Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[ortucis]

Restarting a game 3-4 times to get the "right" build vs having a respec option that allows changing one ability you don't want.

Hmm yeah, undermining teh RPG!

 

[Twiglard]

Good seeker goggles+recklessness+infused rathound leather+focus stim is enough to hit 50%. That's enough, I find. Though obviously you should try and get ambush going when possible so it can be 100%.

Fuck yeah thanks.

I basically consider this game finished when you enter DC area. DC is no longer a chill exploration combat game but an irritating timer based combat puzzle game. Fuck that shit. Before DC this is easily 9/10 game, and DC area is 5/10 at most.

That feeling of desolation though. Entering Hollow Earth for the first time. Atmospherefag galore. The game also has great art direction, overall desaturated with bright highlights. All without being grimdark. The first days/weeks Underrail came out there were totally no spoilers or player-made DC maps so I was left fumbling around trying to do something about the damn gate. Not just me. DC even got nerfed.

This is just another way of saying "I want people to waste time, preferably over 2 hr refund Steam limit."

You know you can copy over the underrail install directory from a friend and have the latest experimental version? That works with minimal effort involved. Actually it's a good way to get someone hooked on RPG's and buy them for real next time.

I don't know about you, but to me C&C is a pretty important aspect of RPGs.

There's not really much C&C overall. I'd consider it in terms of whether you explored the important stuff or left it behind. The factions are pretty inconsequential. Quests have solutions that best benefit you, or not. It doesn't matter what you choose except personal gain. The aftermath isn't important, if it exists at all.

 

[Parabalus]

Respeccing in any proper RPG undermines its very foundation, because no matter what kind of respeccing it is, either one time only or unlimited, players then won't have to worry about making significant decisions and can just "oh well, I can respec any (or that one) time, so I can just try to play this subpar build, and switch later on to an optimal one". Even if it's one time only, what's the point of having character creation at the beginning of the game? Maybe you should think twice before putting points into random shit just because you're feeling like it.

Not really, it's just a time grind. Instead of using your level 25 char to try out another build you have to sink several days into it to build it from scratch. There is no "significant" decision here, it's just a waste.

It's especially laughable to defend it when Underrail builds aren't balanced against each other.

 

[Black Angel]

You won't have that much benefit crafting before Depot A is finished. Shields are way less useful against melee regardless of the modulator. Crafting shields to kill Ironheads easier (Rail Crossing) is definitely viable in my book. For Depot A just make lots of magnesium grenades if you can. The doggies love them, especially if you get out of line of sight afterward. Or can just evade all the spit-balls and put melee attackers on fire.

I remembered someone saying they craft as early as Junkyard or even SGS, and they crafted a sniper rifle. Sykar, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, based on the areas, Depot A is better dealt with cleansing fire of molotovs and frag 'nades, and better survival with the help of probably Siphoner's or Mutated Dog's leather armor is what I'm thinking.

Sort of. JKK is sort of useless unless liking random junk tailor materials. Praetorian I didn't take, explanation in a second. Coretech has great electronic gear (fusion cores, efficiency modulators) for the better middle of the game. Why not take Praetorian? The fascist United Stations dudes have even better quality gun parts. Drones have a junky inventory, no way to sell really (maybe except ammo), and maybe something like a good fabric to buy (kinda like JKK) every several restocks.

Oh, I never really see it that way, comparing one faction to the others based on what merchandise they offer, but that's most probably because I haven't tried doing the questlines of factions other than JKK. The way I see it, each of the Oligarchy serve as a pathway that will be easier for specific builds:

• JKK is the way to go for characters who specialized in subterfuge
• Coretech is the best option for tech-junkie
• Praetorian is probably the most combat-centric faction meant for characters who charge toward encounters head-on

While I haven't tried either Coretech or Praetorian (the two playthroughs I finished were stealthy characters), playing JKK twice in a row and taking a glance at both Coretech's and Praetorian's questlines at the wiki kind of confirm my point of view. Even though the overall design of the game means it doesn't matter what faction you join with what build you're playing, I think each of the Oligarchy exists to show off how certain character archetype can handle certain situation better than any other builds.

Not really, it's just a time grind. Instead of using your level 25 char to try out another build you have to sink several days into it to build it from scratch. There is no "significant" decision here, it's just a waste.

It's especially laughable to defend it when Underrail builds aren't balanced against each other.

I don't know what to say to this. The fact that players ought to learn and earn a good build by themselves, instead of sweeping all character progressions under a rug with a single click of a button, is a problem? In an RPG? It's a fucking single-player game. Why should builds be balanced against each other? Who the fuck cares of that kind of shit except when it's a multiplayer game?

Also, the way you worded "using your level 25 char to try out another build" smells like you'd rather use cheat engine and give yourself 24 level-ups from the get-go to try different build, instead of earning the results of trying and making a build by playing it properly.

 

[Parabalus]

I don't know what to say to this. The fact that players ought to learn and earn a good build by themselves, instead of sweeping all character progressions under a rug with a single click of a button, is a problem? In an RPG? It's a fucking single-player game. Why should builds be balanced against each other? Who the fuck cares of that kind of shit except when it's a multiplayer game?

Also, the way you worded "using your level 25 char to try out another build" smells like you'd rather use cheat engine and give yourself 24 level-ups from the get-go to try different build, instead of earning the results of trying and making a build by playing it properly.

Of course it matters. How do you make a build?

You read feats, items and use your brain to cobble something together. Yet, no matter what you do, e.g. knife builds will be garbage compared to light fist, with the difference being a few feats. You have no idea of knowing that until witness it for yourself.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I basically consider this game finished when you enter DC area. DC is no longer a chill exploration combat game but an irritating timer based combat puzzle game. Fuck that shit. Before DC this is easily 9/10 game, and DC area is 5/10 at most.

On normal(come at me I don't give a fug) it has a nice "this is it, FORWARD!" vibe with exciting fluff everywhere. Quite good imo.

http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=3046.msg15959#msg15959

There are many reasons it won't be implemented. Respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG. Mistakes and imperfections are part of the experience.

That's just fucking stupid.

Most people are creating "SUPAH BUILD" by discussing it on forums and completely skipping the "mistakes and imperfections" part. The only people it punishes are people like me, who don't rely on guides and tips on how to make a perfect build on day 1 of playing. Allowing players to switch out an ability or two doesn't "UNDERMINE" anything.

You know what undermines the foundation of RPG? Shit UI and trading system where traders want same shit, only in different amount 90 mins later.
This is just another way of saying "I want people to waste time, preferably over 2 hr refund Steam limit."

Restarting two hours in is the mark of a great game you turd.

 

[Black Angel]

Of course it matters. How do you make a build?

You read feats, items and use your brain to cobble something together. Yet, no matter what you do, e.g. knife builds will be garbage compared to light fist, with the difference being a few feats. You have no idea of knowing that until witness it for yourself.

Umm, can't we just have fun with a build, no matter how bad it came out compared to other builds?

Spoiler

My first playthrough, my very first virgin cRPG experience on top of that, I rolled a character who tried pumping points into Guns, Crossbow, Throwing, and *all* PSI schools, with decent Stealth, decent social skills, and mediocre crafting. Believe it or not, while I certainly have difficulties along the way since I'm still learning on how to play this kind of game, the *only* wall I hit with this build was the final boss. I had the luxury of taking note of the reviews warning that DC would be such pain in the ass so I listened to them and spoiled all that I need to do down there (especially since I played the game in early 2016, so the version is still close to release's one and very unforgiving), and despite of all the difficulty I faced, the final boss it the real wall that put a frustration on me and realization that my build was real stupid. But from that experience, I learned three things:

1. I need to level up. I was trying to fight the final boss at level 19, just one level away from that one extra feat and attribute point. It was so crucial, that the moment I leveled up, took a relevant feat and put 1 extra point into PER (since I decided at midgame that I'll be focusing more on sniper rifles), the next battle(s) were so many close-calls before finally a victory that I deserved so much
2. Darkness is actually a real factor in a game like this. The realization was pretty late, but it was worth it. Around the time I'm scrounging for what little Oddities left to level up, I grabbed an NV goggle, and the moment I activated it when trying to snipe the final boss from so far away... it was such relieving moment for me to see that pathetic 40% THC goes all the way to 95%.
3. Finally, Ambush is pretty good. Since I luckily put some points into Metathermics and took Pyromaniac feat, I was able to easily set the final boss on fire and proc Ambush with all the hits. The tentacles didn't give me much trouble, thanks to a combination of spamming Electrokinesis + Telekinetic Punch to disable them, and utilizing both Pseudo-spatial Projection and Force Field, so I got pretty good vantage point to snipe the final boss's ass comfortably with the help of Pyrokinesis + Ambush without being raped by the tentacles

Is the build garbage? Certainly. Do I had fun? Hell yes. Do I look back and mourn the absence of respec option? Fuck no.

And then, there's also some sub-optimal builds like Fenix's stealthy sledgehammer. When people can make builds like that and have fun, why can't you and why you gotta complain about lack of respec?

 

[Silva]

So, they implemented running yet?

Or I'll have to endure 80% of my playthrough walking from corner to corner of screens?

 

[Sykar]

You won't have that much benefit crafting before Depot A is finished. Shields are way less useful against melee regardless of the modulator. Crafting shields to kill Ironheads easier (Rail Crossing) is definitely viable in my book. For Depot A just make lots of magnesium grenades if you can. The doggies love them, especially if you get out of line of sight afterward. Or can just evade all the spit-balls and put melee attackers on fire.

I remembered someone saying they craft as early as Junkyard or even SGS, and they crafted a sniper rifle. Sykar, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, based on the areas, Depot A is better dealt with cleansing fire of molotovs and frag 'nades, and better survival with the help of probably Siphoner's or Mutated Dog's leather armor is what I'm thinking.

Indeed I try to craft sniper rifles already when I go rescue Newton if possible though there is no guarantee that you will get the parts. Nevertheless pistols are a poor replacements for sniper rifles and they are usually not in stores before Junkyard. That and my sniper/psi build has 3 dexterity so ap cost for pistols is a bit too high for my taste.

So, they implemented running yet?

Or I'll have to endure 80% of my playthrough walking from corner to corner of screens?

Yeah it's called "Sprint".

 

[Silva]

Yeah it's called "Sprint".

For real?? Ill go back to it, then.

Edit: wait. Is this a joke?

 

[Parabalus]

Of course it matters. How do you make a build?

You read feats, items and use your brain to cobble something together. Yet, no matter what you do, e.g. knife builds will be garbage compared to light fist, with the difference being a few feats. You have no idea of knowing that until witness it for yourself.

Umm, can't we just have fun with a build, no matter how bad it came out compared to other builds?

Spoiler

My first playthrough, my very first virgin cRPG experience on top of that, I rolled a character who tried pumping points into Guns, Crossbow, Throwing, and *all* PSI schools, with decent Stealth, decent social skills, and mediocre crafting. Believe it or not, while I certainly have difficulties along the way since I'm still learning on how to play this kind of game, the *only* wall I hit with this build was the final boss. I had the luxury of taking note of the reviews warning that DC would be such pain in the ass so I listened to them and spoiled all that I need to do down there (especially since I played the game in early 2016, so the version is still close to release's one and very unforgiving), and despite of all the difficulty I faced, the final boss it the real wall that put a frustration on me and realization that my build was real stupid. But from that experience, I learned three things:

1. I need to level up. I was trying to fight the final boss at level 19, just one level away from that one extra feat and attribute point. It was so crucial, that the moment I leveled up, took a relevant feat and put 1 extra point into PER (since I decided at midgame that I'll be focusing more on sniper rifles), the next battle(s) were so many close-calls before finally a victory that I deserved so much
2. Darkness is actually a real factor in a game like this. The realization was pretty late, but it was worth it. Around the time I'm scrounging for what little Oddities left to level up, I grabbed an NV goggle, and the moment I activated it when trying to snipe the final boss from so far away... it was such relieving moment for me to see that pathetic 40% THC goes all the way to 95%.
3. Finally, Ambush is pretty good. Since I luckily put some points into Metathermics and took Pyromaniac feat, I was able to easily set the final boss on fire and proc Ambush with all the hits. The tentacles didn't give me much trouble, thanks to a combination of spamming Electrokinesis + Telekinetic Punch to disable them, and utilizing both Pseudo-spatial Projection and Force Field, so I got pretty good vantage point to snipe the final boss's ass comfortably with the help of Pyrokinesis + Ambush without being raped by the tentacles

Is the build garbage? Certainly. Do I had fun? Hell yes. Do I look back and mourn the absence of respec option? Fuck no.

And then, there's also some sub-optimal builds like Fenix's stealthy sledgehammer. When people can make builds like that and have fun, why can't you and why you gotta complain about lack of respec?

You'd probably sing a different tune if you did a xbow only build on release or something similar.

My first run through the game I had only TC and Meta, no stealth or any other offense. Had lots of fun going through Arke with that, since I could barely touch the robots I had to be creative. Afterwards I crit tchort for 2k and he died.

I don't want UR to add a respec, but I can understand people not wanting to waste time replaying the game to make minor edits to their builds.

You won't have that much benefit crafting before Depot A is finished. Shields are way less useful against melee regardless of the modulator. Crafting shields to kill Ironheads easier (Rail Crossing) is definitely viable in my book. For Depot A just make lots of magnesium grenades if you can. The doggies love them, especially if you get out of line of sight afterward. Or can just evade all the spit-balls and put melee attackers on fire.

I remembered someone saying they craft as early as Junkyard or even SGS, and they crafted a sniper rifle. Sykar, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, based on the areas, Depot A is better dealt with cleansing fire of molotovs and frag 'nades, and better survival with the help of probably Siphoner's or Mutated Dog's leather armor is what I'm thinking.

Indeed I try to craft sniper rifles already when I go rescue Newton if possible though there is no guarantee that you will get the parts. Nevertheless pistols are a poor replacements for sniper rifles and they are usually not in stores before Junkyard. That and my sniper/psi build has 3 dexterity so ap cost for pistols is a bit too high for my taste.

I did the same, you can shop around Junkyard for the SR parts, you'd have to get really unlucky not to be able to craft one.

 

[Twiglard]

It's especially laughable to defend it when Underrail builds aren't balanced against each other.

How can you expect a single-player RPG to be balanced? Isn't that all the fun? MMOs are balanced and an OP rolfstomp build is an "exploit". Sadly there was plenty of balancing done, see patch notes. Many times in terms of plain nerfs rather than looking at the bigger picture.

There are plenty of viable builds. Some more flexible with more micromanagement and risk-taking, others just charging head-on but weak in edge cases. Personal preference. I'm talking about DOMINATING of course, easier difficulties are a pushover after you have too many hours clocked ingame.

The overall build comparison is a result of all the gameplay intricacies, not the developer tiering them on purpose. Take the nerfed XAL-001 siphoner tabi+CAU armor build as an example.

 

[Barbalos]

It's especially laughable to defend it when Underrail builds aren't balanced against each other.

How can you expect a single-player RPG to be balanced? Isn't that all the fun? MMOs are balanced and an OP rolfstomp build is an "exploit". Sadly there was plenty of balancing done, see patch notes. Many times in terms of plain nerfs rather than looking at the bigger picture.

There are plenty of viable builds. Some more flexible with more micromanagement and risk-taking, others just charging head-on but weak in edge cases. Personal preference. I'm talking about DOMINATING of course, easier difficulties are a pushover after you have too many hours clocked ingame.

The overall build comparison is a result of all the gameplay intricacies, not the developer tiering them on purpose. Take the nerfed XAL-001 siphoner tabi+CAU armor build as an example.

I think there is some expectation of balance for a single player game as well. It's a bit lazy for the developer to leave one or two build paths extremely strong relative to the others (looking at you Bethesda stealth).

 

[Sykar]

The only thing that matters that any well thought out build can finish the game without save scumming. Perfect balance will never be achieved though that does not mean that you should not adjust the game when there are massive balance problems.

 

[Fenix]

Crossbow builds get the short end of the stick, at least on hard/dominating.

"I wish you was here"... then you would know better about short end of sticks. ))

Are pistols viable for the highest difficulty? If so, which ones?

They are. Problem is defence and low THC. Chemical are versatile, energy is cool. I made character that utilize both. The only problem is defence, and better defence is run around corner.
MAybe if you make it only for chem or energy you will get better result. In general require tactical plannig on a par with crossbows.

Does anyone (not savescummers) use leather armor? It has no fucking DT or DR.

Melee. When you need to survive only 1-2 strikes. Crossbows too.

I'm kind of bummed since I personally never encounter a cave hopper leather with quality close to 40, but I think that's the point of super-steel fibers.

Do you remember Dude told you about hopper cemetary? )

Beat Underrail once on Normal and then go right for DOMINATING.

No - start on Normal, play till you understand a system and/or want to reroll, then play on Hard, and then MAYBE, when you feel Hard is too easy for you... then... only then...

 

[epeli]

Anybody knows how the fuck can one stay stealthed around NPCs to pickpocket long enough to take all or almost all of their items *before* their eye turns red?
epeli what do you know about this?

Approach from behind, in dark areas and with high stealth. All three are equally important. You can also be creative: In uncontrolled zones and against hostiles (why else would you need ninja looter?) you can lure your victim into nice cave ear poison surprises. That -5 perception drops their detection to something horrible, making sneaking and stealing that much easier. You can also sneak to your target (or away after stealing) in turn-based mode, but you'll have to do the stealing in real-time.

 

[FeelTheRads]

My first run through the game I had only TC and Meta, no stealth or any other offense. Had lots of fun going through Arke with that, since I could barely touch the robots I had to be creative. Afterwards I crit tchort for 2k and he died.

Sounds like good fun to me?

It would be a bad thing if the game didn't allow you to be "creative". But since Underrail's mechanics are complex enough, it does, so I don't see the problem.

but I can understand people not wanting to waste time replaying the game to make minor edits to their builds.

Then it's easy: it's either not the game for them or they should live with what they did and see if they can "fix" the character from that point on.

Respeccing is pure decline. And if even here we start to not only accept it but ask for it then it's game over, man.

 

[Saduj]

If respeccing bothers you, can't you just not do it?

 

[orcinator]

If respeccing bothers you, can't you just not do it?

If respeccing is implemented Styg would lose his "least respect for player's time" trophy. Same reason why you gotta talk to that dude every time you need to leave the first vault.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Making cheating as part of the gameplay is now respecting the player's time.

I was wondering when you'd bring this "respecting player's time" retarded shit. Yet another vague thing along with "quality of life" everyone can use to motivate whatever shit they want.
Hey, if the game doesn't play itself it means it's not respecting my time.

Here's something to blow your mind: if you play something you don't enjoy you don't respect your time in the first place.

If respeccing bothers you, can't you just not do it?

If cheating doesn't bother you, can't you just use cheats instead of asking the developers to have them activated by default?

Oh right, you don't want to be called a cheater, you want your cheating ways to be as valid as any other.

 

[Fenix]

Respec is a cancer. Always was and always will be.
You can do it with third party tools anyway.
And no, it can't be included in game, because desing should take into considerations existance of respec.
In other words, respec is a post-modernist crap.
Run away from it.
If you have no time for a game - then just don't play.

 

[orcinator]

Hey, if the game doesn't play itself it means it's not respecting my time.

If a game could have been playing itself and no challenge would have been lost then it should have been playing itself(or not at all).

If cheating doesn't bother you, can't you just use cheats instead of asking the developers to have them activated by default?

Using cheat engine to respec

Spoiler

takes a lot of time
unless someone made a table for it

 

[Barbalos]

Fenix I agree, respec is unnecessary. If you make a gimp build, it's likely because you didnt understand the system.

Also, on another note, I haven't used cheat engine at all. The back tracking is slow, but I haven't felt the need to use that.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I actually enjoy the backtracking for the most part. Makes things interesting. Also, you can take the fucking train you know.

 

[toro]

This looks like an inviting circle jerk.

Here's something to blow your mind: if you play something you don't enjoy you don't respect your time in the first place.

Not everyone which is looking for respec options is doing it because it's not enjoying the game.

And no, it can't be included in game, because desing should take into considerations existance of respec.

No. The game design is not impacted by allowing re-specialization or not: you are not inventing new builds

If you have no time for a game - then just don't play.

This a stupid platitude.

Fenix I agree, respec is unnecessary. If you make a gimp build, it's likely because you didnt understand the system.

How could you really understand the system without at least one complete playthrough!? In most cases you cannot.



My 2 cents:

Complete respec is cancer because the causal chain is broken: you can have the optimal build for any situation or obstacle. There is no challenge and the game experience is basically meaningless (*except for bragging on the internet).

On the other hand, limited respec is actually desirable when the build is not fundamentally changed.

For example: At level 10 I've discovered that I've chosen one wrong, low synergy and ineffectual feat at level 5.

My options were:
1) Find a save before level 5. Spend several hours doing the exact same quests.
2) Abandon the run and restart the game. Spend even more hours to reach the same point in the game.
3) Use CE and modify that one singular feat.

Now, the choice is obvious, I did not like it but I did respec that one feat and I could carry on with my playthrough with minimal impact. I did not do it for bragging rights on the internet, I did it for me because my time is also important.

In the end, I think I'm just trying to say that respec is non-issue: there are no valid or invalid ways to play a single player game which already allows levels of difficulty.

20 years ago I was raging against all cheaters but then I realized that it doesn't matter. You can hold yourself to a higher moral standard but it's a waste of time to expect the same thing from others.