Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[2house2fly]

One annoying thing in Deadfire is that it's ambiguous which characters even know the gods are fake. In Beast Of Winter Ydwin wonders if Rymrgand created the ice imagery of his realm or if it predated him, and the dragon boss openly discusses the gods' creation with you, while your party members are standing right there. In Seeker Slayer Survivor, you meet the ghost of an Engwithan who talks about it obliquely, and Tekehu butts in. What the hell, guys?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

They just can't seem to decide on a direction. Either double down on the spiritual themes or double down on the politics and tensions between the factions. One can set up the background for the other, but you will never have a cohesive narrative if you have two central themes that aren't even happening on the same plane of existence.

 

[Safav Hamon]

They just can't seem to decide on a direction.

This summarizes every single issue with Deadfire

 

[Agame]

one thing they could've done is to leave more things...how to put it...more vague/open for interpretation.

This is called "show, dont tell".

Its good writing 101, something that Obsidian is apparently incapable of doing.

And now they seem to be the gold standard for pc game writing (which I guess has never been great so who cares right?)

Forgotten Realms exists for no other reason than to provide a good framework for "you're sitting in a tavern"-style adventuring. That's why it succeeds despite its innocent simplicity, even if that also puts a cap on its potential for going beyond mere functionality.

Luckily we have Pathfinder now for a direct comparison, and its infinitely more compelling and fun than Pillars of Ennui. It does exactly as you say, it sets up the game and puts the gameplay first, providing a serviceably written backdrop. Simple and straightforward writing, what could be better for this style of game?

To get back to the Lore, its completely irrelevent if its good or not, if it doesnt serve the game then its doing an awful job.

It certainly doesnt help PoEs case that they were tied down with the "not-DnD setting" and a world filled with not-kobolds and not-vampires etc. This gave the whole game a veneer of desperate fan service that made me dislike it right from the start. Deadfire kind of fixed this by at least having a more unique setting.

 

[aweigh]

The best moments of PoE1 for me were gilded vale and the gloomy, depressive atmosphere coupled with the interesting backdrop of a possibly demonic/vampire Lord holding the lives of the people in his iron fist, and certain gloomier sections of Defiance Bay, specifically the insane asylum and the possible mad scientist experiments happening there.

An honorable mention also goes to Ondra's Gift segment, which when taking into account all that goes in there it was quite a memorable area with "fun" moments, lots of stuff revolving around ghosts and past misdeeds. Everything else was just generic off-brand fantasy patische not done well enough to even register.

TLDR; game was most memorable when it was attempting to be Diablo 1.

 

[Grunker]

^ +1

Beast is so steeped in the failed PoE-lore that I don't get that from it at all, unfortunately. Even if I like the initial village and the scenes with Rymrgand

It is? How?

There’s a whole area entirely dedicated to Waidwen and another entirely dedicated to the boring inquisition.

 

[Grunker]

tl;dr: if you can't do something well, do it simple

The lesson for all devs to learn here - never try.

Not really. If you do do complexity well it’s obviously infinitely better than stock fantasy like FR. Torment is a good example. (In before you move the goal posts)

 

[Prime Junta]

Not really. If you do do complexity well it’s obviously infinitely better than stock fantasy like FR. Torment is a good example. (In before you move the goal posts)

Not the point though. Is it better to try and fail, or not try at all?

I kinda sorta respect trying and failing more.

And goddamnit but Pillars does have good lore and a good setting. The bones of some really compelling fantasy gaming -- or really compelling fantasy stories -- are there. The trouble is that the games themselves not only fail to put flesh on those bones, they completely ignore them and go bake a pie instead.

Again, compare with Dragon Age. In my view the DA setting is painfully generic. However, the DA stories manage to make much better use of the setting that's there. Like, the "thing" in the DA setting is the Fade, the demons that live there, and the Darkspawn that emerge through their malign effect. And that's what the games are all about.

As I've said I never really managed to get enthusiastic about the DAs, and that's largely because of the painfully generic setting. I do have to respect the way the games build on that however. It's clearly not easy because so few studios manage to pull it off consistently; BioWare did a total faceplant with Mass Effect in that respect for example. Twice.

 

[Sacred82]

Yeah I agree that lore isn't bad, it's just used utilized poorly. Everything about gods is ambiguous and vague, but not in a good way. They seem important, powerful, irrelevant and powerless, all at the same time. And if it sounds like a contradiction, that's because it is, but that just how it all comes off. In the end it just makes you indifferent to the whole idea. Oh I have a meeting with the whole pantheon? Leave me the fuck alone, I have pirate ships to kill and loot to win.

CRPG gods are generally lazy moneybags/ resurrection buttons for the player. The vidya can't really allow for any gods beside the player.

 

[Grunker]

Not really. If you do do complexity well it’s obviously infinitely better than stock fantasy like FR. Torment is a good example. (In before you move the goal posts)

Not the point though. Is it better to try and fail, or not try at all?

I kinda sorta respect trying and failing more.

No, that's precisely not the point. That's an assessment that goes beyond the game itself, i.e. do we appreciate, considering arguments external to the actual game, the willingness to aim for more than tried and true? This I do give credit for in the review.

But in my posts here I am arguing about the game in isolation and what is actually most enjoyable to experience. And Forgotten Realms in BGs here does what it does quite efficiently, while PoE does not, leading to a worse experience despite loftier goals.

 

[Lacrymas]

The thing is, PoE's lore has the potential for some very complex narratives and themes. The problem, like I said, is Obs don't actually know what they've created or how to use it because the nu-writers aren't all that educated or well-read. They fail to see intricacies and details, and due to that, they can't develop the ideas. That's what you get when the only ideology you've been seriously exposed to is pop feminism.

 

[Prime Junta]

But in my posts here I am arguing about the game in isolation and what is actually most enjoyable to experience. And Forgotten Realms in BGs here does what it does quite efficiently, while PoE does not, leading to a worse experience despite loftier goals.

Sure, I agree with that.

I still contend the problem is Pillars story, not Pillars lore.

And to riff off Lacrymas, Obsidian is one of those studios which seem to be perpetually failing to reach the obvious potential in its games. I'd say FONV is the notable exception.

(I'm not counting the South Parks, Armored Warfares, and Dungeon Sieges that don't aim high.)

 

[pomenitul]

The amount of times this has been unfavourably discussed on this forum, and in the exact same terms, will no doubt keep future post-apocalyptic internet historians up at night for years. I look forward to the Great PoE Reassessment (Indistinguishable from Its Previous Iterations Yet Not Quite) of 2023.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think there's anything else to say about PoE. I'm enjoying* my latest playthrough with the companions, but it's almost indistinguishable from mercenaries, so whatevs. The difficulty depends a lot on your party composition, with Druid + Wizard being an insane combo that can lock down scores of mobs for extended periods of time. I breeze through encounters that were a problem last time (like the Gleaming Society) because I have a lot more CC to throw around and a lot more attacks which target various defenses. I still have Durance with me, which also lowers the difficulty by quite a lot, his attributes suck, though. Some mechanics really feel like they would've been better with a turn-based system (Deathblows being such). Some spells are absurdly broken, like Combusting Wounds. At one point, you kinda want to drop some members and go with less people. Maybe in the future I'll make a 3-man party of Wizard, Druid and Priest or something like that.


* with the usual compromises

 

[Grunker]

But in my posts here I am arguing about the game in isolation and what is actually most enjoyable to experience. And Forgotten Realms in BGs here does what it does quite efficiently, while PoE does not, leading to a worse experience despite loftier goals.

Sure, I agree with that.

I still contend the problem is Pillars story, not Pillars lore.

And to riff off Lacrymas, Obsidian is one of those studios which seem to be perpetually failing to reach the obvious potential in its games. I'd say FONV is the notable exception.

(I'm not counting the South Parks, Armored Warfares, and Dungeon Sieges that don't aim high.)

TSL comes close. MotB succeeds, albeit is hampered by the shitty game it's built on.

 

[Roguey]

Not really. If you do do complexity well it’s obviously infinitely better than stock fantasy like FR. Torment is a good example. (In before you move the goal posts)

No one begins an endeavor expecting to fail.

 

[Grunker]

Obviously. I'm not sure what your point is, it certainly doesn't seem to be related to mine.

 

[Prime Junta]

TSL comes close. MotB succeeds, albeit is hampered by the shitty game it's built on.

I disagree on both counts. It's just that the way they fail to live up to their potential has changed. Ur-Obsidian made games with brilliant ideas that shone brightly, but were kind of tedious to actually play. Nu-Obsidian makes games that are pretty enjoyable to play, but any brilliant ideas in them are buried under a ton of dumb ones. Ur-Obsidian was a continuation of Troika in fact.

In both cases they fail to be what they could be.

Again IMO, of the ones that aim high, only FONV comes close to achieving its potential.

 

[AwesomeButton]

^ +1
There’s a whole area entirely dedicated to Waidwen and another entirely dedicated to the boring inquisition.

I viewed Waidwen's war as part of the setting's history, not as part of PoE's story.

The inquisition was some footnote in PoE's story, something that happened millenia ago. Didn't care then, didn't care in Deadfire. So, I wouldn't say BoW is exactly "steeped" in PoE lore.

Lol at how everyone is repeating my comparison with DA:O and agreeing with it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Lol at how everyone is repeating my comparison with DA:O and agreeing with it.

In my country we have a saying, "sometimes even a blind chicken finds a grain."

 

[AwesomeButton]

Lol at how everyone is repeating my comparison with DA:O and agreeing with it.

In my country we have a saying, "sometimes even a blind chicken finds a grain."

Repeating and agreeing, as if it just occurred to you.

 

[Luckmann]

Lol at how everyone is repeating my comparison with DA:O and agreeing with it.

In my country we have a saying, "sometimes even a blind chicken finds a grain."

Give that saying back, mongol.

 

[Prime Junta]

Repeating and agreeing, as if it just occurred to you.

I suppose it must feel weird, the first time it happens.

 

[Lacrymas]

I killed the Adra Dragon yesterday at level 12. I see the years haven't made it any less bullshit. The only trick is surviving her opening half-screen-wide breath + wing combo where she can one-shot the entire party. She stops doing that after that opening for some reason and it's smooth sailing. The designer has been playing too many MMOs. I hope they don't make her a mega boss in PoE2 if you let her possess Falanroed, lol.

 

[Grunker]

The inquisition was some footnote in PoE's story

This really underlines how horrible PoE's story is. It's not a footnote. It's actually the only concrete centerpiece to the whole plot. We just can't know anything about it or its goals until the end, which is why there's so little about it.

But you actually follow the inquisition and get flashbacks to it constantly through the game. It's PoE's WORST moments by far. It's literally just a bunch of vague and meaningless text you have to click through, yet it's clear that substantial writing resources was put into it.