Colony Ship update #31 - The interface

[Vault Dweller]

No dice rolls in dialogues. You won't always get the same outcome as it is your skill that modifies the reaction.

 

[Eyestabber]

Any chance we might see "mercenaries" or "unemployed crewmen" or something aka custom npc companion generator?

 

[Elhoim]

Not sure about the aiming system. I think I prefer to select "Aimed Shot" and then choose the specific location on the enemy (or in a paperdoll a la Fallout).
The main reason for this (that I can think of right now), is that with the current system I can't see the different percentages on each body part on one screen. I would have to choose each one separately and check them out.
Sounds like a minor thing but I believe it is important.

Hover over the enemy, and press 2 to cycle through the attacks and see the changes. Since the modifiers are constant like in AoD (the same flat reduction each time), you won't even have to check at some point.

 

[Jrpgfan]

No dice rolls in dialogues. You won't always get the same outcome as it is your skill that modifies the reaction.

That's what I meant(the same outcome with the same stats/character).

Thanks. Not a big fan of dice roll in dialogue skill checks, especially because most people would simply reload and try again after a non-favorable outcome so it's kinda pointless.

 

[Goral]

It's worth noting that: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7637.msg154654.html#msg154654

Quote from: menyalin on Today at 07:46:25 am
Speaking about dialogues and design, in AoD back-end dlg design looked like a lot of pain for scripting and maintenance - did new engine eased your life on that side?

I believe it should be much more easy to handle and intuitive now. We've bought a plugin and adapted it to our needs:

 

[luj1]

Honest question, will this game not be a CYOA booklet? Genuinely interested in what the conceptual differences are.

PS I actually like AoD for what it is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Honest question, will this game not be a CYOA booklet? Genuinely interested in what the conceptual differences are.

Well, if AoD was combat + limited exploration (you could explore the world a lot more than you could explore Blackguards, for example, but a lot less than Fallout) + CYOA sequences including stealth, then the CSG is combat + stealth + exploration + CYOA sequences.

 

[Tigranes]

VD have you thought about removing colours & adding player stats? Would be interesting to hear the rationale either way.

Why not get rid of the colours, and instead have a little slot on the side of the dialogue window showing your relevant statistics (kind of like what TTON did for its whatever those magic points were called)?

There is no way the colours are not going to be confusing - it really signals to players that the green ones are the right ones to go. If you simply show the required perception, and the player's own perception, then they can make their own decisions.

The less glowing shiny things there are, the more the player is encouraged to actually read the dialogue choice and think about the conversation, instead of instantly pressing the green thing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We can certainly do that but it might end up looking even more confusing. Persuasion 3/5 - what does it mean?

Sure, green/yellow is confusing too but it's the right kind of confusion, imo. It will disappear the moment the player realizes the easiest line (which is what green means) isn't always the best.

 

[luj1]

Honest question, will this game not be a CYOA booklet? Genuinely interested in what the conceptual differences are.

Well, if AoD was combat + limited exploration (you could explore the world a lot more than you could explore Blackguards, for example, but a lot less than Fallout) + CYOA sequences including stealth, then the CSG is combat + stealth + exploration + CYOA sequences.

So basically the same, but with legit exploration this time 'round?

EDIT: and without the nausea-inducing camera? j/k

 

[Tigranes]

We can certainly do that but it might end up looking even more confusing. Persuasion 3/5 - what does it mean?

Sure, green/yellow is confusing too but it's the right kind of confusion, imo. It will disappear the moment the player realizes the easiest line (which is what green means) isn't always the best.

Will they? Let's say that I have played RPGs, even tried AOD, but have no knowledge of CS. I pick a green persuasion option, and it does not give me a great result.

I could think that maybe this particular person wasn't amenable to persuasion. I could think that the moderate success I got is actually as good as it gets. Later, I will try a yellow persuasion option, and get a good result - but that's a different NPC. Unless I reload/replay, it would take a fair while until the game gives me a good sense of what the colours mean and how I am supposed to approach the mechanic (and that's presuming that the game is really well written to show clearly the various consequences of my efforts).

I'm not worried about morons whining "but I picked green and I didn't WIN!!!". But I think it makes sense to ensure that the UI does not encourage a misreading of the mechanic where it invites the player to click the green stuff.

I'm not saying 3/5. I'm saying just have [Persuasion 3] "I'm looking for my father", and at the right side pane of the entire dialogue screen, have a little box showing your character's relevant stats for reference. Again, TTON does this on the bottom left.

The advantage of this approach is that the UI simply gives the tools necessary. The player might still be confused, but he will have a more neutral UI that gives hiim the information he needs to work it out.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not saying 3/5. I'm saying just have [Persuasion 3] "I'm looking for my father", and at the right side pane of the entire dialogue screen, have a little box showing your character's relevant stats for reference. Again, TTON does this on the bottom left.

The advantage of this approach is that the UI simply gives the tools necessary. The player might still be confused, but he will have a more neutral UI that gives hiim the information he needs to work it out.

Well, the new Torment had 3 abilities, we check most skills, stats, and reputation not just the 3 dialogue skills. Listing them would be messy.

PS. I'm not dismissing your concerns, I'm just not sure what the best solution is.

 

[luj1]

Fuck the new Torment. It has a resource mechanic by which you can pass any check.

 

[Sacred82]

One great thing about Fallout dialogue is that you had to guess the chance of success/ stat requirement per answer. Granted, many situations were pretty clear cut ("let the girl leave with me and I won't rat you out" / "surrender your operation to me and lick my boots cuz I'm the Chosen One"), but still. Don't take this little intellectual exercise - one of the few when it comes to game dialogue - away from the player.

 

[Blaine]

I favor absolutely no metagame feedback whatsoever for dialogue option selection, which is why it's great that there's a toggle. My only concern is that you have to waste man-hours figuring out how to best implement this crutch for people who need it.

Anyway, I have a genuine piece of constructive feedback to offer. I've noticed that the equipment models displayed in the UI mockup are stroked with an outer glow gradient, similar to this:

There are much more attractive ways to achieve high contrast and visibility, particularly in the context of a sleek, minimalist UI aesthetic. Highlighting the items with a glow effect is a bit gaudy. They should instead stand out against the background on their own.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

One great thing about Fallout dialogue is that you had to guess the chance of success/ stat requirement per answer..

I favor absolutely no metagame feedback whatsoever for dialogue option selection.

I tend to agree with you both, but one could argue that since the chances of success of an action (attack, block, whatever) in a fight are presented to you, the chances of stat requirement in a dialogue should also be presented to you.

 

[Sacred82]

One great thing about Fallout dialogue is that you had to guess the chance of success/ stat requirement per answer..

I favor absolutely no metagame feedback whatsoever for dialogue option selection.

I tend to agree with you both, but one could argue that since the chances of success of an action (attack, block, whatever) in a fight are presented to you, the chances of stat requirement in a dialogue should also be presented to you.

but success in combat (usually) takes way more cerebral effort than picking dialogue lines/ words

 

[Tigranes]

I'm not saying 3/5. I'm saying just have [Persuasion 3] "I'm looking for my father", and at the right side pane of the entire dialogue screen, have a little box showing your character's relevant stats for reference. Again, TTON does this on the bottom left.

The advantage of this approach is that the UI simply gives the tools necessary. The player might still be confused, but he will have a more neutral UI that gives hiim the information he needs to work it out.

Well, the new Torment had 3 abilities, we check most skills, stats, and reputation not just the 3 dialogue skills. Listing them would be messy.

PS. I'm not dismissing your concerns, I'm just not sure what the best solution is.

No, that's fair. I hope you keep the various pros & cons in mind as you iterate. Maybe a tool-tip where you can hover over your own portrait, and you get your character skills (which might be useful even if you keep the colours)? We all hate in-game tutorials, so maybe a loading screen tip?

I don't think it's a big problem, I just think it is a really cool thing CS is doing to encourage players to read the dialogue and pick the logical option instead of the highest number option, and it would be good to have every UI feature push towards the same goal.

Fuck the new Torment. It has a resource mechanic by which you can pass any check.

You realise that has nothing whatsoever to do with this conversation, right? Or do you just froth at the mouth when someone mentions a shitty game?

 

[luj1]

I just froth at mouth when someone mentions a shitty game.

 

[Blaine]

Codexers should froth at the mouth whenever someone mentions a shitty game; sadly, these days they're usually frothing at the mouth with eagerness to buy the shitty game rather than because they're offended it exists.

 

[Alpan]

I would very much prefer to have the non-qualifying conversation options be completely hidden. At least give us the option, which is what Pillars of Eternity did. There's a chasm between the experience of seeing hidden options and not seeing them, and it's called immersion.

I'm happy the tags are going to be optional, at least. Imagine playing Planescape: Torment with options like "[Intelligence 16] Unlock the Seventh Circle of Zerthimon." The experience would be diminished, lose some of its organic feel, end up being less memorable. I can't possibly quantify that difference, but can insist that whatever quality of life or replayability benefits the tags will bring is going to be overshadowed by that loss.

 

[Blaine]

Immershun ruined.

1. "That user interface is looking pretty slick."
2. "I would prefer a different user interface."
3. [Bethesda-tier Newfaggotry 37%] "The color-coded tags are great, but you should add a pop-up tooltip explaining which outcome to expect from each option."
4. [Condescending Shitposting 82%] "You should just get rid of that garbage completely, Vince. What's more important to you: sales numbers and reviews, or old skool principles?"

 

[hivemind]

remove either the numbers or the colors

 

[hivemind]

by that I mean remove the numbers

 

[Blaine]

Look, forget all this stats and numbers garbage.

What this game dearly needs is more action. Here's my mockup of an appropriate challenge test for passing a dialogue check. The player must click as close to the center of the hotspot as possible; more difficult tests will involve smaller hotspots and faster, more erratic movements.