Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Fallout Boyarsky says copy protection would have helped Fallout

Latelistener

Arcane
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
2,587
Timestamped:



Is he serious? A copy protection would have helped Fallout... how exactly? No wonder Arcanum was shipped with SecuROM, but it didn't help it either, only caused more troubles for a bug-ridden game.

Okay, let's imagine a copy protection would somehow saved Fallout from illegal distribution for 30 years. Who would have bought it today on a CD even if copies were still produced?

:abyssgazer:
 

Flou

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
869
Location
Hellsinki
Is he serious? A copy protection would have helped Fallout... how exactly? No wonder Arcanum was shipped with SecuROM, but it didn't help it either, only caused more troubles for a bug-ridden game.

Okay, let's imagine a copy protection would somehow saved Fallout from illegal distribution for 30 years. Who would have bought it today on a CD even if copies were still produced?

Everyone and their mother had a pirated copy of Fallout 1&2 at my school. Kids who hardly ever talked about gaming or played anything had a copy of it. I would say piracy hurt them sales quite fucking big back in the day.
 

Latelistener

Arcane
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
2,587
He was talking about a future, where a copy protection system would somehow helped Fallout if they shipped it with it, but in reality I doubt they would have made much sales after a year since the release even if it was impenetrable.

One of the biggest myths ever created by mankind is that piracy hurts sales.

White collars created this myth, because in their minds everyone who pirated a copy:
  • Buyers who could have bought a game if it was protected well enough
  • Pirates who will never buy a game once they pirated it
In reality, we all know that:
  • Pirates will always pirate, and if your game is protected they'll wait until it's cracked or download something else
  • Someone with a common sense who pirated your game may actually buy it if they really like it
We also know that protection mechanisms rarely come cheap and they usually hurt legitimate customers. So first and foremost you should think about them, not about pirates. Sadly, most publishers and developers think about the latter group instead, which is exactly what's hurting their sales.

1mXc.png


A Denuvo lover?

 
Last edited:

conan_edw

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
847
Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath
I believe it's hard to determine if piracy affect sales in the meantime but by late 90s/early 2000s in my country almost every gaming outlet used to sell pirated copies of the games for about $1.5/$2.5 it wasn't until the ps3/xbox360 gen when we found out that games actually costed more to buy when every store started selling genuine copies so we naturally started buying them by saving more. Still god knows where every penny we spent has gone :lol:
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Piracy doesn’t hurt sales? Tell that to the music industry. Have you been to a Tower Records lately?

While Fallout might be far less influential if it had copy protection, it absolutely would’ve made Interplay more money. How is this even an open question?

You can argue that piracy is justified, or that DRM is so terrible for players that it’s not worth the tradeoff, but that it’s bad for the bottom line? That is, indeed, retarded.

“Piracy is not just good for me, it’s good for everyone!”
:happytrollboy:

Sure, buddy.
 

LizardWizard

Cipher
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
996
Everyone and their mother had a pirated copy of Fallout 1&2 at my school. Kids who hardly ever talked about gaming or played anything had a copy of it. I would say piracy hurt them sales quite fucking big back in the day.

Copy protection wasn't going to save Interplay

Everyone and their mother having a copy and talking about this sweet Fallout IP was a boon if anything.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
More hoops I have to jump through less likely I am to buy your game. Think I bought Fallout three times on disc, once on its own, once twinned wi F2, and once in a special bundle wi F2 and Torment, oh and once on gog. Doubt i'd have done that if I had to piss around wi punish the customer software, or if ex hadn't taken me old comp and everything else. Bitch.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,809
Piracy doesn’t hurt sales? Tell that to the music industry.
People buy things they like. Songs and albums people want to listen to again and again still sell millions of copies.

it absolutely would’ve made Interplay more money.

Eh, so what. Baldur's Gate made Interplay significantly more money than Fallout and it didn't do them any good. Black Isle was the one thing Interplay had that was actually turning a profit, but making slightly more of one wasn't going to hold up against the massive losses elsewhere.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Piracy doesn’t hurt sales? Tell that to the music industry.
People buy things they like. Songs and albums people want to listen to again and again still sell millions of copies.

it absolutely would’ve made Interplay more money.

Eh, so what. Baldur's Gate made Interplay significantly more money than Fallout and it didn't do them any good. Black Isle was the one thing Interplay had that was actually turning a profit, but making slightly more of one wasn't going to hold up against the massive losses elsewhere.

Someone is wrong on the internet, that’s what!

I’m not arguing that piracy is a plague here or that DRM on one title would’ve saved Interplay. I’m merely saying companies make more money when they use DRM. This seems like it should be a noncontroversial point, like 1+1=2 or the sky is blue, but apparently not on RPG Codex.

Of course all the old Interplay guys feel like morons for shipping thousands of free, DRM-less copies of Fallout in various gaming magazines. It’s the ultimate own goal.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,803
Piracy indeed hurts when you're a household name and everybody of your prospective buyers has already heard of you (oh my god, you're only selling 10 million copies, not 12 million, terrible news), this is true in basically every entertainment industry. If you're part of the 95% that nobody knows about, with a minimal niche audience, then in most cases DRM will neither help you, and in some cases actively hurt you (both because the DRM is too arcane, although these days it has become less of a problem and because pirates can act as further marketing for really unknown stuff)
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,225
Location
Bjørgvin
We also know that protection mechanisms rarely come cheap and they usually hurt legitimate customers. So first and foremost you should think about them, not about pirates. Sadly, most publishers and developers think about the latter group instead, which is exactly what's hurting their sales.

I used to buy lots of movies on DVD, but got increasingly annoyed at unskippable intro scenes and anti-piracy nagging. Why the hell should a paying customer be subject to these things?
It only drove me into piracy. So, way to go!
 

The Bishop

Cipher
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
359
No wonder Arcanum was shipped with SecuROM
It did? Played it on release and never knew about it. I guess it speaks volumes about DRM and its effectiveness. Got it on GOG eventually.

I did however play some games with SecuROM, and that wasn't the most pleasant experience. It would always take 2-3 tries to identify the legit disk on my drive, even freshly out of the box. Get that you paying customer scum!

I’m merely saying companies make more money when they use DRM.
Yeah, about that...
 

cocorulverde

Educated
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
57
Without piracy I wouldn't have been able to even play the game :( Even if you wanted to buy an original copy (which was a new concept for us then, with a copyright law being introduced only in 1996 if I remember it right), it was pretty hard to find one back then in Romania. I remember I bought it from a russian at the market and being quite upset that it's the only game on the CD and I still have to pay the same price as for a CD that contained six or seven rips :)

“Piracy is not just good for me, it’s good for everyone!”
Well, for Eastern Europe, piracy was a godsend in the late 90s and the early 2000. It was the only solution for the most of us to play games. Try buying the original when all the major publishers don't give a shit about your hellhole of a country, your credit card is not accepted by the most online retailers (because of some script kiddies that thought themselves hackers) and digital distribution exists only in Gaben's wet dreams...
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
if it had copy protection there would likely be no mods(i.e. sfall, restoration project, etc.,) right now due to the added difficulty of modifying a copy-protected binary
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,874
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The idea that Leon knows anything about whether piracy genuinely hurts sales is almost as hilarious as the idea random Codexers know anything about video game financing. The fact is I highly suspect that effective copy protections like Denuvo that by and large 90% of users don't notice genuinely do help games make sales and it's probably noticeable if you are EA and have real statisticians analyse sales data.

The idea that Joe Dumfuck the illiterate eastern european truck driver off the Codex knows more than EA's highly paid corporate goons is hilarious though. Spoiler, if copy protection made no money nobody would pay for it.
 

Mark Richard

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
1,192
Piracy doesn’t hurt sales? Tell that to the music industry.
To hell with them. Napster revolutionised music distribution and all the music industry could do was cry, focusing entirely on the threat of piracy rather than the opportunity it presented. They refused to adapt at every turn and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age, but by then it was too late. Apple was already established and had taken their entire business.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
If not for piracy, many games - Fallout included - would never have been popularized. When I was younger, piracy was flourishing, but people still bought games fairly often, just not nearly as many as was played. For the overwhelmingly vast majority of my peers, buying a lot of games, convincing our (often not well-off) parents to buy games would've just not been possible, and in some cases (like mine) you'd feel bad just for asking (because you knew your family was poor).

Let's take Doom, for example. That shit was distributed by diskettes, and widely pirated by my elder brother and his friends, and it would never have had the cultural impact it did, without piracy. They expect that people would've bought the games instead, but that simply isn't true. Piracy allowed gaming to become a cultural phenomena and then a subculture, and now it is mainstream. This development would never have happened without rampant piracy.

This is no less true with Fallout.

Boyarski seems to have lost touch with the reality as it was 20-or-so years ago, when games weren't endemic, when you couldn't get anything online at a moment's notice, when there weren't 4 major sales a year that everyone had access to, and when gaming wasn't a publicly acknowledged mainstream pastime that parents were OK with investing in, or even knew anything whatsoever about.

And this is without even considering that a lot of games simply would've flown under the radar. You - sometimes - got info (filtered, obviously, by journos) mostly from magazines, not a sales site online with all the latest releases listed. Sometimes, the word-of-mouth following the piracy trail was how you got into contact with new games, and that was that. Missing games wasn't just a prospect, but something perfectly normal unless you invested in keeping track (with costly magazines that at least my family couldn't afford regularly). I missed Fallout, for example. I didn't play that until years after Baldur's Gate.

But I still bought games, sometimes. I still paid for Baldur's Gate + Tales of the Sword Coast. I wanted that box in my shelf, and I fucking loved the (incredibly useless and disc-scratching) paper CD-case. The manual was, especially for a fantasy fan that had not previously known anything about "real" RPG's, fucking amazing. And that game was a significant investment for me. I think it was the only one I got that year. From the corner computer store, on a shelf in my small town.

So fuck you, Boyarski. Fuck you for being enough of a retard to think that if piracy would've been impossible, we would've just magically conjured the money to pay for the games. Fuck you for assuming that others had the same fucking chances as you apparently did. Fuck you for being involved in the abortion that was Diablo III. Fuck you for thinking that the industry, let alone online communities, would even have developed in the same way without piracy. Fuck you for wanting to retcon my childhood.
 
Last edited:

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,803
Let's take Doom, for example. That shit was distributed by diskettes, and widely pirated by my elder brother and his friends, and it would never have had the cultural impact it did, without piracy. They expect that people would've bought the games instead, but that simply isn't true. Piracy allowed gaming to become a cultural phenomena and then a subculture, and now it is mainstream. This development would never have happened without rampant piracy.

Eh, agree with most of your points, but while the full version was likely pirated to hell as well, Doom Ep1 was shareware, they basically got as big as they were because they were intentionally free for everyone to copy (and, well, also having revolutionary graphics and gameplay at that time)
 

FreshCorpse

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
693
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Now that you mention it I'm fairly sure I recieved F2 for free on a cover disc in the UK. I don't think I ever tried it
 

Glaucon

Prophet
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,000
So fuck you, Boyarski. Fuck you for being enough of a retard to think that if piracy would've been impossible, we would've just magically conjured the money to pay for the games. Fuck you for assuming that others had the same fucking chances as you apparently did. Fuck you for being involved in the abortion that was Diablo III. Fuck you for thinking that the industry, let alone online communities, would even have developed in the same way without piracy. Fuck you for wanting to retcon my childhood.
Calm down you blathering woman. Yes, Boyarsky is being unreasonable in the sense that what he wants is impossible, but you don't actually have some sort of right to steal. You committed a crime, albeit not a particularly terrible one. Get over it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom