preyed upon men (a grave violation of the natural order where Man is above animal), serial killers, criminals, and even murderous demigods. He tamed a herd of man-eating horses, made the Nemean Lion's pelt into a nice coat for himself, turned the Queen of the Amazons into a lovestruck and blushing maiden who wanted to marry him and give up her unnatural ways of female warriorhood, and so on. He acted as a voice of wisdom for the Argonauts, insulting them as base and lowly men when they all went to the island of the stinky women and fucked them for days on end while he stayed on the Argo yelling at them about their pathetic standards. You can analyze almost all the heroes and villains of Greek myth from a Law vs. Chaos perspective, but Heracles happens to be one of the easier examples.

But then, Law and Chaos in that perspective is basically almost a synonym for Good and Evil. Thus the Law-Chaos axis is unhelpful at best and downright detrimental at worst. One must take into account as well that the writers and designers for DnD have changed radically from edition to edition and even during editions, and one sourcebook is never going to be a definitive source on interpretation of alignments because there is no guarantee that the authors knew any better than the players of the game what alignments really stood for.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom