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NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out

Dux

Arcane
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May 26, 2016
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635
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Much has been said about the NWN 2 OC already and I also concur that it is the digital manifestation of syphillis.

RANT INCOMING GET YOUR HEAD DOWN!!

I've been trying to get into MotB recently and I have to say that even though the writing and whatnot is much better than the OC, it still reeks of Obsidian's flaws, in my opinion. The whole autistic influence system with the companions, for example, and conveyor belt of awkward conversations you have with various cardboard cutouts posing as characters. It's a jarring experience where the level of writing seems to go up and down like a rollercoaster. It's a sad theme for Obsidian - a company that has unrightfully garnered a reputation as being somehow superior to their contemporaries. They're sometimes better - as was proven in the case of New Vegas - but they never could leave that bubble of theirs. What I mean is that their overrall style is so goddamn hamfisted - except for New Vegas, to a degree. I think that was because it was a Fallout game. The DLCs showed worrying signs, though.

I'll never understand any of it, honestly. There aren't many good modern CRPGs out there and I really try to appreciate MotB but even though it's the best fantasy type game Obsidian has made, it still has that black mark of their making. It permeates nearly every conversation and quest like an oppressive miasma. It leads to much frustration, simply because the narrative keeps smacking me over the head and shouting in my ear. I tell you, subtlety is a very fine art and it's one that is often misinterpreted; that includes Obsidian. It's a shame because if anyone could possibly bring about a real positive change in the CRPG climate, it would have been them. However, they're just too rigid and stubborn in the way they do things, unfortunately. The NWN 2 OC is a piece of shit. It's linear and it's juvenile. Fan-fiction tier. MotB is also quite linear but it tries to be more adult, more complex. Yet, I've never really felt like I had the opportunity to truly digest it simply because Obsidian often have this ADHD mentality in their games. I mean, just let me breathe and relax for a minute. You don't need to dump information on me all the time. You don't need to beat me over the head with really obvious plot points. You don't need to make companions into passive aggressive attention whores that wear you down with exposition. You don't need to have overly dramatic or morose try-hard villains that feel they belong in anime. The plot is supposed to be inbedded in the bread of the game. It's supposed to reveal itself naturally and gradually the further you go: a seamless experience, where your own decisions affect your destination - to a degree. But, it's easy to feel like a guest in an Obsidian game, riding shotgun. I guess that's my personal point.

I know a lot people love the sort of stuff Obsidian does but it rubs me the wrong way, for some reason. That being said MotB is still planets apart in terms of quality from the Nuremberg trial that is the OC.
 
Self-Ejected

Harry Easter

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819
I found the OC quite fun. Of course it has a lot of the clichés of the FR, but the Realms are all about clichés and adventuring. And the story was an adventure, in which a lot of stuff happened. You can say what you want, but at least it never became boring (well, except the Orc-Caves. I forget that they exist), the NPC's were strong archetypes and we had some twists along the way.

There was so much content in this game, it was baffling. But we didn't need that ending. It's lucky that they put out MoTB right after the maingame.
 
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Unwanted

SlumLord

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Dux
Obsidian only comes off as good -- and is grudgingly worshiped by grognars -- because their competition is steaming garbage. Look how low the bar is when a company that's been open for 15+ years keeps pumping out products which are objectively worse and less fun than the properties they're supposed to be based on (and which came out 20+ fucking years ago).

None of the CRPG houses of today (Obsidian, Inexile, Larian, Bethesda) have managed to put together a coherent product with PS:T's narrative depth, ToEE's combat system, Fallout's atmosphere, Mount & Blade's sense of scale, and VtM:Bloodline's reactivity, while wrapping it together into a seamless package that won't melt your PC and have it sink through the Earth before emerging in Beijing. You can break down any game's systems with objectively quantifiable metrics, and it's pitiable that today's products by self-anointed 'oldskool devs' aren't nearly as fun and immersive as their older works. Nor is their inability to construct a good game excusable in any way, especially consider that they have godlike tools at their disposal which boost productivity by orders of magnitude.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but after it died the Holy Roman Empire at least tried to LARP into the succession slot while still respecting the source material, which is more than can be said for today's CRPGs that end up as hollowborn abomination made deformed by their creators' lack of awareness and endless pandering.

Fuck this gay Earth for making me so jaded and unable to enjoy vidya.

:flamesaw:
 

Terelyn

Literate
Joined
Oct 13, 2018
Messages
6
I'll never understand any of it, honestly. There aren't many good modern CRPGs out there and I really try to appreciate MotB but even though it's the best fantasy type game Obsidian has made, it still has that black mark of their making. It permeates nearly every conversation and quest like an oppressive miasma. It leads to much frustration, simply because the narrative keeps smacking me over the head and shouting in my ear. I tell you, subtlety is a very fine art and it's one that is often misinterpreted; that includes Obsidian. It's a shame because if anyone could possibly bring about a real positive change in the CRPG climate, it would have been them. However, they're just too rigid and stubborn in the way they do things, unfortunately. The NWN 2 OC is a piece of shit. It's linear and it's juvenile. Fan-fiction tier. MotB is also quite linear but it tries to be more adult, more complex. Yet, I've never really felt like I had the opportunity to truly digest it simply because Obsidian often have this ADHD mentality in their games. I mean, just let me breathe and relax for a minute. You don't need to dump information on me all the time. You don't need to beat me over the head with really obvious plot points. You don't need to make companions into passive aggressive attention whores that wear you down with exposition. You don't need to have overly dramatic or morose try-hard villains that feel they belong in anime. The plot is supposed to be inbedded in the bread of the game. It's supposed to reveal itself naturally and gradually the further you go: a seamless experience, where your own decisions affect your destination - to a degree. But, it's easy to feel like a guest in an Obsidian game, riding shotgun. I guess that's my personal point.

I know a lot people love the sort of stuff Obsidian does but it rubs me the wrong way, for some reason. That being said MotB is still planets apart in terms of quality from the Nuremberg trial that is the OC.

I don't understand it either... If it feels like a chore to you, play Bethesda games instead. :roll:
 

Infinitron

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I'll never understand any of it, honestly. There aren't many good modern CRPGs out there and I really try to appreciate MotB but even though it's the best fantasy type game Obsidian has made, it still has that black mark of their making. It permeates nearly every conversation and quest like an oppressive miasma. It leads to much frustration, simply because the narrative keeps smacking me over the head and shouting in my ear. I tell you, subtlety is a very fine art and it's one that is often misinterpreted; that includes Obsidian. It's a shame because if anyone could possibly bring about a real positive change in the CRPG climate, it would have been them. However, they're just too rigid and stubborn in the way they do things, unfortunately. The NWN 2 OC is a piece of shit. It's linear and it's juvenile. Fan-fiction tier. MotB is also quite linear but it tries to be more adult, more complex. Yet, I've never really felt like I had the opportunity to truly digest it simply because Obsidian often have this ADHD mentality in their games. I mean, just let me breathe and relax for a minute. You don't need to dump information on me all the time. You don't need to beat me over the head with really obvious plot points. You don't need to make companions into passive aggressive attention whores that wear you down with exposition. You don't need to have overly dramatic or morose try-hard villains that feel they belong in anime. The plot is supposed to be inbedded in the bread of the game. It's supposed to reveal itself naturally and gradually the further you go: a seamless experience, where your own decisions affect your destination - to a degree. But, it's easy to feel like a guest in an Obsidian game, riding shotgun. I guess that's my personal point.

Broke: Today's Obsidian is a radical departure from the studio that made Mask of the Betrayer

Woke: Today's Obsidian is the logical evolution of the studio that made Mask of the Betrayer
 
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Terelyn

Literate
Joined
Oct 13, 2018
Messages
6
Broke: Today's Obsidian is a radical decline and departure from the studio that made Mask of the Betrayer.

Woke: Today's Obsidian is the logical evolution of the studio that made made Mask of the Betrayer.

The first has more truth to it. MotB is one of their best, along with KotOR 2.
 

Terelyn

Literate
Joined
Oct 13, 2018
Messages
6
I've been trying to get into MotB recently and I have to say that even though the writing and whatnot is much better than the OC, it still reeks of Obsidian's flaws, in my opinion.

It's their style. What's your problem with the companion influence system?

It's a sad theme for Obsidian - a company that has unrightfully garnered a reputation as being somehow superior to their contemporaries.

They are/were better, than many of their contemporaries. Even if you didn't like PoE, we shouldn't diminish their past merits because of their recent titles.
 
Unwanted

SlumLord

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It's their style. What's your problem with the companion influence system?
I agree with you. I think the influence system Obsidian makes use of is a fun game mechanic (I like it - sue me). The problem people have with companions isn't the mechanics themselves, it's the writing (which, to be fair, was quite good in MotB).

They are/were better, than many of their contemporaries.
Yes, because their contemporaries are garbage. Don't compare Obsidian to Inexile - compare it to the Black Isle era which gave us Fallout and Arcanum. They come painfully short of that illustrious pedigree.

Even if you didn't like PoE, we shouldn't diminish their past merits because of their recent titles.
See, this is exactly why we keep getting shittier and shittier games from them - because no one keeps them accountable. I hope PoE2's poor sales will serve as a kick to the nuts, and wake them up. A pity it took this long.
 

Terelyn

Literate
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Messages
6
It's their style. What's your problem with the companion influence system?
I agree with you. I think the influence system Obsidian makes use of is a fun game mechanic (I like it - sue me). The problem people have with companions isn't the mechanics themselves, it's the writing (which, to be fair, was quite good in MotB).

OC had problems with the influence system, but MotB doesn't, IMO.
Dux seems to be mostly complaining about the short campaign's constricted and fairly linear narrative. I didn't feel that the main narrative was overbearing, because it's suppose to be it's main appeal, as there's little side content.


Yes, because their contemporaries are garbage. Don't compare Obsidian to Inexile - compare it to the Black Isle era which gave us Fallout and Arcanum. They come painfully short of that illustrious pedigree.

Yea, they could improve in a lot of areas, but i still love most of their games. Granted, their recent titles were a bit of a letdowns for me. I hope they will pull themself together.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

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In MotB I was never able to win the barbarian "ice water challenge" in town. What was it that you gained if you did?
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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It's pretty much not doable legit unless you're a Barbarian yourself. You can have Gann cast Energy Immunity: Cold on you and time it so that the spell hits you when you're in the tub, then you're not taking damage. The rewards is some cold resistance ring or something, the rewards for the STR challenge is a STR belt +10, fighting challenge you get Sergey's sword. Doing all challenges successfully you'll get a feat that makes barbarian rage better iirc.
 

Nalenth

Novice
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Jul 7, 2015
Messages
30
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Hungary
It's a sad theme for Obsidian - a company that has unrightfully garnered a reputation as being somehow superior to their contemporaries. They're sometimes better - as was proven in the case of New Vegas - but they never could leave that bubble of theirs..

You have described nearly every story-heavy CRPGs, not just Obsidian ones. Many people have this "problem" with PS:T, despite being one of the best in its genre thanks to its narrative depth.

What I mean is that their overrall style is so goddamn hamfisted - except for New Vegas, to a degree. I think that was because it was a Fallout game.

New Vegas is an open-world RPG, maybe that's why.

But, it's easy to feel like a guest in an Obsidian game, riding shotgun. I guess that's my personal point.

IMO, this is much more pronounced in JRPGs.

I know a lot people love the sort of stuff Obsidian does but it rubs me the wrong way, for some reason.

Maybe their games are not for you? There are many RPGs with more open-ended experience, even newer ones. I recommend playing Underrail, it's excellent.
 

Dux

Arcane
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Maybe their games are not for you? There are many RPGs with more open-ended experience, even newer ones. I recommend playing Underrail, it's excellent.

You're right, of course. I just tend to give Obsidian a hard time because I'm bit of an asshole.

However, one opinion I'll always stand by - as far as their writing is concerned - is the unsettling compulsion to turn the protagonist into a walking plot device. You either have a silver shard in your chest, or you're a metaphysical wound in the Force (wut?) or you're a Spirit Eater, for some reason. It makes it easier to guide or force the narrative, I guess, but it's still the easy way out for writers. It borders on being lazy. To create a genuine blank slate of a character and have it form properly within the game world itself is tougher to pull off, but far more rewarding. As a character you are what do or don't do: that is the true mark of a great RPG. Not what you are made into for whatever arbitrary reason the writer has cooked up. This is not Obsidian's sole fault, however. It's a widespread issue in RPGs.

As for Underrail, played it and enjoyed it.
 

Nalenth

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However, one opinion I'll always stand by - as far as their writing is concerned - is the unsettling compulsion to turn the protagonist into a walking plot device. You either have a silver shard in your chest, or you're a metaphysical wound in the Force (wut?) or you're a Spirit Eater, for some reason. It makes it easier to guide or force the narrative, I guess, but it's still the easy way out for writers. It borders on being lazy. To create a genuine blank slate of a character and have it form properly within the game world itself is tougher to pull off, but far more rewarding. As a character you are what do or don't do: that is the true mark of a great RPG. Not what you are made into for whatever arbitrary reason the writer has cooked up. This is not Obsidian's sole fault, however. It's a widespread issue in RPGs.

Personally, i don't have a problem with that. I don't see it as an issue, rather an opportunity. Obsidian did some interesting twists to the standard "Chosen One" trope.
It can be used badly, of course. Still, it isn't the biggest issue in Skyrim for example. (It has bigger problems.)
I like the ones where you play as a truly blank slate character, too. Yea, it's tougher to pull off.
 
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eggdogg

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In the middle of my seemingly annual run through nwn2. I liked the game from the get go more than most on the dex but this particular run has been way more fun than before. Don't know why but for me nwn2 is a game that just keeps giving.
 

DavidBVal

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Don't know why but for me nwn2 is a game that just keeps giving.

I can say nwn2 is one of the games I've sunk more hours into, but not because of the OC. Mostly I played online servers, community-generated content and fooled around with the toolset (never completed anything but still, it was a lot of fun).
 

Jack Of Owls

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I recently installed about 10 user-made modules for NWN 2 because I really enjoyed the last two expansions for it, and Mysteries of Westgate + Misery Stone. The OC was crap though. Gave up about 1/3 into the game. However, Pathfinder Kingmaker may have spoiled me from ever being able to go back to NWN 2 with its horrible companion AI that shoot their wads all at once if they're spellcasters. Half the time I'd be wondering what the fuck was going on with such a cluster fuck of hackneyed companion AI filling my screen with so much blinding multi-colored exploding glowstick shit and splattering chemical diarrhea. NWN 1 was MUCH Better in that regard even if they used similar mechanics.
 

Cael

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I recently installed about 10 user-made modules for NWN 2 because I really enjoyed the last two expansions for it, and Mysteries of Westgate + Misery Stone. The OC was crap though. Gave up about 1/3 into the game. However, Pathfinder Kingmaker may have spoiled me from ever being able to go back to NWN 2 with its horrible companion AI that shoot their wads all at once if they're spellcasters. Half the time I'd be wondering what the fuck was going on with such a cluster fuck of hackneyed companion AI filling my screen with so much blinding multi-colored exploding glowstick shit and splattering chemical diarrhea. NWN 1 was MUCH Better in that regard even if they used similar mechanics.
You can ask them not to shoot 20,000 fireballs at the first twitch of a rabbit's ear, you know...
 

laclongquan

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... You either have a silver shard in your chest, or you're a metaphysical wound in the Force (wut?) or you're a Spirit Eater, for some reason. It makes it easier to guide or force the narrative, I guess, but it's still the easy way out for writers. It borders on being lazy. To create a genuine blank slate of a character and have it form properly within the game world itself is tougher to pull off, but far more rewarding. As a character you are what do or don't do: that is the true mark of a great RPG. Not what you are made into for whatever arbitrary reason the writer has cooked up. This is not Obsidian's sole fault, however. It's a widespread issue in RPGs.

Ifyou dont like the plots, then you dont like the plot. But know what you are asking for.

Because doing as you propose: "a genuine blank slate of a character and have it form properly within the game world itself" lead us to Fallout 3 "have you seen my father? he's amiddle aged man". and Fallout 4"chasing after the son after the spouse get killed off" (nothing special about any of that).

Doing blank slate is a HEAVY test to the writers' ability in an industry awash with mediocre writers, judging by novels' standard.

Plot devices have it nice: you have some concrete form and expected route to follow in designing your character and their personal history of advancement. It's a big help, Iam telling you.

Although I argue that Spirit Eater is a very nice way to force Main character onto Quest of Enlightenment. Not cliche at all.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
is there a way to cast spells without it being 'sticky' selection similar to IE games?
e.g., press spell hotkey, then select target

eh, seems like it works if you have no target. This is really clunky, is there a way to clear your target? There's no shortcut for it in options
Lilura
 

Dux

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Getting alerts on this old ass thread made me reflect further on my beef with Obsidian's game design.

I started to mull over Baldur's Gate and why I love it so much. For one thing, I just don't appreciate being railroaded in RPGs. I guess that's the main gripe I have. I want to be able to just soak in the atmosphere and explore on my own time. Baldur's Gate allows me to do that but it also has a storyline which is deeply connected with my character. It's a real driving force. Whether it's vengeance, self-preservation or altruism: the reason for going after Sarevok can be interpreted in many ways. At the very least, there's something driving - not pushing - you forward.

In contrast, what is the motivation behind all the nonsense you have to endure in the NWN2 OC? What's driving you forward? What's your personal investment in that story? Well, there's shiny shards. One of them is lodged in your chest. I guess that's the reason why you do things in that game. You literally have a Macguffin embedded in your chest that you can't really remove without dying. That's your motivation right there. I mean, that's great, right? Why are people after you? Because of you? Nope. Because of the shard inside you. That's the only reason why things are happening to you. Hypothetically, let's just say that by some miracle the shard had been discovered in good time and subsequently removed. Now, what ties does the main character have with the plot? None. Absolutely none. You know, if this game had been designed in such a way that it is the coming of the Shadow King that is the focal point of the story - I could at least respect that. That I go through the motions because I don't want an ancient entity engulfing everything in shadow and death - myself included. Simple but reasonably effective. But nope, there always has to be a plot device holding you hostage.

MotB is in the same boat. What is your driving motivation for travelling long distances and fighting seemingly impossible odds against ancient beings? Even risk your IRL sanity in the Skein? Is it vengeance? Duty? Or is it because you're suddenly a Spirit Eater - a curse that can only be lifted when you've gone through a certain number of seemingly arbitrary obstacles? Let's just say Elminster, for some reason, finds you in the burial cavern and removes the curse - because he's a nice guy - and then teleports you out of there. Now, is there any reason whatsoever for you to investigate the story of the Betrayer and the Crusade? Any reason at all for even staying in that region? Any reason for caring about any of the shit that goes on? Would the main plot of the game really suffer in your character's absence? Or does it just get on with things? Would the story even care in the slightest if you were to go to Tethyr on vacation instead? Or would the main character of the game - Akachi - just go find another patsy? In any event, you ARE the Spirit Eater and now it's a race against the clock. Not unlike the latter half of Baldur's Gate 2, which I'm not overly fond of either. However, at least in that game you had real history with the antagonist. It wasn't just about your soul being retardedly transplanted. You wanted to defeat him for a myriad of reasons.

Baldur's Gate presented a big world for you to explore - in your own time - and when you wanted to get down to business it was perfectly clear WHAT you had to do and WHY you had to do it. Avert the crisis on the Sword Coast, open up the city of Baldur's Gate and defeat Sarevok. For whatever reason. It was up to you. Now, imagine if Baldur's Gate had only been Candlekeep - Beregost - Nashkel (Mines) - Bandit Camp - Cloakwood - Baldur's Gate - Candlekeep Redux - Bhaal Temple. In that order. And the reason for you going through all of that is because you're afflicted with acute magic AIDS and only Sarevok has the cure. Will you make it in time? #MissedOpportunities.
 

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