What game are you wasting time on?

[Tse Tse Fly]

Hello Unkillable Cat,

Spoiler

The single biggest problem with your entire train of thought is the fact that you're coming to this game not just after it was released, but long after it was released

Are you basically saying that I'm 'wrong' because I was born merely a couple of years before 1997 and it was impossible for me to experience the game at the time when it was coming out? I kind of acknowledge that it was a mistake not to play the proper fallout games thoroughly back when I first got the chance to do so. I also understand that in order to properly assess a videogame one should take into account not only the time when the game was released, but also it's genre and the gaming platform for which it was produced. And I have said already that the combat was not the main disappointment.

The games you name as examples/comparisons (Alien Shooter [2003] and Hotline: Miami [2012])

They were given as an illustration so the reader could get a quick idea of what I was going to say, actually saving me the trouble of coming up with a proper description for this kind of gameplay.

just you wait if you think Fallout has "a few skills, perks and some traits being rather useless". Tactics had to sacrifice so much to get real-time combat in there

Many of the skills in Fallout generally are not used during combat, so it wouldn't have made a world of difference if the combat was real-time. The perception statistic then could be attribute for character's field of sight. Yes, perception is not just how far you can see, but it's is not like it had broader application during combat in the first Fallout.

All of them played Fallout, and most of them did so because of the combat system.

It may be looking awesome at the first glance, but the more you play the more you get convinced that battles in Fallout are just a filler and nothing really impressive (I'm speaking of the first Fallout). Combat system is just there and that's it.

I could go on and on here disassembling your critique

So you were going to covince me that I 'wrongfully' disliked (or rather, didn't like that much) the thigns I disliked in the first Fallout (like quests, locations etc, the actual content, that is) or overlooked the good things? Or maybe it is that I liked not the same things as those which you liked or disliked the things which you liked? If so, I would be most curious to know what it could be. By the way, what do you think about the story in the first Fallout?

I'm not saying Fallout is a bad game. The problem is that it's too short (and too old) which makes both good and bad qualities to stand out more prominently and be more easy to disassemble bit by bit.

You've been spoiled rotten by modern games, to the point that you can't recognize a good game, even when it kicks you in the balls.

Have a nice day you too.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You're 'wrong' because you're starting at today and going backwards, when it should be the other way around. That is hard to do without a time machine, but not impossible. octavius (who coincidentally made a post in this thread between my post and yours) has been doing exactly that for a couple of years now (at least) and it's been interesting to read his observations. Seeing how games change and improve through the years, how new technology allows for new ideas and new gameplay to emerge, builds up a very solid picture of the evolution of video games.

Not being present when Fallout was new also means you miss out on a lot, like perspective. Case in point:

All of them played Fallout, and most of them did so because of the combat system.

It may be looking awesome from the first sight, but the more you play the better you understand that battles in Fallout are just a filler and nothing really impressive (I'm speaking of the first Fallout). It's just there and that's it.

Your comment is based on hindsight and both has, and lacks, perspective simultaneously. I'm forced to repeat myself here: They played it because they liked it at the time, and it was the best available at the time. (It got surpassed very quickly BTW.) The odds of those same people wanting to play Fallout again today 'just for the combat' is miniscule. Combat systems (and combat in games in general) have evolved in leaps and bounds since 1997, but had not done so back then.

So you were going to covince me that I 'wrongfully' disliked (or rather, didn't like that much) the thigns I disliked in the first Fallout (like quests, locations etc, the actual content, that is) or overlooked the good things? Or maybe it is that I liked not the same things as those which you liked (or even, disliked)? I would be most curious to know what it could be.

It's more of the latter, overlooking the good things. Like the voice acting, which you only rated "decent". Video game voice acting was still pretty much in its infancy in 1997, but Fallout was one of the first games to have an actor's soup* for a cast. Before that games either did voice acting as cheaply as possible to save money, or blew the voice acting budget on one big-name celebrity/voice talent to boost the game's marketing appeal. Fallout tried to find good voice actors to match the roles given... and they succeeded. Ron Perlman is a lot of things to a lot of people, but to Fallout fans he is the voice of the series. Yet most people miss out that he's not only the narrator of Fallout, he also voices Butch in-game. They used two talented voice actors for The Master (plus SFX trickery) to bring to life one of the most unique antagonists to grace a video game. Voice acting legend Tony Jay makes The Lieutenant ooze with malice. The Fallout voice acting isn't just outstanding for its quality in a time when most developers considered it an afterthought, it's significant in a historic context.

Which brings me to another problem you may be experiencing with the voice cast: Recognition based on perspective. Like I said, I recognize almost every name on the list for their work elsewhere, but I was in my teens when Fallout was released. You were a toddler then, you will be missing out. To me Richard Dean Anderson (who voiced Killian) will always be MacGyver, but to you he's more likely to be Col. O'Neill from the Stargate series. It depends on how you look at things... or whether you're starting at today and looking backwards, or starting way back then and looking forward.

Another point of note is that two voice actors in Fallout didn't become famous or well-known until after Fallout had come and gone: Tony Shaloub who voiced Aradesh the Elder went on to play the main character in the series Monk, while Brad Garrett who voiced the dim-witted supermutant Harry had just started doing his most well-known role, that of Raymond's brother Robbie in Everybody Loves Raymond, and that series took a few years to take off. The voice acting in Fallout is one of the few things about the game that has actually improved with age.

I must also put a giant question mark about the fact that you don't mention the soundtrack at all. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

The fact that I intended to make this a short answer should give you an idea of how much I can talk about this game... and I'm not one of the Fallout experts around here (not even close).

*'Actor's soup' is a term from my country where one recognizes almost every actor that appears in a film or show.

 

[Valky]

Still playing La Mulana, now clocked in around 17 hours. I just solved the puzzle to enter Eden.

Fucking hell this is possibly one of the greatest games of all time. Having to use my notebook to write down every translated tablet and figure out the puzzles, I haven't felt this alive in years.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

dipping my toes into rebel galaxy

liking what i see so far

my first quest was to meet some shady fellow and pick up some illegalanium over there somewhere

halfway there some merchant is being accosted by some pirates so i go over there and blast the shite out of them and earn 3000 starbucks for saving his ass

woo hoo

got interrupted by real life so exited game in a hurry

saw last screen before desktop:

you can only save at a space station

remembered i didnt




salright tho; i forgive it

good game

 

[Tse Tse Fly]

Hey Unkillable Cat.

Spoiler

It turns out that perception of a work of art greatly depends on one's cultural background (what books you have read, what films you have watched, etc) and personal preferences. It is not like I'm going to suddenly appreciate the voice-acting in Fallout more after you mentioned those names (as they tell me nothing). I wasn't coming here to give a complete and objective analysis, like, 'review' the game. It was just my impressions after playing the first Fallout to completion for the first time. And after playing and completing Fallout 2 and the subsequent games in the franchise it is possible that I will correct my views.
About music - its main purpose in Fallout is to create atmosphere and convey the general feel of each area to aid the player's perception of the game world. I cannot professionally judge on the quality of the music pieces or analyze their composition, as I'm not knowledgeable in this subject. This is why I didn't mention music on its own as a distinct merit of Fallout, but rather indicated that the atmosphere of the bleak and depressing reality of a post-apocalyptic wasteland was a joy to experience while playing the game.
There are music tracks in Fallout that sound kind of nice and atmospheric, but appear too short and repetitive (Necropolis, for example).
A couple are simply annoying to my ears (Shady Sands, Hub).
Some are just curious to listen to (Vault 13, the Lost Hills bunker).
And there are also a good number of music pieces that I find to be really impressive (The Glow, Mariposa Military Base, Boneyard, the vault under the Cathedral).
I don't feel enthusiastic about listening to Fallout's soundtrack separated from the main game though, but it's just my preference.
Overall, the soundtrack for the game appears to be quite pleasant and well done, but again I'm not a music enthusiast so I can't say much outside the uninformative 'like/don't like' (I don't listen to music much, anymore than I could be considered a connoisseur of the genre the game's soundtrack belongs to).

 

[CryptRat]

I knew a lot of people that played video games back in 1997, all with different tastes and preferences for what games they liked. All of them played Fallout, and most of them did so because of the combat system. It was not perfect, but back then it was awesome fun and it was the best we got at the time.

I can state my friends and I already played Fallout for the complete package back in the day, not exclusively for its combat.

Also yes they could have made the combat real-time in 1997. I like to think they didn't make it real-time only because they had some idea of what they were doing, even if it's probably not 100% accurate. Real-time combat is not appropriate in RPGs, and even less in a heavily stat-based one (or better said a proper one) like Fallout.

Hotline Miami could have been made in 1997 since Alien Breed of Chaos Engine were made before. Absolutely nothing to do with RPGs though', no way I want to see this kind of combat in a game like Fallout.

a lot of things about the game raise a lot of questions that sound obvious to today's audience.

There are many things modern audience doesn't like in Fallout, like not being held by the hand, which does not mean these complaints are legit, this one typically is not.

What people love about Fallout is how it took a dedicated RPG system and adapted it into a video game, then created one of the most atmospheric post-apocalyptic settings we've seen and made it feel real and alive... and all of that using a clunky interface. And yet it's loads of fun. The fact that it doesn't answer every question adds to the setting, the fact that the player has to keep notes of things and isn't held by the hand through the game puts the onus on the player, where it should be.

Yes that I agree with.

You're 'wrong' because you're starting at today and going backwards, when it should be the other way around. That is hard to do without a time machine, but not impossible. octavius (who coincidentally made a post in this thread between my post and yours) has been doing exactly that for a couple of years now (at least) and it's been interesting to read his observations. Seeing how games change and improve through the years, how new technology allows for new ideas and new gameplay to emerge, builds up a very solid picture of the evolution of video games.

There are two different things :
- Yes Fallout was a good surprise at the time and when you just buy the box without a precise idea of what you're going to play it's even better.
- Role playing video games evolve only for the worse since 1997, playing more modern games does not make Fallout seem worse than it is, it's better than most of what came after (especially all these games vaguely inspired by it but finally without most of what makes it good, like a story you make yourself, turn-based combat, interactive environment and heavily stat-based gameplay, basically they just kept the branching quests), while in the mass of what came before Fallout some contenders with different qualities than those of Fallout exist.


About combat :

They played it because they liked it at the time, and it was the best available at the time.

Liked it, yes, but best available at the time is debatable. The lack of controllable party was slightly annoying.

Fallout is not exactly a game build over fully controlling a party, they made a game with different playthroughs based on your sheet like Quest for glory, your main character has to choose what he's good at and accepts he's not good at something else and that's fine. The combat part itself may suffer from that, and maybe they should have let the player control the other characters only in combat, that's debatable.

(It got surpassed very quickly BTW.)[...]Combat systems (and combat in games in general) have evolved in leaps and bounds since 1997, but had not done so back then.

ToEE, Jagged Alliance 2 and a few more games which are built over controlling a party while Fallout is not exactly are slight improvements over Fallout, in a period of 20 years. I really don't consider that as "evolved in leaps and bounds".

 

[Abelian]

Recently finished Westwood's Nox with conjurer and wizard, since I only beat the game as a warrior years ago. I got a kick out of the magic system, especially the conjurer's bomber summon and the wizard's traps, both of which are loaded with your choice of spells (ex. target gets hit with both slow and meteor).

Currently playing Divine Divinity, which I started a couple of years ago but never finished.

Both games still look stunning and provide an excellent example of what can be accomplished using 2D graphical projections (isometric in Nox, oblique in DD). I enjoyed the music in both games, as well.

 

[Gregz]

Currently playing Divine Divinity, which I started a couple of years ago but never finished.

Both games still look stunning and provide an excellent example of what can be accomplished using 2D graphical projections (isometric in Nox, oblique in DD). I enjoyed the music in both games, as well.

Div Div is fantastic, beware of the savegame bug however. Your save can get randomly corrupted causing CTD. Make a unique save every 8 hours or so, and don't overwrite it, you may need it later.

 

[Siveon]

Currently playing Divine Divinity, which I started a couple of years ago but never finished.

Both games still look stunning and provide an excellent example of what can be accomplished using 2D graphical projections (isometric in Nox, oblique in DD). I enjoyed the music in both games, as well.

Div Div is fantastic, beware of the savegame bug however. Your save can get randomly corrupted causing CTD. Make a unique save every 8 hours or so, and don't overwrite it, you may need it later.

Another tip is that melee is like, super underpowered.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

melee is like, super underpowered.

That's no excuse though.

 

[filpan]

I'm playing Orphan, a great metroid platformer with unbelievable atmosphere. It reminds of Limbo and Inside, for those who havent tried these three, please give them a go. Orphan was made by one man.

Other than that, Doom is always installed on my hard disc, I recently finished, TR2013 and Rise of the TR, PoEII. I will soon start Insomnia because I dont believe they will patch that game all the way so why waste time. Pathfinder Kingmaker is last on the last, as it is a cRPG I have been waiting for a long time.

 

[Ezekiel]

Finished Breath of the Wild a couple of days ago. Started Mario Odyssey three days ago. Pretty far into it. Bayonetta 2 and Mario Kart 8 on the side. Feels good to be on Nintendo again after skipping two generations. I also get the appeal of handhelds now. Been getting a lot of progress done on my commutes and sometimes on my lunches at work.

 

[octavius]

Completed System Shock 2 on normal difficulty, with reduced spawning and weapons deteriation, in 23 hours.
First time I played SS1 I used 20 hours on normal, and the second time 40 hours on hard (except cyberspace, IIRC).

The game was a bit shorter than I ecpected, and the last couple of areas were rather small.
The penultimate area was like The Maw of Chaos final level of Thief 1, but with a Doom (Doom 2, I think) type boss.
And the final area was a sight for nostalgic eyes...
The penultimate boss fight was the hardest one, as I was not sure how to kill the Brain. The final fight I managed on first try. Having a couple of ICE cubes and high Hacking skill helped.

Overall a great game, but with some balancing issues, or rather too much micromanagement of resources if playing it "as intended".
Went with max skills in Normal and Energy weapons (I really liked the light sabre and EMP rifle). Exotic weapons sounded interesting, but too much work collecting ammo for them.

 

[Mustawd]

So recently beat Episodes 1-3 on Ultimate DOOM. Kinda skipped Episode 4, as my understanding is that those levels were not made by ID, but instead made by modders. After playing the first level of EP4, I exited, uninstalled, and called it a day. My goal was to beat original DOOM1 anyhow. That, and the level design quality dip was readily apparent from the get go.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Episode 1 is the best of all the episodes. Followed by Episode 3, and Episode 2 brings in the rear.
2. Episode 2 introduced a bunch of retarded levels that killed the pacing of the game. They were so just not fun. Episode 3 was better, but was also a bit maze heavy, especially with the intro of teleporters. But overall it was still fun. With the second half of the episode having the best levels IMO
3. the original control scheme is crap. It's just crap. I remember playing DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 when I was 11 or so, and never strafing. Now I remember why. Quickly downloaded a sourceport and replaced the EXE to have WASD and mouselook. If you are thinking of playing this game, do the same. It's a completely different experience and tons of fun.
4. DOOM 2 is better in many ways. Although I'd say Episode 1 is DOOm2 quality.
5. Graphics still hold up. Music and sound is still fantastic. Great game, but level design is lacking in 3/5 of the game.
6. When backlog is cleared (ETA 30 years) I'll come back to play the best WADS.


Speaking of backlog, I've estimated that it'll take me 30 years to clear my backlog of ~300 games with a pace of 10 games beat a year. Just for some background I played most of the older PC games of the computers of friends and never really had a ton of time to play to completion. So when I got back into gaming circa 2012, I went crazy and bout something like 400 games. I've deleted a few that were just bad purchases, and will likely do the same with others as I go through them and realize they are shit.

So in that vein I played Stanley's Parable. It was a stupid waste of time, but it was less than an hour and got me to the 10th game of 2018.


Now, I've spent like 2 hours trying to get Gothic 1 to work on Windows 10, and I think I'm finally in a good place. I played it in the past but never beat it. Holy god it's jankier than I remember. Also, it's surprising how fast got used to the jank, and now I'm well on my way to getting into it again.

Would be nice to beat it before 2018 is done with.

 

[unfairlight]

Would be nice to beat it before 2018 is done with.

The game is only 20-25 hours long, you will.
I don't get how you could spend 2 hours to get it working though, it's not that hard.

 

[Mustawd]

I don't get how you could spend 2 hours to get it working though, it's not that hard.

1-15 minutes - Download it took like 10 minutes. Then I run it on Steam and get some kind of error called an "access violation" link
15-30 minutes - I look up the issue via google. Download the patch. Apply. And run it again. The issues include a small resolution. I google how to fix it and find some YouTube video that says to fix via config file. So I do that.
30-50 minutes - I run the game but it still has a white border around it. but I power though and start to play. Then I realize I can't see the inventory screen cuz the top is cut off. So I start to research more.
50 mins - 1.5 hrs - Find a website that says I need to install three patches then a system patch. So I uninstall the game on steam completely. Redownload the game. Download all the patch files.
1.5 - 2 hrs - Apply all the patches, and test the game. Change resolution in-game. Boom. Works.

total 2 hrs.

 

[Sceptic]

So recently beat Episodes 1-3 on Ultimate DOOM. Kinda skipped Episode 4, as my understanding is that those levels were not made by ID, but instead made by modders.

IDK where you got the idea, but no, most were made by the id regulars.

E4M1 American McGee
E4M2 John Romero
E4M3 Shawn Green
E4M4 American McGee
E4M5 Tim Willits
E4M6 John Romero
E4M7 John Anderson
E4M8 Shawn Green
E4M9 Tim Willits

That said I do agree it's not as good as the other 3 episodes. Still for a free update it was quite welcome.

1. Episode 1 is the best of all the episodes. Followed by Episode 3, and Episode 2 brings in the rear.

In general I agree, and E1 was considered the pinnacle back then too. That said...

2. Episode 2 introduced a bunch of retarded levels that killed the pacing of the game. They were so just not fun. Episode 3 was better, but was also a bit maze heavy, especially with the intro of teleporters. But overall it was still fun. With the second half of the episode having the best levels IMO

I don't agree with this at all. I can't think of a single E2 level that's anything less than "ok", never mind "retarded". I love the variety and how the levels turn progressively from space station-y in Containment Area into a more hellish theme by the time you're in Spawning Vats. Tower of Babel is a really cool boss fight too, considering you don't have the BFG in this episode. I think Adrian Carmack and Bobby Prince outdid themselves with E2 as well, the visuals and the music are great. I like E3 but sometimes feel it's more gimmicky than both E1 and E2, though E3M6 is probably the first open level made in an FPS and it's a great level.

3. the original control scheme is crap. It's just crap. I remember playing DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 when I was 11 or so, and never strafing. Now I remember why. Quickly downloaded a sourceport and replaced the EXE to have WASD and mouselook. If you are thinking of playing this game, do the same. It's a completely different experience and tons of fun.

I mean, I agree that a port is more comfortable, but crap? no. Original scheme was fine considering how the game controls and that there's no vertical looking of any kind anyway. Completely free mouselook tends to be bork a lot of things, including spirtes and skyboxes. As with most "different experiences" it's better in some ways and worse in others. I'd still play and recommend a port, but with certain reservations on just how much you look up and down if you don't want everything to look completely distorted and glitchy.

4. DOOM 2 is better in many ways. Although I'd say Episode 1 is DOOm2 quality.

E1 level design is better than Doom2's, though I do enjoy all the gimmicks in Doom2's levels. Playing Deathmatch in particular will really make you realize how exquisite the level design of E1 is.

5. Graphics still gold up. Music and sound is still fantastic. Great game, but level design is lacking in 3/5 of the game.

Yes, yes, yes, no."Lacking" implies much more serious problems than anything in any Doom level, including even most of E4. I'm really not sure what you're comparing the level design to when you say this, aside from other levels in Doom itself. There are maybe like a handful of games with level design that's in even remotely the same league as Doom's.

6. When backlog is cleared (ETA 10 years) I'll come back to play the best WADS.

It'll take you another 10 years to play those too
Depending on where you set the bar there may either be dozens or less than a handful of these.

 

[Harry Easter]

Tyranny. After two years and the Bastard's Wound - expansion the game feels better than before, the writing stays strong and I certainly enjoy the choosing of the factions. Still a good game and now a complete one. Almost makes me wish for a continuation of this story, but I think the ending is fine as it is. Another game in this setting would be nice though.

 

[Mustawd]

I don't agree with this at all. I can't think of a single E2 level that's anything less than "ok", never mind "retarded"

The warehouse level was quite retarded IMO. Also, Epsiode 2 had a variety of levels that start out fun, but then turn into Raiders pf the Lost Red Skull Key. Just no. It completely kills pacing.

That said I do agree it's not as good as the other 3 episodes

So the first level of episode 4 starts with an area with a pool of green goo. Many levels had a stair case that if you fall into it you can run up and get away from the goo or the lava or whatever. The first level didn't have that. Off the bat it felt inferior too, so I just called it a day.

IDK where you got the idea, but no, most were made by the id regulars.

Might have confused t with Master Levels then.

Original scheme was fine considering how the game controls and that there's no vertical looking of any kind anyway.

It's not fine. It's awful. For one, if Ultimate DOOM is any indication there was no rebinding of keys. Two, it's just retarded. Strafing is completely borked. The turn and shoot buttons are super cramped (something i remember thinking even as an 11 yr old). I'm sorry, but I stand by my initial statement. It's awful.

I do enjoy all the gimmicks in Doom2's levels.

We just have to disagree here. I hated all the gimmicks of Episode 2. I'm glad that whole ordeal is over tbh.

I'm really not sure what you're comparing the level design to when you say this

I'm asking myself "am I having fun?" If the answer is no, then the level is lacking IMO. Especially compared with episode 1. Why not have more of Episode 1? It was soooo good.

 

[Sceptic]

So the first level of episode 4 starts with an area with a pool of green goo. Many levels had a stair case that if you fall into it you can run up and get away from the goo or the lava or whatever. The first level didn't have that. Off the bat it felt inferior too, so I just called it a day.

I think there were a few "gotchas" in pre-Ultimate as well (in fact I think E1 is the only episode that always, absolutely makes sure you can get out of goo/lava before it kills you), Doom 2 has quite a few of them IIRC. I don't think I mind it that much, because on Ultraviolence falling into lava means death 90% of the time anyway, but from a pure design perspective being able to get out of anything, and having everything connected, gives levels a much more organic feel.

Might have confused t with Master Levels then.

Yeah Master Levels was the modder compilation. Most of the actual Master Levels are quite good. It shipped with Maximum Doom, which was a few hundred (thousand?) modder levels, and those varied wildly in quality (I think some were broken too, but I never played that many of the Maximums).

It's not fine. It's awful. For one, if Ultimate DOOM is any indication there was no rebinding of keys. Two, it's just retarded. Strafing is completely borked. The turn and shoot buttons are super cramped (something i remember thinking even as an 11 yr old). I'm sorry, but I stand by my initial statement. It's awful.

You can stand by whatever you like, but you're plain wrong, keys can be rebound, I had my own variant for Doom way back during 1.1, and persisted with other variations on the original depending on how I felt like all the way through Doom 2 1.9. Also IIRC original keys are arrow keys for turning and Ctrl for shooting, which are at like opposite ends of the keyboard (unless you absolutely insist on using RCtrl, in this case yes they're cramped, but that's hardly the game's fault since everyone else used LCtrl). Strafing worked with Shift or Alt, can't remember which was which (the other was Run). Unless you were playing with mouse, which obviously wasn't mouselook back then (it took until WinQuake or GLQuake for that to happen), it was a pretty comfortable setup, left hand on Shift/Ctrl/Alt/Space and right hand on arrow keys. Pros used the mouse obviously, which was harder but extremely deadly in the hands of a good player.

We just have to disagree here. I hated all the gimmicks of Episode 2. I'm glad that whole ordeal is over tbh.

I was talking about Doom 2, not E2. Which I'm pretty sure you said you enjoyed. Not sure why since the gimmicks are much more pronounced than in E2, where you hated them, but eh.

I'm asking myself "am I having fun?" If the answer is no, then the level is lacking IMO. Especially compared with episode 1. Why not have more of Episode 1? It was soooo good.

The "I'm having fun therefore it's good" argument is odd, but to answer your why not more question, I guess you like Romero's design better. E1 was almost entirely him, whereas E2 and E3 were mostly Sandy Petersen, and Doom 2 was a mixture of both of them as well as others. If you play or have played Quake I'm curious to see how you'll feel about it, one of the episodes (won't say which, to keep bias out of the experiment if you do play it) is entirely Romero, while the others are mostly Sandy Petersen and American McGee, with some Tim Willits thrown in.

 

[Mustawd]

You can stand by whatever you like, but you're plain wrong, keys can be rebound

If that’s the case then I take back what I said. I was going off by memory and what Ultimate Doom gives you as options.

Personally, the default controls were just awful for me. Even back then.

I was talking about Doom 2, not E2. Which I'm pretty sure you said you enjoyed. Not sure why since the gimmicks are much more pronounced than in E2, where you hated them, but eh.

Admittedly, d2 = better level design might have been just me shooting from the hip. I played both back in the day and remember liking 2’s levels better overall. It’s hard to imagine it having as many pressure tiles and random switches as D1 E2, but we’re talking 13-14 years ago here, so my memory is quite hazy. I should probably not make statements like that if I haven’t olayed it recently (my biggest issue with E2 IIRC was the skull switches because their use was so inconsistent in terms of using that icon as a switch. In addition the levels felt a lot more start stop start stop in terms of pacing).

Speaking of memory, I remember Heretic feeling a lot mire open as well, but I only ever played the shareware version.

If you play or have played Quake I'm curious to see how you'll feel about it

I never played Quake, but I'll put that on my list.

The "I'm having fun therefore it's good" argument is odd,

I'm merely mentioning that looking at the game now, the areas that I had fun the most were EP1 and some more open areas of EP3. EP2 had some levels that were fun, but ultimately spoiled for me due to maze-like qualities, which I've never really enjoyed tbh.

I guess you like Romero's design better

Sandy definitely used the engine in more creative ways than romero did in his EP1 levels. But I just found EP1 to be overlal "elegant" in its design. I feel if Romero were to have started using more teleporters and other innovations that Sandy used, he likely would have toned it down a bit and produced a better flow. But who knows. That's an impossible experiment to run.

Regardless, I just feel like EP1 flows better overall. While I find Sandy' levels too large and oftentime stop the action for puzzles, that while not supremely difficult, break up the action enough that it interferes with the fun factor.

 

[Darth Roxor]

3. the original control scheme is crap. It's just crap.

4. DOOM 2 is better in many ways.

What the hell is this fake news.

I replayed Doom 1 & 2 very recently, and I played both with the original controls, i.e. without any mouse, just arrows + ctrl to shoop + alt to strafe, and it works as well as it did 20 years ago.

As for Doom2 being "better in many ways" that's the fakest of the fake news that people tend to peddle. You are bothered by the "gimmick" levels in Doom1, but the fact that half of Doom2 are gimmick levels doesn't bother you? The monster closet level design doesn't bother you? The double-barrel that makes almost all other guns obsolete? The retardo chaingunners at every corner?

I was pretty perplexed when I revisited Doom2 and realised that a lot of the shit that people slam Doom3 for is absolutely as true for this one as well.

 

[Mustawd]

Ok ok ok. FFS, I take it back. I’ll replay DOOM2 again and revisit my opinion.

 

[Darth Roxor]

good

and dont ever do that again

 

[Big Wrangle]

Strife was better anyway.