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What's the best combat encounter in a game ever?

Deleted Member 16721

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I think it was IWD where Detect Evil could be used to determine if a certain group was not who they seemed to be (I think they turned into lizardpeople or something, can't remember). I remember reading that and being blown away by it though. Also that a Paladin could detect it immediately if they had a conversation with the leader of the group. I love mechanics like that.
 
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Lilura

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See where I’m going with this?

No, I don't. PS:T has combat. Thus, its combat can be analyzed and critiqued (especially since it's a fucking AD&D game that followed BG, and was built on the same engine).

Likewise, Jagged Alliance 2 has writing. Thus, its writing can be analyzed and critiqued. In fact, Jagged Alliance 2 has lots of words. Not too many, though. It's concise and intelligent. There is nary a word of waffle. Even the lore is well-written: the background info accessible through the UI that details Arulco politics, geography and history. All of this can be analyzed and critiqued.

I could write an article on Jagged Alliance 2's writing just as I wrote an article on PS:T's combat.

EDIT - As an academic (I don't claim to be one), or at least someone with a degree of brainpower above that of the average 'Dexer, you should know that some scholars write essays on the etymology of single words, and others write entire books on the interpretation of a single historical quote.

To a layman with no interest in the subject, that may seem like "a profound waste of time." To a genius, that person may be regarded as a twaddler with a small mind. But to others, it's useful. And even if it wasn't, it's a mental exercise for the writer, and providing the content isn't harmful to society and humanity, no foul.

To get back to my particular brand of "twaddle", PS:T has combat. It's actually got quite a bit. I'd say a solid 30%, depending on how the player approaches the campaign.

Do they run away from all the aggro or square up to it? Do they like to experiment with the items, weapons and spells? Are they amused by Morte taunts? Are they exploring the optional dungeons like the Modron Maze and Under Sigil? Are they going with warrior, mage or thief TNO? Is wealth a concern to them? Is power-gaming (e.g., cleaning out the undead and rat collectives, post-questlines)? Do they want to find all the cool loot and easter eggs? All of this has a bearing on how much combat the player experiences.

So I wrote on article about 30% of the game, and that's a profound waste of time to you? I disagree.
 
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Kyl Von Kull

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See where I’m going with this?

No, I don't. PS:T has combat. Thus, its combat can be analyzed and critiqued (especially since it's a fucking AD&D game that followed BG, and was built on the same engine).

Likewise, Jagged Alliance 2 has writing. Thus, its writing can be analyzed and critiqued. In fact, Jagged Alliance 2 has lots of words. Not too many, though. It's concise and intelligent. There is nary a word of waffle. Even the lore is well-written: the background info accessible through the UI that details Arulco politics, geography and history. All of this can be analyzed and critiqued.

I could write an article on Jagged Alliance 2's writing just as I wrote an article on PS:T's combat.

EDIT - As an academic (I don't claim to be one), or at least someone with a degree of brainpower above that of the average 'Dexer, you should know that some scholars write essays on the etymology of single words, and others write entire books on the interpretation of a single historical quote.

To a layman with no interest in the subject, that may seem like "a profound waste of time." To a genius, that person may be regarded as a twaddler with a small mind. But to others, it's useful. And even if it wasn't, it's a mental exercise for the writer, and providing the content isn't harmful to society and humanity, no foul.

To get back to my particular brand of "twaddle", PS:T has combat. It's actually got quite a bit. I'd say a solid 30%, depending on how the player approaches the campaign.

Do they run away from all the aggro or square up to it? Do they like to experiment with the items, weapons and spells? Are they amused by Morte taunts? Are they exploring the optional dungeons like the Modron Maze and Under Sigil? Are they going with warrior, mage or thief TNO? Is wealth a concern to them? Is power-gaming (e.g., cleaning out the undead and rat collectives, post-questlines)? Do they want to find all the cool loot and easter eggs? All of this has a bearing on how much combat the player experiences.

So I wrote on article about 30% of the game, and that's a profound waste of time to you? I disagree.

Fair enough (perhaps I should have said it obscures more than it illuminates), although I can’t help but feel that your analysis of PS:T’s combat misses the forest for the trees. The combat sucks because you can’t die (in battle). Everything else stems from that. There’s no way to get from immortal PC to anything resembling BG or IWD. You could have great encounter design, a multitude of potential builds, full party creation, a huge bestiary overflowing with difficult enemies, and the whole panoply of D&D weapons and armor, but Planescape: Torment’s combat would still lack any semblance of challenge. Because there’s no struggle to survive. At most, it’s a struggle to avoid returning to the scene of the crime and painstakingly picking up your junk. Or a struggle to time your death before more than three of your companions go down.

So even if you’re spending 30% of PS:T in combat (presumably there’s some speed reading going on there), that combat is qualitatively different from pretty much any other CRPG (D&D or otherwise) because the stakes are so much lower. (Why is this different from savescumming your way through every encounter? I’m not totally sure, maybe because you could conceivably win nearly every fight by rising from the dead as many times as it takes to punch your enemy into submission, maybe because your resurrection is acknowledged in game). For all of its surface similarities with BG or IWD, the Lazarus mechanic kinda changes everything. When CHARNAME dies it’s game over right then and there, when TNO dies it’s often advantageous because it means your party can rest up before going back into battle.

When you optimize your characters in any other RPG, it’s a strategy. When you optimize in PS:T, it’s more of an aesthetic. Now, I cast no aspersions on your hobby (and if you’re committed to excellence for excellence’s sake then more power to you), but it’s nevertheless bizarre to read something like this:

tl;dr: You are going to get hit, and often. You will need to rely on Morte damage resistance, TNO regen, Grace clerical healing, immobilization spells and sheer damage output if you're going to survive tough mobs in Under Sigil and full-blown hordes in Carceri and Baator. Relying on AC alone, the party will be ripped a new one in short order. AC just doesn't cut the mustard like it does in BG and IWD.

I realize you’re (sort of) using figurative language, but the characterization of any combat in PS:T as high stakes just rings false. Of course you’re going to survive. More like “if you want to avoid some mild backtracking.”

Lest anyone take this as a broadside against PS:T, I love the game. However, the immortality mechanic means that combat is mostly there as a palate cleanser between walls of text (and a way to show TNO’s power progression). The dialogue choices are the meat of the gameplay. Anyone who approaches Planescape: Torment looking for a traditional Baldur’s Gate style D&D CRPG is doomed to disappointment (we all know it lives or dies by its story and role playing options), just as Baldur’s Gate is a real letdown if you go into it expecting tons of reactivity and attribute checks galore.
 
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Lilura

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You're overstating the Lazarus mechanic.

Yes, sometimes it's advantageous to die (it's a means of travel, it's a means of gaining quest experience, it's a means of regaining memories), but more often than not, taking damage and getting killed is disadvantageous. Especially to your party members who aren't immortal, don't regen as a rule (unless you twink them to), and get back up with their hit point pool depleted and in need of healing. And you don't get Grace until mid-game, there is no "rest until healed", and there are dungeon rest restrictions. And let's not pretend your average player will have lots of cash from early-mid unless they have foreknowledge of itemization or cheese vendor pick-pocketing, so you won't be swimming in charms unless you farm hive thugs and the like - which is combat.

This is why I covered offense (THAC0, ApR, Str bonus, itemization) and defense (AC, DR, HPs, Regen).

Basically, if you want to take on the mobs and feel like a badass, you will have to buff a bit, twink out your equipment, and employ a degree of tactics (however basic they are in comparison to BG and IWD). It's not very heroic dropping dead all the time and seeing your party start off with 1 HP each, as you try to take on the mob again. It can get tedious, too.

That's right, you will be ripped a new asshole if you don't take the combat seriously. A 300 HP embalmed TNO with max regen will get worn down by even a single Sigil abishai let alone mobs of Larval Worms, glabs/corns, constructs, hard-heads and curst mobs like the prison guards - if his killspeed isn't there (spell, backstab, ApR/THAC0/dmg). Morte is the only char that can tank them for decent duration. Dak'kon, Annah and Grace can be breathed on and killed.

(Funny. I'm pretty sure we've talking about this before, so I feel like I'm repeating myself.)
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

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I think you both raise good points. I tend to lean toward Kyl's side of things, I always took BG/IWD as better overall packages when it comes to appealing to someone that simply wants a great RPG to sink into for hours and hours with how easily replayable they are and that replayability makes the various combat scenarios much more fun to go through each time. PS:T is more narrative driven, it's an experience that has greater focus on the story it wants to tell.

But, the good thing about that era of RPGs was that you could easily make PS:T much more combat oriented if you so choose since the design was quite tight to account for such playstyles. Of course you won't have the same tactical depth of BG/IWD and while the tediousness of backtracking can ramp up, PS:T treats death as a side effect than as "Hopefully you remembered to save or you're replaying an hour+ worth again." Whether you see that as a positive or not depends on the player. I'm of the opinion that as long as it carries internal logic to the world its based around, I can accept it. I tend to prefer death being death, but I won't shun something different if it makes sense.
 
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Sacred82

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Only shit tier anal retentives like Lilura try to disassemble PS:T's combat to play it 'the right way' with it still being shit because, among other things, you can beat it with shit tactics and without cheese just fine.

My two above-linked write-ups have proved your shitpost to be a patent lie, dumbfuck.

Proved me wrong how? That you can't beat the game just fine without LARPing to the devs' intention?

I am the authoritative commentator for the Infinity Engine, not you. I get one million views per year, not you. When people want to know about Infinity Engine games, they go to my blog, not you. 10 years from now, people will be reading my commentary, not your shitposts and lies.

10 years from now people will rave about Fallout 4's combat and how they don't make em like that anymore, as has been established on Kodex time and time again. You're scrap metal, kid. No one is going to hit up your blog anymore even if you post noodz.
 

laclongquan

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And the kicker is, to discover that it was a diversion, you have to have high Wisdom. THus your usual party leader Bard talker might not discover it, but your Paladin or your Cleric would.

They're Diplomacy checks. And they're low, too (3-4). You only need about seven ranks in any skill to open up 95% of the quest experience points.

I think you are relying on an old skill checklist of old version. At version 2.01, my Bard, with high Dip in Insane and skyhigh in Heart of Fury, cant discover that line. But my Paladin with no point invested, just relying on 20 CHA (after buff) can discover it.
 
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Lilura

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I think you are relying on an old skill checklist of old version. At version 2.01, my Bard, with high Dip in Insane and skyhigh in Heart of Fury, cant discover that line. But my Paladin with no point invested, just relying on 20 CHA (after buff) can discover it.

Possibly. I haven't played HoF in a while. My solo sorc run discovered the line with nothing in diplomacy, too. Possibly, it's also a Cha check. There are three different dialogue outcomes with tri-tiered quest experience rewards (525, 700 and 1050 XP). I manually recorded them from actual runs of 2.01; they are not Weidu extractions. At the end of the day though, it does not matter and is mostly a flavor thing, since the consequences are trivial and kill experience can always make up for it. In fact, it is a joke that this "reactivity" was even cited, and calling the designer "a genius" for this is risible in the extreme, and just shows how low standards are for some people. There are far superior examples of reactivity even in IWD2, let alone in RPGs in general.
 

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Some of my favorite combats in the games I've played are:
New Vegas' final battle in Caesar's Camp when you do a Yes Man run. It was tense, my OP explosive antimaterial rifle wielding nutcase didn't just steamroll it, even the final one-on-one fight. Also, just the stakes of it make it a tense battle the first time through since you don't know how the story is going to play out.

Not a battle, but another interesting encounter imo is the REPCONN quest where you can actually get a very different outcome by not doing the obvious and sneaking past all the supermutants to get everyone out alright.

IWD's Yxunomei was a blast my first time through it, being almost impossible with the shit party I made, it marked a definite shift in overall difficulty of the game. I had to actually strategize my prebuffs and what spells my limited amount of casters could manage during the actual encounter. Finally succeeding on my tenth or so try was satisfying as hell.

The last few major combats of Trails in the Sky were ballsto the walls difficult at times, with the final boss taking the cake. But they weren't just difficult due to power creep or HP bloat (although the very final battle had plenty of those) but because enemies were abusing YOUR OWN tactics you had used throughout the game. Anti-Arts, stunlocks, massive area damage, knowing when to focus somebody's ridiculous damage output on a single enemy or on a whole group. It made me rethink my tactics and interrupts to try and stop them from getting off their ridiculous attacks.

The final fight against Sarevok at the end of BG1 was really good my first time through, especially since for some reason I had decided to solo the game as a Fighter/Thief, so not only was getting there super difficult, but the final battle against all of the major bosses, which had individually made me rethink my general approach to a combat encounter in some way, made the ending encounter feel like a culmination of all the different tactics and tactical shifts that I was forced to use to make it through the various points of the game. Not only that, but I actually had to use almost all of my consumables, especially my potions of invisibility, healing, speed and strength. Slowly picking them off one by one using sneak attacks made me feel like a single misstep and I'd have to start back over (which was true lol). Finally taknig Sarevok out after chasing him throughout the entire game and having to face off against the other bosses with some new twists (the traps that one can't disarm in the middle of the floor for one) made it all the more satisfying, almost a fuck you to the bosses that had, and still did, given a lot of trouble.
 

Roguey

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Even the lore is well-written
2Apfbte.png
:)
 

Jacob

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:despair:

Sure, JA2’s overall writing was good, especially the barks the bios and the aptitude test. The actual dialogue was serviceable. But even if it was Shakespeare, my point stands: doing a close reading of JA2’s dialogue would be a profound waste of time because the dialogue is not an important part of the experience—it’s just there for flavor (nothing wrong with that). It could be total garbage and JA2 would still be a great game. The same is true of any sufficiently combat heavy RPG; they don’t live or die by their writing.

See where I’m going with this?
I see your point since the beginning, but that's where you are WRONG. Every part of the game contributes to its overall GREATNESS. And JA2's dialogue, writing, the conversation mechanics, and the NPCs/RPCs does contribute to it. Not to say it is superb in itself, but without it, JA2 won't be JA2. Or do you think JA2 is simply some semi-realistic tactical game?

Now, let's compare to PS:T's combat. Does it contribute to its GREATNESS, or is it a hindrance that took people's enjoyment from it? Remember that Fallout has a rather simplistic combat too, but doesn't get the same criticism that PS:T got.

With all this into consideration, it is very understandable that people who doesn't consider Torment's story to be all that great would heavily criticize Torment and its niche popularity. Not-that-good story and gameplay-wise its crap too, why is this ever popular again?

EDIT: Also, I didn't noticed Lilura already addressed this.
 
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Jacob

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I was having some fun with the way I CAPITALIZED some words, don't mind it :M
 

Kyl Von Kull

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ow, let's compare to PS:T's combat. Does it contribute to its GREATNESS, or is it a hindrance that took people's enjoyment from it? Remember that Fallout has a rather simplistic combat too, but doesn't get the same criticism that PS:T got.

For all the shit PS:T’s combat gets, it absolutely contributes to the game’s greatness. Go play TTON and tell me how it feels to digest huge walls of text sequentially with nary a fight to break things up. It’s just that combat serves a different purpose in PS:T because it’s not the core gameplay (the core gameplay should be able to give you a game over, and that happens in some conversations and item interactions). Combat’s there for pacing and to showcase TNO’s power progression.

Given that you can’t die, I can understand why they didn’t invest resources in making the combat good, because it’s all window dressing.
 
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Lilura

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Given that you can’t die, I can understand why they didn’t invest resources in making the combat good, because it’s all window dressing.

I think you can tell Black Isle were going to try and make PS:T combat good. So many cool weapons, spells and items. So many unique enemies, like those rats that zap you when they start building up their numbers. Cool anims, sprites and crit VOs. Watching TNO swing that Hammer of Comminution at 4.5 ApR? Epic.

What happened was, they got sidetracked, ran out of time/money, or whatever. Somewhere along the line, they lost their way and forgot about AD&D/a game.

If the way PS:T turned out was truly their vision, then it's a retarded one.
 
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Sacred82

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PS:T was the biggest disappointment of the Renaissance era, after Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader.

I had no real expectations for PS:T after seeing the trailer at the start of BG except that it would try to be weird, but man, Lionheart :negative:

Now there was some real potential there mechanics wise that are easy to identify and it's clear to see where things went wrong.
 
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Lilura

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I had no real expectations for PS:T after seeing the trailer at the start of BG except that it would try to be weird

You mean this one?



Still, coming from BG I had pretty big expectations. The manual also had lots of combat-related stuff in there. And then the zombies weren't hostile and all the walls of text came up.

but man, Lionheart :negative: Now there was some real potential there mechanics wise that are easy to identify and it's clear to see where things went wrong.

That one was a soul-destroyer, yes.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Given that you can’t die, I can understand why they didn’t invest resources in making the combat good, because it’s all window dressing.

I think you can tell Black Isle were going to try and make PS:T combat good. So many cool weapons, spells and items. So many unique enemies, like those rats that zap you when they start building up their numbers. Cool anims, sprites and crit VOs. Watching TNO swing that Hammer of Comminution at 4.5 ApR? Epic.

What happened was, they got sidetracked, ran out of time/money, or whatever. Somewhere along the line, they lost their way and forgot about AD&D/a game.

If the way PS:T turned out was truly their vision, then it's a retarded one.

As time runs out you need to downscope, they downscoped the stuff that is a lot less meaningful in a game where you can’t die.

They definitely always wanted combat to look awesome. That’s half the point: a visible sense of progression. But when they were a few months away from release and they had to choose between building in more reactivity or building in better encounter design, or more classes for TNO, or more enemies to make the fighting less monotonous... well, I think they made the right call. You don’t have to like it, but I would rather have a game that does a some things incredibly well and some things quite poorly than a balanced mediocrity with okay combat and okay story/reactivity (the Pillars of Eternity design philosophy).

We’ve definitely had this conversation before. I remember saying the game actively mocks combatfags with the Modron cube, so some of this may have been deliberate. Or at the very least they made a virtue of necessity.

Either way, if you don’t find yourself deeply engaged by the story—if you don’t really enjoy the torrential text—better combat was not going to make PS:T redeemable. And if they’d both improved the combat and added a hell of a lot more of it, they would’ve alienated many of the people who loved the game. You can’t please everybody and even trying to please everybody is a recipe for disaster.

PS:T was the biggest disappointment of the Renaissance era, after Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader.

Except when it actually came out and you really liked it? Be careful, I hear the party frowns on revisionism.

If your goal is to metagame the shit out of everything for your blog while skipping most of the text, then sure, PS:T is going to be an underwhelming experience. But that’s like playing Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale without ever issuing a command during combat because you’ve got autoattack enabled.
 
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Sacred82

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That's the one, yes. May have been on FO or BG's CDs, or both, can't remember.

I think it was Saint_Proverbius who went full autist on how SPECIAL couldn't work in a real time game when that's definitely not the problem. The only thing that doesn't translate well is action points, but then the resolution is like DEX is in Pillars, not really anything lost there.​
 
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Lilura

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They definitely always wanted combat to look awesome. That’s half the point: a visible sense of progression.

I think the interesting combat-related itemization, and the enemies, along with the spell selection are solid evidence of an initial desire to make the combat good.

I remember saying the game actively mocks combatfags with the Modron cube, so some of this may have been deliberate.

The Modron Cube was deliberate. Under Sigil's random/rare item drops were also deliberate, and more subtle. But Curst? They ended up having worse combat than the great games they parodied.

If your goal is to metagame the shit out of everything for your blog while skipping most of the text, then sure, PS:T is going to be an underwhelming experience.

Except I didn't skip the text. I covered the writing and some of its reactivity. Paid it enough credit.
 
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Sacred82

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They definitely always wanted combat to look awesome. That’s half the point: a visible sense of progression.

I think the interesting combat-related itemization, and the enemies, along with the spell selection are solid evidence of an initial desire to make the combat good.

btw Guido lent some of his programming wizardry for the coding of some combat related spell effects, and felt underappreciated because they basically felt like that wasn't what the game was about.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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They definitely always wanted combat to look awesome. That’s half the point: a visible sense of progression.

I think the interesting combat-related itemization, and the enemies, along with the spell selection are solid evidence of an initial desire to make the combat good.

given that this stuff all has an aesthetic dimension, it could just as easily prove my point that they only cared how it looked. Remember, Feargus is the one who “fixed” the combat.


Except I didn't skip the text. I covered the writing and some of its reactivity. Paid it enough credit.

You’ve repeatedly said that the only correct way to play an RPG is to rush the dialogue and skip to the combat. When I made this same assertion in April it went unchallenged. I know I was referencing a specific post, but I can’t find it. Not sure if this reflects my own inability to use the search function while fighting my fellow Whole Foods shoppers for Thanksgiving morsels, or your policy of actively curating your post history (although maybe you only delete recently written posts that you deem hasty or excessively cruel).

Of course she isn't going to like PS:T. She said herself that she skips the dialogue in RPGs to get to the combat. Obviously this is not her kind of game.
.

But we did, indeed, have a much better version of this conversation five months ago. None are immune from the forces of decline.
 
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tl;dr people arguing about mediocre infinity engine games


 

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