Baldur's Gate Avellone on the strength of BG2 companions

[Grunker]

So here’s “the greatest writer in the business” (at least he was, that’s undebatable, but I can’t recollect when he last wrote something great), praising BioWare’s cast of whiny teenagers:

The charm of the companions, for starters. One challenge I came back to after Pillars of Eternity (and I admit, I wrote two companions) is that a lot of the companions had lost a sense of charm that the Baldur’s Gate cast had. It hit me when I got involved with the Enhanced Editions, because they reminded me of the companion design of the original game and made me realise that following a formula had taken Obsidian largely off the beaten path. I say Pillars 1, as I didn’t play Pillars 2, but the Pillars 1 companions with the possible exception of Eder just didn’t carry the same punch as the Baldur’s Gate crew. The Baldur’s Gate crew felt like your friends, rivals, and even your conscience at times, but none of the Pillars companions had that charm about them. Again, I felt partly to blame for that.

Now, as harsh as I am towards the original Pillars companions, companion writing is easily the worst part of my otherwise beloved BG2. The game relies heavily on melodrama and sappiness. And the Beamdog companions, man, they are just...

I can’t escape the feeling after reading the OG Avellone thread, more rants and now this interview that any excuse for expressing bitterness towards Obsidian is jumped at at this point. At least the lack of any great, modern Avellone writing is explained if he is somehow trying to bring back the Days of Our Lives version of RPG companions.

The interview is pretty much just fan-fellatio (“An Avellone email is concise yet courteous. It respects your time and manages expectations about replies to your questions. It is humble to a frankly absurd degree. “Thanks for thinking of me,” one reads, as if he wasn’t the most celebrated RPG writer in the industry.”) but it’s still an interesting enough read in places, e.g.:

There have been a lot of games that have tried to capitalise on the Baldur’s Gate nostalgia, including games I worked on at Obsidian, but I think they would have been better off finding their own voice or finding a new hook in a new fantasy world that would inspire a distinct approach.

The most major criticism I’ve heard both on the Codex and outside is that Pillars was not enough like Baldur’s Gate. I’m not sure it would have helped much distancing yourself even more. Arguably that was what Pillars 2 tried and it hurt the sales like a motherfucker. Pillars 1 probably made most of it sales on that premise tbh.

Here’s the whole interview:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/chris-avellone-interview

 

[Roguey]

Funny thing is that Obs tried and failed to do Bioware-style companions with NWN2, and Deadfire's cast of characters are Millennial-twee Bioware folks (as opposed to the snarky or silly Gen X Bioware of old)

 

[Grunker]

More or less true. Bishop was great IIRC though it’s been ages since I played that game. Pillars 2 companions are a mixed bag. Serafen is great but ekera, Tekehu is making me feel awkward about playing video games

 

[Roguey]

Another funny thing is that Avellone had full creative control over a sequel to a Bioware game and he chose to make fun of or otherwise subvert all their archetypes as opposed to playing it straight. Though perhaps now he considers that a lesson well learned and wouldn't make the same choices.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah to be fair he’s not just pointing there I think, he basically said he made the same mistakes on BG3. But if it’s a lesson learned he learned it long ago and he didn’t write “Baldur’s Gate” charm since, did he? Haven’t played Kingmaker yet, mind.

 

[Nano]

at least he was, that’s undebatable, but I can’t recollect when he last wrote something great

New Vegas DLCs 7 years ago. If Avellone doesn't get on this case soon it'll be a decade since he's had a major role on a game.

 

[Butter]

More or less true. Bishop was great IIRC though it’s been ages since I played that game. Pillars 2 companions are a mixed bag. Serafen is great but ekera, Tekehu is making me feel awkward about playing video games

It's easy to point at Tekehu as an example of a terribly written companion, but nobody mentions Pallegina being turned into a god-awful tranny allegory in Deadfire.

 

[Grunker]

^ haven’t played with the new Pallegina yet.

at least he was, that’s undebatable, but I can’t recollect when he last wrote something great

New Vegas DLCs 7 years ago. If Avellone doesn't get on this case soon it'll be a decade since he's had a major role on a game.

I get the praise for OWB’s writing to some extend even if it didn’t really tickle my own fancy, but I thought it played horribly. Enjoyed Dead Money much more.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah to be fair he’s not just pointing there I think, he basically said he made the same mistakes on BG3.

Sawyer was in charge of the narrative of The Black Hound so this was yet another slam on his direction.

 

[Sentinel]

But Avellone is right.
I don't get it, what are you complaining about? He isn't the first one to complain that PoE companions were dull as fuck and BG companions were a lot better both in number and quality.

 

[Grunker]

I’m not complaining, I’m disagreeing. BioWare companions and “quality” are generally not concepts I associate.

Yeah to be fair he’s not just pointing there I think, he basically said he made the same mistakes on BG3.

Sawyer was in charge of the narrative of The Black Hound so this was yet another slam on his direction.

So even self-criticism is a vehicle for bitterness, eh?

 

[Sentinel]

You're wrong then, retard.

 

[Grunker]

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. Was it romancing Viconia or Aerie that made you fall in love, promising to forever defend their virtues against evil criticism on the internet? Or perhaps it was Anomen?

 

[Fairfax]

Another funny thing is that Avellone had full creative control over a sequel to a Bioware game and he chose to make fun of or otherwise subvert all their archetypes as opposed to playing it straight. Though perhaps now he considers that a lesson well learned and wouldn't make the same choices.

He never said the BioWare approach is the correct one or his favourite, he was just saying BG companions were better than PoE's. His only regret re: KOTOR2 companions is that he wrote too many.

Yeah to be fair he’s not just pointing there I think, he basically said he made the same mistakes on BG3.

Sawyer was in charge of the narrative of The Black Hound so this was yet another slam on his direction.

True, though Sawyer himself admitted similar issues:

Looking back, I don't think all of the decisions I/we were making on TBH were good ones. I have changed some aspects for personal taste and scope issues, but the core of the game should feel very similar. Some of the more significant changes are a reduction of the game area (which was larger than BG2 during core development on TBH), a revision of the story to be less convoluted, and the shifting of some character roles in the story.

Also, this was another potential slam:

Lastly, the developers who worked on Baldur’s Gate loved D&D. They played it, embraced it, and I think part of the charm of Baldur’s Gate was that they let the characters they had played in their own campaigns appear and be part of the story in Baldur’s Gate.

 

[A horse of course]

But Avellone is right.
I don't get it, what are you complaining about? He isn't the first one to complain that PoE companions were dull as fuck and BG companions were a lot better both in number and quality.

Codex is full of morans who hate the BG series for being fun, fan-pleasing, and actually having mainstream popularity. This is the PoE/InXile fanbase and the reason the RPG "renaissance" turned out to be trash. r00fles!

 

[Grunker]

But Avellone is right.
I don't get it, what are you complaining about? He isn't the first one to complain that PoE companions were dull as fuck and BG companions were a lot better both in number and quality.

Codex is full of morans who hate the BG series for being fun, fan-pleasing, and actually having mainstream popularity. This is the PoE/InXile fanbase and the reason the RPG "renaissance" turned out to be trash. r00fles!

BG2 is my favorite game of all time.

 

[A horse of course]

But Avellone is right.
I don't get it, what are you complaining about? He isn't the first one to complain that PoE companions were dull as fuck and BG companions were a lot better both in number and quality.

Codex is full of morans who hate the BG series for being fun, fan-pleasing, and actually having mainstream popularity. This is the PoE/InXile fanbase and the reason the RPG "renaissance" turned out to be trash. r00fles!

Dragon Age: Origins is my favorite game of all time.

 

[Sentinel]

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. Was it romancing Viconia or Aerie that made you fall in love, promising to forever defend their virtues against evil criticism on the internet? Or perhaps it was Anomen?

Stab in the dark. I've actually never pursued any of the romances in the BG saga. Unlike you, as evident.

 

[Grunker]

Ed123 if I hate the BG-series for being fan-servicing despite praising it for being the best thing since sliced bread in my review, why am I praising Siege for being exactly that - fan service?

Also, this was another potential slam:

Lastly, the developers who worked on Baldur’s Gate loved D&D. They played it, embraced it, and I think part of the charm of Baldur’s Gate was that they let the characters they had played in their own campaigns appear and be part of the story in Baldur’s Gate.

I more or less agree with Avellone here though. One of the reasons Siege of Crägholdt is so great is that it is much more focused in this regard, and the same is true of the expansion overall.

 

[Roguey]

Ah yes, "muh wings" and "muh hamster." They were certainly a memorably obnoxious bunch.

Josh and Chris are like night and day when it comes to writing styles. Just contrast Avellone's Hanged Man with Sawyer's Burned Man

In VB, he was seemingly a man without purpose. While his characterization by others and his tendency to laugh off/ignore attempts by others to control him could have been interesting, it really ended at "nasty guy who says and does creepy stuff and is a badass". There were specific instances (such as at New Canaan) where he would specifically avoid conflict and showed some additional depth, but he effectively had no character arc within the story.

Personally, I think the "wow so crazy" type characters aren't particularly interesting or insightful because they only exist in pure fantasy and, as such, can't really be related to. I think it's important for characters who are influencing player opinions to be more-or-less human. If you can't put yourself in the character's shoes, it's hard to empathize with him or her.

And Avellone's opinion

Brandon Adler did weigh in on production decisions, but he wasn't always listened to. For example, he told me that in all future titles, Josh should not do any companion design or writing for a long list of reasons (which made sense - the biggest point was the time it consumed vs. overseeing the project as Project Director). That said, Brandon doesn't run Obsidian, and while his instincts may be correct (I agreed when he told me his opinion), he doesn't have the authority to make that happen vs. the "owners".

Oddly enough, back in 2006 Sawyer himself used to agree with this assessment

Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

Meanwhile, Av is all about the ego-stroking and the design philosophy of

Each stage of the game should ask the question, "Why should the player care?", and each stage of the game should answer it.

which Sawyer seems to completely disregard. Chris's approach certainly makes for games that actually appeal to larger numbers of people (as opposed to just goons, game journalists, and seemingly little else).

 

[A horse of course]

Roguey please tell Grunker that I'm not speaking to him.

 

[Grunker]

Ah yes, "muh wings" and "muh hamster." They were certainly a memorably obnoxious bunch.

Josh and Chris are like night and day when it comes to writing styles. Just contrast Avellone's Hanged Man with Sawyer's Burned Man

In VB, he was seemingly a man without purpose. While his characterization by others and his tendency to laugh off/ignore attempts by others to control him could have been interesting, it really ended at "nasty guy who says and does creepy stuff and is a badass". There were specific instances (such as at New Canaan) where he would specifically avoid conflict and showed some additional depth, but he effectively had no character arc within the story.

Personally, I think the "wow so crazy" type characters aren't particularly interesting or insightful because they only exist in pure fantasy and, as such, can't really be related to. I think it's important for characters who are influencing player opinions to be more-or-less human. If you can't put yourself in the character's shoes, it's hard to empathize with him or her.

And Avellone's opinion

Brandon Adler did weigh in on production decisions, but he wasn't always listened to. For example, he told me that in all future titles, Josh should not do any companion design or writing for a long list of reasons (which made sense - the biggest point was the time it consumed vs. overseeing the project as Project Director). That said, Brandon doesn't run Obsidian, and while his instincts may be correct (I agreed when he told me his opinion), he doesn't have the authority to make that happen vs. the "owners".

Oddly enough, back in 2006 Sawyer himself used to agree with this assessment

Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

Meanwhile, Av is all about the ego-stroking and the design philosophy of

Each stage of the game should ask the question, "Why should the player care?", and each stage of the game should answer it.

which Sawyer seems to completely disregard. Chris's approach certainly makes for games that actually appeal to larger numbers of people (as opposed to just goons, game journalists, and seemingly little else).

Josh certainly has a keen ability to throw the baby out with the bath-water.

 

[LizardWizard]

Edwin and Sarevok are bros

 

[DeepOcean]

"Why should the player care?"

This is more than just pandering though, I didn't get the feeling from Avellone work that he did pandering on the way Bioware did. Pondering "why should the player care?" is a legitimate question as much as "why should a movie goer care?" or "why should a reader care?". You need to care about the perspective of the people that are going to consume your stuff, unless you want to live on a cave and sell to nobody like PoE 2 did.

 

[Grunker]

Edwin and Sarevok are bros

Edwin is great if a little on the whacky side but I didn’t much care for Sarevok in ToB