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I do not have much experience with D:OS, but Pillars of Eternity is a perfect example of a game where respeccing can be used to replace talents/abilites that are no longer useful past a certain point instead of actually correcting minor mistakes. It makes those choices made at earlier levels inconsequential, the overall value of talents/abilites through the entire game becomes irrelevant since you can just replace them in those parts of the game where they are least useful, etc. I don't want any of this bullshit in Underrail and it seems Styg doesn't want it either, which I am glad is the case.
Well, mate, I think at this point we can safely assume that Styg does care about policing players.
Anyway, you mentioned "PoEs" and "D:OS" by name. I don't how much are they worth their salt in terms of being an RPG, but I'm going to mention RPGs worth their salt that has no respeccing mechanics whatsoever: the original Fallouts, Arcanum, and Age of Decadence. And these are the RPGs closer to Underrail than the PoEs (dunno how close D:OS is to Underrail, aside from both are turn-based).
If you ever see people discussing dedicated builds, behind the posts describing super-optimal Assault Rifle, Crossbow, Unarmed build etc etc, you name it. Behind those builds are people who experienced beforehand, with blood, sweat, and tears, the rise and fall of those character builds. What Styg really meant with "mistakes and imperfections", or as I interpret it, is that there are many unique moments waiting to be experienced by players who sought to complete a build. The way Underrail structure its character progression through 3 layers of depths (increasing skills every level, taking a new feat every 2 levels, and increase one of your main stats every 4 levels) means that the experience of playing a level 1 character will be very different to the experience of playing a level 5 character, and so does when playing a level 10, 15, and so on, and so on. Could be that your character makes more mistakes at level 1-5, but past level 10 your character begin to get a hang of each and every situation.
While limited respec maybe easier to deal with (as I suggested in my previous post, a respec mechanic inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal's), a complete respec simply, as Styg himself said, undermines the very foundation of the RPG, because the experience of playing a low level character and developing that character in any direction will be missing completely. Like I said in my other post, a veteran player could experience a certain build, complete the game with it, and post that full build + its progression. But your average joe will have VERY different experience when they tried to play with that build. Hell, not even your average joe, even other veteran players might have completely different experience trying to play with a build posted by fellow veteran players. And then there's a hypothetical question: "What if a dedicated build posted by someone can be done in a different way, and come out much better?"
With complete respec, those experiences unique to individual average joe and fellow veteran players will be non-existent.
With complete respec, the question above will never be answered.
It doesn't matter what difficulty we're talking about.
Also, if you're going to argue that people shouldn't even care about other people respeccing to abuse crafting feats, once again, Styg does care about this. Do you have any counter-argument to Styg's notion that "respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG"?
Fallout and Arcanum are nothing like Underrail. They are storyfag RPGs where the combat is garbage and a secondary consideration, Underrail has almost no C&C and is all about combat.
I asked why you want to police how others play the game, not your justification against respecs (the "eat shit and better enjoy it" stuff, I read it). You play on normal, so it can't be elitist gatekeeping, so what is it?
I told you already, I don't want respecs added, I agree with Styg (toro put it together very nicely).
I do not have much experience with DoS, but Pillars of Eternity is a perfect example of a game where respeccing can be used to replace talents/abilites that are no longer useful past a certain point instead of actually correcting minor mistakes. It makes those choices made at earlier levels inconsequential, the overall value of talents/abilites through the entire game becomes irrelevant since you can just replace them in those parts of the game where they are least useful, etc. I don't want any of this bullshit in Underrail and it seems Styg doesn't want it either, which I am glad is the case.
I don't have strong feelings about respec therefore I'm not willing to read your wall of text.
I was talking about limited respec which could be helpful in some situations and you are talking about complete respec which I already agreed on being cancer (twice!). The discussion is retarded.
I just want to say one thing: respect is a non-issue considering that you can ignore it. It doesn't impact the design of the game, it's not forced upon the player ... in the end it doesn't matter.
I don't feel strong about these ideas but I will repeat what I already said:
1) Allow the player to experiment with any available feat until level up. Then on level up freeze his feat selection.
Example: I'm level 5 and on level up I can choose between 6+ feats. My idea is to let the player play with these available feats (but only one of them and any given time) until level up and then ask the player to choose a final feat from that set.
2) Allow 1 or more feat respec wildcards per run cause changing 1 or 2 feats will not fundamentally change you build.
Example: You made one wrong decision long time ago. Spend one wildcard to choose another feat and move on.
3) Unlock limited respec options on New Game++. As I said before, I'm against complete respec, I don't encourage it and I don't do it.
1) What about if players simply take crafting feats, use it to craft items, and then switch it upon asked to choose final feat? Will you propose having that items just gone like they never existed in the first place? And so, I have a better idea: make a save before you open your character sheet when you leveled up, pick a feat you want to experiment with, and go to town experimenting with it. If you feel good taking that feat, proceed. If not, reload the save, and take another feat, repeat the process until you're truly satisfied with your decision. I'm sure that while, at most, an hour of your time will be spent trying to decide whether or not that feat is worth taking *now* or *at all*, not even close to 30-minutes of game's progression will be lost if you ever decided to reload.
2) This is also, like above, one of those methods that can be abused in such a way that players could simply take a crafting feat very early in the game, and when they exhausted that feat's usefulness (example: taking Armor Sloping to craft the best lighter metal armor) they could use your proposed wildcard to switch it with a feat more useful for their build archetype (like Commando for AR builds). Without any solution to this problem, I can assure you not even Styg will bat an eye at such suggestion.
I was talking about limited respec, you are talking about complete respec. You cannot craft the best things just because you respec one feat. Stop exaggerating.
3) And once again, Underrail was never made with New Game+ in mind. Especially, as you can see, Styg and co had their hands full with balancing the game around not only one, but four (4!) difficulty modes. The only games I've played which has New Game+ were the Soulsborne series and those games, despite of having fixed difficulty, had so many problems of their own when it comes to New Game+ and beyond. Only Dark Souls 2 did anything meaningful with its New Game+ mechanic, and by itself it already has shitton of problems to deal with.
I never heard of these self-proclaimed advanced players begging Styg for respec mechanic until now. Mostly only new players who don't want to restart 2-hours worth of progress simply to correct a mere 15 skill points wasted into wrong skill.
There are many reasons it won't be implemented. Respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG. Mistakes and imperfections are part of the experience.
If you ever see people discussing dedicated builds, behind the posts describing super-optimal Assault Rifle, Crossbow, Unarmed build etc etc, you name it. Behind those builds are people who experienced beforehand, with blood, sweat, and tears, the rise and fall of those character builds. What Styg really meant with "mistakes and imperfections", or as I interpret it, is that there are many unique moments waiting to be experienced by players who sought to complete a build. The way Underrail structure its character progression through 3 layers of depths (increasing skills every level, taking a new feat every 2 levels, and increase one of your main stats every 4 levels) means that the experience of playing a level 1 character will be very different to the experience of playing a level 5 character, and so does when playing a level 10, 15, and so on, and so on. Could be that your character makes more mistakes at level 1-5, but past level 10 your character begin to get a hang of each and every situation.
While limited respec maybe easier to deal with (as I suggested in my previous post, a respec mechanic inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal's), a complete respec simply, as Styg himself said, undermines the very foundation of the RPG, because the experience of playing a low level character and developing that character in any direction will be missing completely. Like I said in my other post, a veteran player could experience a certain build, complete the game with it, and post that full build + its progression. But your average joe will have VERY different experience when they tried to play with that build. Hell, not even your average joe, even other veteran players might have completely different experience trying to play with a build posted by fellow veteran players. And then there's a hypothetical question: "What if a dedicated build posted by someone can be done in a different way, and come out much better?"
With complete respec, those experiences unique to individual average joe and fellow veteran players will be non-existent.
With complete respec, the question above will never be answered.
Seriously, aren't you fuckers were among those people who crave the experience of coming back to starting areas and mow down low level enemies like the murder hobos you are? After previously, in early game, those motherfuckers gave you real hard time and surprise buttrape? I doubt complete respec will satisfy that craving which only lurks within the bottom of the hearts of hardcore RPG players.
And until this point, none of you fuckers answered my challenge:
Alright, folks, I think it's time for someone to bring this up. Can anybody here mention, by name and how, any RPG worth their salt that gives their players an option to respec, at all? Or at least, a method of respec in other games that will probably fit like a glove for an RPG like Underrail.
Tales of Maj'Eyal has a respec mechanic of some sort. Basically, the game allows you to revert (iirc) 2 or 3 levels worth of character progression, but ONLY in towns. The thing is, Tales of Maj'Eyal is a completely different game than Underrail, and it's a roguelike too. Each leveling up in ToME give 3 attribute points, 1 class talent point, and 1 generic talent point. It's why the respeccing method for ToME works since there's not much numerical points involved, and I can slightly see this method work for Underrail. You can ONLY revert 1 leveling up, and you gotta go to towns to do that, or to thematically fit the whole game, just one town at that. Thing is, would you people gonna be able to handle all the backtracking should you do mistakes time and time again?
Fallout and Arcanum are nothing like Underrail. They are storyfag RPGs where the combat is garbage and a secondary consideration, Underrail has almost no C&C and is all about combat.
"Storyfag RPG where the combat is garbage and a secondary consideration" sounds more like PS:T, to be honest. I disagree that Fallout and Arcanum are "nothing" like Underrail. While I also don't agree with the notion that Underrail *tries* to be Fallout/Arcanum, A LOT of features presents in Underrail are certainly inspired by those two games by Tim Cain, only that Underrail does those features a lot better.
Also, saying Underrail has *almost* no C&C is pretty dishonest, but I guess before we discuss whether or not there's C&C in Underrail, we should discuss what C&C really means to either of us.
I asked why you want to police how others play the game, not your justification against respecs (the "eat shit and better enjoy it" stuff). You play on normal, so it can't be elitist gatekeeping.
I'm not policing anybody here. ortucis were whining about some minor mistakes, I'm telling him the best way to deal with that situation. You were giving me some perspective that, IMO, nothing alike of ortucis's situation, while toro were trying to present arguments in favor of respeccing in Underrail, I was merely giving counter-arguments to those, does that sounds like policing how other people playing to you? Especially since I'm trying to convince you guys that the reality of situation is that it's actually Styg himself who's doing anything remotely close to "policing how others playing *his* game".
Also, where the fuck did I tell anybody to eat shit and better enjoy it? Again, it's dishonest to summarize my posts that way. Is mere 15 wasted skill points, when the guy barely get past Junkyard, that much of a shitty situation?
I just want to say one thing: respect is a non-issue considering that you can ignore it. It doesn't impact the design of the game, it's not forced upon the player ... in the end it doesn't matter.
1) What about if players simply take crafting feats, use it to craft items, and then switch it upon asked to choose final feat? Will you propose having that items just gone like they never existed in the first place? And so, I have a better idea: make a save before you open your character sheet when you leveled up, pick a feat you want to experiment with, and go to town experimenting with it. If you feel good taking that feat, proceed. If not, reload the save, and take another feat, repeat the process until you're truly satisfied with your decision. I'm sure that while, at most, an hour of your time will be spent trying to decide whether or not that feat is worth taking *now* or *at all*, not even close to 30-minutes of game's progression will be lost if you ever decided to reload.
We can begin to discuss what constitute save"scumming" here and now, but for the sake of going along with your bullshit, I'm just going to say that it fucking does because it doesn't have any problems I described like respecs that you proposed will inevitable have.
2) This is also, like above, one of those methods that can be abused in such a way that players could simply take a crafting feat very early in the game, and when they exhausted that feat's usefulness (example: taking Armor Sloping to craft the best lighter metal armor) they could use your proposed wildcard to switch it with a feat more useful for their build archetype (like Commando for AR builds). Without any solution to this problem, I can assure you not even Styg will bat an eye at such suggestion.
I was talking about limited respec, you are talking about complete respec. You cannot craft the best things just because you respec one feat. Stop exaggerating.
I was going completely by the method you proposed, you motherfucker. What prevents the players from simply using your *LIMITED* feat respec wildcards to swap a crafting feat after they craft stuff? You're the one who specified, "Example: You made one wrong decision long time ago. Spend one wildcard to choose another feat and move on." I was simply going with this example and present to you a scenario that CAN and WILL happen in the game.
3) And once again, Underrail was never made with New Game+ in mind. Especially, as you can see, Styg and co had their hands full with balancing the game around not only one, but four (4!) difficulty modes. The only games I've played which has New Game+ were the Soulsborne series and those games, despite of having fixed difficulty, had so many problems of their own when it comes to New Game+ and beyond. Only Dark Souls 2 did anything meaningful with its New Game+ mechanic, and by itself it already has shitton of problems to deal with.
How the fuck does the post above, does NOT mean UR must implement respec on NG+? Why did you propose method #3 in the first place? If you really didn't meant for UR to implement respec on NG+, then why did you specified "Unlock limited respec options on New Game++"?
I never heard of these self-proclaimed advanced players begging Styg for respec mechanic until now. Mostly only new players who don't want to restart 2-hours worth of progress simply to correct a mere 15 skill points wasted into wrong skill.
There are many reasons it won't be implemented. Respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG. Mistakes and imperfections are part of the experience.
If you ever see people discussing dedicated builds, behind the posts describing super-optimal Assault Rifle, Crossbow, Unarmed build etc etc, you name it. Behind those builds are people who experienced beforehand, with blood, sweat, and tears, the rise and fall of those character builds. What Styg really meant with "mistakes and imperfections", or as I interpret it, is that there are many unique moments waiting to be experienced by players who sought to complete a build. The way Underrail structure its character progression through 3 layers of depths (increasing skills every level, taking a new feat every 2 levels, and increase one of your main stats every 4 levels) means that the experience of playing a level 1 character will be very different to the experience of playing a level 5 character, and so does when playing a level 10, 15, and so on, and so on. Could be that your character makes more mistakes at level 1-5, but past level 10 your character begin to get a hang of each and every situation.
While limited respec maybe easier to deal with (as I suggested in my previous post, a respec mechanic inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal's), a complete respec simply, as Styg himself said, undermines the very foundation of the RPG, because the experience of playing a low level character and developing that character in any direction will be missing completely. Like I said in my other post, a veteran player could experience a certain build, complete the game with it, and post that full build + its progression. But your average joe will have VERY different experience when they tried to play with that build. Hell, not even your average joe, even other veteran players might have completely different experience trying to play with a build posted by fellow veteran players. And then there's a hypothetical question: "What if a dedicated build posted by someone can be done in a different way, and come out much better?"
With complete respec, those experiences unique to individual average joe and fellow veteran players will be non-existent.
With complete respec, the question above will never be answered.
And until this point, none of you fuckers answered my challenge:
Alright, folks, I think it's time for someone to bring this up. Can anybody here mention, by name and how, any RPG worth their salt that gives their players an option to respec, at all? Or at least, a method of respec in other games that will probably fit like a glove for an RPG like Underrail.
Tales of Maj'Eyal has a respec mechanic of some sort. Basically, the game allows you to revert (iirc) 2 or 3 levels worth of character progression, but ONLY in towns. The thing is, Tales of Maj'Eyal is a completely different game than Underrail, and it's a roguelike too. Each leveling up in ToME give 3 attribute points, 1 class talent point, and 1 generic talent point. It's why the respeccing method for ToME works since there's not much numerical points involved, and I can slightly see this method work for Underrail. You can ONLY revert 1 leveling up, and you gotta go to towns to do that, or to thematically fit the whole game, just one town at that. Thing is, would you people gonna be able to handle all the backtracking should you do mistakes time and time again?
Why do people keep saying this? Underrail is definitely mostly about combat, but it does have C&C. It's not fucking hack&slash, it has tons of C&C, no less than Fallout 1&2. You choices heavily affect pretty much every place you visit, be it in ending slides or in-game.
SGS? You can leave and let Vera integrate it into United Stations. You can stay and let it become a part of the United Stations yourself. You can do the same thing but from a position of power on your own terms if you helped Black Eels take over Junkyard and become the Grand Ambassador of the South if you also crushed the Free Drones. Or you can ally with the Free Drones and form an alliance with Gorsky's Silver Hand if you helped him make it powerful. Or just continue on Tanner's path of neutrality.
Junkyard? You can keep the status quo, you can help Eels take over by forming an alliance with either SGS or Protectorate.
Camp Hathor? You can let the place get abandoned by not solving their problems, you can return things to their normal state, you can forge an alliance between them and the Rathound King, the alliance won't last long if both of Hathor's leaders are dead, you can turn the community into expert burrower hunters and tamers.
Rail Crossing? Either let the place be destroyed by Ironheads or integrate it into the United Stations.
Foundry? Return things to normal, let it be destroyed by the Beast, let it survive but fail to resolve other problems that will leave it weak, possibly so weak that it will be forcibly integrated into the United Stations.
Core City? Keep the status quo or cause an open war between the oligarchs, where the Silver Hand you helped create can take control over a part of the city.
Protectorate? Let them stay in the South, strengthen their presence by helping them take over various stations/communities and getting rid of Free Drones, or help Free Drones get rid of them instead.
Free Drones? Leave them be, help them take rid of the Protectorate or sentence them to a really cruel life as mutants wandering the underapassages.
Institute? It will always be destroyed, but you can save the rejects and let the Harmost Stavros's group start a new life, or end their lives.
Other than ending slides? Your relations with the Faceless can be anything from hostility to cooperation and they have visible effects in DC, in the form of either having to fight them of receiving supplies and information, it also affects Lora's fate, which was a pretty long running subplot. Getting their trust to begin with affects the game as well, like letting Buzzer (a good electronics trader) die or avoiding any fights with them. Each of the 3 oligarchs you can join offer a different story, you meet different characters, you learn different things, you use different skills, you get access to different traders, you can use some of them to make other quests easier like accessing documents about the Spectres from Praetorian Security instead of buying them from Oskar. The same goes for joining either Protectorate of Free Drones, with the train heist quest determining which one you can join (if at all) depending on how you handle it. If you convince Dan to join Gorsky in Core City, he will help in the Black Crawlers fight but won't help you fight the Beast and vice versa. Skills like persuasion can affect a number of situations, be it as an alternative way to complete quests with better results, by making them easier or by changing the ending slides, like saving the rejects. I could go on, this is off the top of my head.
I finally got this game and it's pretty damn promising so far. Although I keep hearing there's going to be an expansion soon? So would you folks recommend me waiting for that or just stick to my current playthrough right now?
I finally got this game and it's pretty damn promising so far. Although I keep hearing there's going to be an expansion soon? So would you folks recommend me waiting for that or just stick to my current playthrough right now?
You agree that there shouldn't be respeccing, but if there isn't respeccing it's like eating shit.
No, actually, it's more like "play the fucking games that you like and don't play those that you don't". And don't fucking call it "respecting muh time". Yeah, somehow all games that didn't have respeccing didn't respect your time, thank fuck for this amazing innovation.
Why do people keep saying this? Underrail is definitely mostly about combat, but it does have C&C. It's not fucking hack&slash, it has tons of C&C, no less than Fallout 1&2. You choices heavily affect pretty much every place you visit, be it in ending slides or in-game.
SGS? You can leave and let Vera integrate it into United Stations. You can stay and let it become a part of the United Stations yourself. You can do the same thing but from a position of power on your own terms if you helped Black Eels take over Junkyard and become the Grand Ambassador of the South if you also crushed the Free Drones. Or you can ally with the Free Drones and form an alliance with Gorsky's Silver Hand if you helped him make it powerful. Or just continue on Tanner's path of neutrality.
Junkyard? You can keep the status quo, you can help Eels take over by forming an alliance with either SGS or Protectorate.
Camp Hathor? You can let the place get abandoned by not solving their problems, you can return things to their normal state, you can forge an alliance between them and the Rathound King, the alliance won't last long if both of Hathor's leaders are dead, you can turn the community into expert burrower hunters and tamers.
Rail Crossing? Either let the place be destroyed by Ironheads or integrate it into the United Stations.
Foundry? Return things to normal, let it be destroyed by the Beast, let it survive but fail to resolve other problems that will leave it weak, possibly so weak that it will be forcibly integrated into the United Stations.
Core City? Keep the status quo or cause an open war between the oligarchs, where the Silver Hand you helped create can take control over a part of the city.
Protectorate? Let them stay in the South, strengthen their presence by helping them take over various stations/communities and getting rid of Free Drones, or help Free Drones get rid of them instead.
Free Drones? Leave them be, help them take rid of the Protectorate or sentence them to a really cruel life as mutants wandering the underapassages.
Institute? It will always be destroyed, but you can save the rejects and let the Harmost Stavros's group start a new life, or end their lives.
Other than ending slides? Your relations with the Faceless can be anything from hostility to cooperation and they have visible effects in DC, in the form of either having to fight them of receiving supplies and information, it also affects Lora's fate, which was a pretty long running subplot. Getting their trust to begin with affects the game as well, like letting Buzzer (a good electronics trader) die or avoiding any fights with them. Each of the 3 oligarchs you can join offer a different story, you meet different characters, you learn different things, you use different skills, you get access to different traders, you can use some of them to make other quests easier like accessing documents about the Spectres from Praetorian Security instead of buying them from Oskar. The same goes for joining either Protectorate of Free Drones, with the train heist quest determining which one you can join (if at all) depending on how you handle it. If you convince Dan to join Gorsky in Core City, he will help in the Black Crawlers fight but won't help you fight the Beast and vice versa. Skills like persuasion can affect a number of situations, be it as an alternative way to complete quests with better results, by making them easier or by changing the ending slides, like saving the rejects. I could go on, this is off the top of my head.
Fallout and Arcanum are nothing like Underrail. They are storyfag RPGs where the combat is garbage and a secondary consideration, Underrail has almost no C&C and is all about combat.
"Storyfag RPG where the combat is garbage and a secondary consideration" sounds more like PS:T, to be honest. I disagree that Fallout and Arcanum are "nothing" like Underrail. While I also don't agree with the notion that Underrail *tries* to be Fallout/Arcanum, A LOT of features presents in Underrail are certainly inspired by those two games by Tim Cain, only that Underrail does those features a lot better.
Also, saying Underrail has *almost* no C&C is pretty dishonest, but I guess before we discuss whether or not there's C&C in Underrail, we should discuss what C&C really means to either of us.
I asked why you want to police how others play the game, not your justification against respecs (the "eat shit and better enjoy it" stuff). You play on normal, so it can't be elitist gatekeeping.
I'm not policing anybody here. ortucis were whining about some minor mistakes, I'm telling him the best way to deal with that situation. You were giving me some perspective that, IMO, nothing alike of ortucis's situation, while toro were trying to present arguments in favor of respeccing in Underrail, I was merely giving counter-arguments to those, does that sounds like policing how other people playing to you? Especially since I'm trying to convince you guys that the reality of situation is that it's actually Styg himself who's doing anything remotely close to "policing how others playing *his* game".
Also, where the fuck did I tell anybody to eat shit and better enjoy it? Again, it's dishonest to summarize my posts that way. Is mere 15 wasted skill points, when the guy barely get past Junkyard, that much of a shitty situation?
Fallout and Arcanum combat are just as brainless as PS:T. PS:T is better because it's faster, though arcanum also has RT.
Respec isn't coming to Underrail.
You're just evading questions - do you rest spam in the IE games because it isn't policed there? No you don't, because you aren't a degenerate.
There's plenty of stuff to abuse in UR already.
You agree that there shouldn't be respeccing, but if there isn't respeccing it's like eating shit.
No, actually, it's more like "play the fucking games that you like and don't play those that you don't". And don't fucking call it "respecting muh time". Yeah, somehow all games that didn't have respeccing didn't respect your time, thank fuck for this amazing innovation.
Respecing should be only in game where you get levelled companions. The best option should be to get any companion at level one. There is no need for it in a game like Underrail. The levelling is pretty generic as skills and attributes,anyone with a RPG or two experience will have no problem building a character that he intends to play. You don't have to be a genius to make a decent character in your first playtrough. Choose a favourite weapon,chose a few side skills and pump that shit up.
Some do. I think that consequences for skipping quests and consequences of mutually-exclusive quests are both important, it's not like doing all the sidequests in one playthrough is mandatory. It's still a choice with consequences. Also, you could say the same thing about a lot of ending slides in Fallout 1&2.
If you are talking about mutually-exclusive questlines, yeah. But there are other quests that give different outcomes based on your choices. Like meeting the Rathound King in DC for example.
I only said C&C is mostly on par with Fallout 1&2. Well, maybe a bit worse if we include low intelligence runs, but you also skip a lot of content during those. Arcanum is better in that regard and AoD is on an entirely different level.
Nothing to do with epenis. I consider rerolling or restarting a char a normal way in a true RPG, especially if you totally fuck your character. Its also a common sense, given how RPGs play, to expect that you go all in in one of the attributes, like in standard RPGs going for warrior you dump your points in strength/hp/melee etc. not adding some points in intelligence/mana/intellect etc. Its a common fucking sense if you played RPGs for 20 years.
Anyway. On the respec subject to all involved. There's a youtube playlist for typical build archetypes. This should get the pro-respec parties started. There's also bunch of info like this for light weapon builds, etc. Finally, comparing Normal/Hard to DOMINATING is like as if the former had infinite free respec or something.
I BEAT THE GAME WITH SUBOPTIMAL BUILD AND NO CRAFTING ON NORMAL. NO STEALTH.
I also don't understand why the pro-respec parties get called fucking retards all the time. We're discussing a prestigious game here, not "Fallout 3 is GOTY what's Fallout 1 and 2" level. Having a difference of opinion like that doesn't warrant being a retard in my book.
Just please put the matter to rest, all parties involved.
I forgot till now. Playing in native 1080p is just pain in the ass on some random 27"-ish screen. I could never play in native res. I can imagine the icons being too small and not intelligible. But they actually look good and properly stylized when scaled. Even using builtin display scaling that sucks in general. With native, the isometric gameplay area is also too small, making everything look nondescript.
- In 4K, play in 1440p
- In 1080p, play in 720p-ish or slightly above
Maybe that's the cause for these issues to begin with. I think the game should have scaling for both the game tiles and the interface, but it never had any and it doesn't seem to be any priority. Go figure. Might be because many people sit 50 cm from their displays. I sat some 80-100 cm from my 27".
does that sounds like policing how other people playing to you? Especially since I'm trying to convince you guys that the reality of situation is that it's actually Styg himself who's doing anything remotely close to "policing how others playing *his* game".
I'd say he's a "Benevolent Dictator for Life". If it was more consensus-driven we'd get XAL-001 with no negative effects when using right boots. Some pushover Carnifex. The list can go on.
If you are talking about mutually-exclusive questlines, yeah. But there are other quests that give different outcomes based on your choices. Like meeting the Rathound King in DC for example.
I only said C&C is mostly on par with Fallout 1&2. Well, maybe a bit worse if we include low intelligence runs, but you also skip a lot of content during those. Arcanum is better in that regard and AoD is on an entirely different level.
I got pissed when slides said the Protectorate controlled Junkyard and Rail Crossing. At least I got the better part of the bargain.
It's not comparable to Fallout. The game's mostly centered on combat and empowering your character. The biggest part of C&C are the ending slides. So you can choose a faction but the gameworld isn't flexible enough.
Fallout made me somewhat attached to the characters and factions. The writing isn't up to par with Fallout or Arcanum. It's not bad either but not on that level. I've had some feelings one way or the another about the Mordinos, Myron, Lynette, Harold, and the Bishop couple. In Underrail I only remember the names of few most important/iconic characters. For others it's "the guy who X". Despite the guy being more than a quest dispenser, he's more of "X that's in Y questline for Z". The game also has no zeppelins unlike AoD or Arcanum.
You can,
- do a quest
- not start it
- fuck the quest up
or,
- antagonize Faceless
- not fuck it up
or,
- be friends with Eidein till the very end
- shoot through to Eidein when discovered poking around
The descriptions there are useless - look at Mental Subversion and Neural Overload and try to decide whether the former is a worthwhile pickup. None of the underlying mechanics are exposed to the player.
I'm not an expert on Psi builds but it seems evident from the page on Resolve. Noting that only TC skills cause the debuff, I'd skip it completely.
I agree that Resolve stuff has no resist formulae on either page, and how pure-damage skills are affected by it. I'd pick Mental Breakdown instead though. Enemies barely last long enough for Mental Subversion to matter. It's also self-evident to max Will, rest in INT and dump all the rest. Maybe SOMETIMES use a grenade or two. Then they don't last long too much.
It makes those choices made at earlier levels inconsequential, the overall value of talents/abilites through the entire game becomes irrelevant since you can just replace them in those parts of the game where they are least useful, etc.
That's because respeccing used today as poor man's balance tool - you have holes in your system? Don't you worry - respec will patch them out!
No, they won't.
I finally got this game and it's pretty damn promising so far. Although I keep hearing there's going to be an expansion soon? So would you folks recommend me waiting for that or just stick to my current playthrough right now?
There are so many juicy builds in Underrail, so you most likely want to restart a game in the middle, or some small time after finishing the game.
So you have time to expariment now, no sense to postpone your life! Live today! Play now!
Yes I am, because it's the simpliest method allowed by the game. And when I don't - I fighting against my laziness, which is evolutionary mechanics intended for calories saving, which not fun at all.
I prefer to have strict frame of rules then to invent them.
Honestly if it were up to me (and this is probably pretty decline tbh) I'd take the damn Death Stalkers and Crawler type enemies out of the game. They're built solely to frustrate. No matter what quest I do right now, I run into either them or faceless with the plasma drones.
Styg hates useless skills/feats/things as much as any of us. Things'll keep improving, unless they're forgotten and buried somewhere in megathreads... Were there other particularly low value or downright useless feats than Mental Subversion?
But "obfuscated" game mechanics? I think I get what you mean, but, well, that's just Styg's style. He doesn't want all the underlying mechanics to be explained in numerical detail, only in basic functionality. Not even on the wiki, but that never stopped anybody. Methinks the intention is for game mechanics to be something players discover and experiment with as they play - as opposed to the game shoving unnecessary level of minutiae in your face or being so obscure you absolutely need guides/wikis. Underrail generally expects players to figure things out themselves, be it mechanics or story.
Define "brainless". I admit I don't have enough experience regarding combat in IE games because I haven't really gotten around continuing my virgin run of Baldur's Gate 1, and my (unfinished) PS:T playthrough only got as far as the underground section past Curst. If what you meant by "brainless" is just clicking your way until the combat is over, then I think I can agree it's pretty "brainless" in PS:T because I can't remember the game offered any form of tactical options when it come to combat. However, while Arcanum doesn't offer more than PS:T (because that game is stupidly designed around the possibility of players switching between turn-based and real-time mode on the fly), Fallout actually DOES have tactical options, even if they're only as simple as choosing between regular attacks or special attacks (like aimed shots/attacks at specific limbs on the target), so I wouldn't go as far as calling Fallout's combat "brainless" compared to PS:T and Arcanum, more like lacking in tactical options compared to Underrail.
As for the matter of speed, I don't know how does being 'faster' has anything to do with the three games's comparison to Underrail, considering in case of Fallout & Arcanum both of those are turn-based so it's actually alright to compare them to Underrail, but fine. I admit I don't have any parameter to compare the Fallout, Arcanum and PS:T's combat speed based on release version; I can imagine Fallout being far slower because it's an entirely new engine compared to IE, not to mention non-combatants turns being accounted for in combat, but even Fallout has innate combat speed slider. And if we compare their speed nowadays, with mods, sfall allows you to increase in-game speed (like you can with cheat engine for other games), though I guess combat can still drag on. To be honest, I think it's not a question of which RPG has faster combat that makes them better than the others; it's the question of *fun*.
PS:T's combat by itself is so bad, it being real-time is actually a boon because it means it will be over much faster before it starts to feel like a burden. But Fallout, with the tactical options it offers, however limited they may be, resulted in quite fun experience; at least for me, it does. Many people might remember more about spamming eye-shots, but I had quite a lot of memories targeting an enemy's limbs in hope of crippling them or knocking them down. You can target an enemy's legs to prevent them from closing in on you or running away; you can target arms to reduce their THC against you; you can target heads and groins (against male human enemies) to knock them down and give you full THC against them. Hell, in regards to using aimed attacks, unarmed build has more going for it and much more fun because there are multiple versions of special attacks you can perform with your fist and leg with higher STR and Unarmed skill, and each of them can also be aimed at specific limbs. Not to mention the game gives you clear feedback with its critical failure mechanics, so it's pretty fun to see characters (including mine) experiencing some critical failure like losing a turn/a whole magazine of ammo/accidentally knocking themselves down/accidentally attacking anyone other than the target, especially so with Jinxed playthrough. It's pretty sad for me to see no critical failure mechanics exist in Underrail (and AoD), though.
As for Arcanum's comparison to Underrail, I don't consider Underrail taking any inspiration from Arcanum's combat at all. However, some Arcanum-inspired features does exists in Underrail, mainly crafting system and merchants not accepting just about any kind of junks that player characters tried to sell to them.
Why did you keep on insisting that I'm for some reason wanted to police how others play the game? Is my explanations of what I'm merely trying to do isn't enough for you? Should I repeat it over and over again until you finally understand or just agree to disagree with my explanations?
You say that, but I remember people saying how rest mechanic in IE is bad because they're spammable, and anybody who does spam it are degenerates; doesn't that sounds more like policing to you? Compared to what I'm trying to say to y'all regarding respec in RPGs? Not to mention there are people who openly admitted that, "If I can spam rest in IE games, then I will/I don't see why I won't" or something along those lines. Same with harm-spam in real-time mode in Arcanum.
Except Underrail, and any other RPGs worth their salt tbh, have different kind of C&C: that of purely on gameplay terms. Any RPGs worth their salt will drive their players to start making choices from all the way since character creation screen. What kind of character build archetype I want to play this time? How do I want to develop this character build? Do I allocate all the points into stat X or Y? The choices keeps on going with every level-ups: Do I want to invest in skill A or B this time? Do I want to take this feat now, later, or even at all? Even moment-to-moment gameplay has you making choices, however trivial they might seems to us. Do I want to risk using aimed shot in this turn, or do I save it until I can get pretty reasonable THC to perform it? Do I throw that grenade now? Do I move into this corner or that one instead?
And then, with all the choices you make, comes the consequences. And like Tygrende said, it doesn't have to be positive. Oh, you're making a light build with low HP that relies on dodging attacks left and right? Then you better develop your dodging skill, or your character will die in 3-4 hits. Oh, you think it's cool to try investing on a skill not as important or even outright irrelevant to your chosen build archetype? Then you're not going to perform as good as you should've been if only you invested on skills that matters to the archetype. Oh, you decided to throw the grenade at risky range? Then embrace the possibility of the grenade landing somewhere else and wasting that grenade. Oh, look, the grenade DOES lands somewhere else other than your intended target, and now it's wasted, and now you're surrounded. Choices & Consequences™
That's why saying Underrail has *almost* no C&C is quite dishonest. Even if you specified that the C&C you meant is purely on story terms, it's still pretty ignorant, because as Tygrende pointed out, there ARE quite some story C&C in Underrail. They might not be as nuanced and sophisticated as Fallout's and Arcanum's, but they're still there, far more than 'almost none' statement could describe.
Hey. I hacked 2160p into the game executable. It's actually easy as hell. Shit's so small but it actually works. I'm surprised scrolling or the hotbar doesn't break.
Honestly if it were up to me (and this is probably pretty decline tbh) I'd take the damn Death Stalkers and Crawler type enemies out of the game. They're built solely to frustrate.
The Death Stalkers, yes. On DOMINATING they have insane detection/stealth score the player can't counter even with a specialized build at level 25. Not to say the encounters aren't amusing (throwing flares/napalm varieties blindly), but still they're cheating sons of bitches.
Regarding normal areas, Crawlers are pretty common in one quest of Gorsky's questline. Are there any other occurences of these fuckwads in major quests? Yes, I hate them. There are some when roaming Lower Underrail but they're optional areas meant to be a challenge. Like the multi-cat encounter.
I so fully agree here. See the amount of useless perks Fallout 2 has, like "add 20% to XYZ skills". Underrail despite all the complexity barely has any.
while Arcanum doesn't offer more than PS:T (because that game is stupidly designed around the possibility of players switching between turn-based and real-time mode on the fly)
Just note that the RT option in Arcanum isn't something that actually works. It's shitty and half-broken because publisher insisted. The player can't really react that fast. The only good use of the RT option is that NPCs can fight between themselves without turn-based combat engaging. You can leave them fighting and do your thing.
It's possible to exploit turn order by switching to RT and back but it's not something a monocled gentleman would stoop to.
You say that, but I remember people saying how rest mechanic in IE is bad because they're spammable, and anybody who does spam it are degenerates; doesn't that sounds more like policing to you? Compared to what I'm trying to say to y'all regarding respec in RPGs?
BG2 or a mod could restrict rest in outdoor areas. The mechanic has been in place and so easy to "abuse" for so long it's not justifiable not to patch it up, if it's indeed community consensus.
By the same logic I'm savescumming Underrail. I have to "open" combat right, for example GMS 3rd level or Vince. Snipe then flashbang, or frag then flashbang. There's some 60% or so chance this succeeds with both hits. So having missed either by a long shot (e.g. grenade landing totally elsewhere), I reload. "I should pay Vince", my ass. It's a longtime tradition that my builds kill Vince each time it's first necessary to go through the slums. But then again it's nearly unfeasible to play on DOMINATING without micromanaging encounters like this. Enemies have a caster? It's gonna go sideways the first few times. YMMV.
I'm also discovering how hard it is to play an AR build compared to SMG on earlier levels. Or maybe I just suck. AR sure was fine on Normal.
I was on my way to do Rathound King to level up so I could do the persuasion option to get in in the aforementioned quest. In the middle of an encounter with a pack of Alpha Rathounds, a fucking death stalker comes out and rapes me to death.
Seriously, they were such a jump down in encounter design in this game. All other difficult encounters, there was something you could use to nullify their advantage or otherwise weaken them a bit. I think I can see what styg was going for. IMO he was going for some sort of horror-esque feel. But he could have accomplished it much easier if he had them sill stealth the fuck out of you, but reduced their initial damage (seriously, he thought being able to deal my entire health bar for the stage of the game where I started to encounter them was a good enemy? That's just frustrating.), gave them a weaker poison that had a longer duration and no stun. He could have even still included hyperallergenic (although it should be weaker imo, 78 unavoidable damage if you try to heal with something that only heals 80 is ridiculous) to drive the fear home. But as they are, they're just a roadblock that either is ridiculous to surmount or you have to find another way to get where you're going.
In conclusion, fuck death stalkers and crawlers, they're the rare exception to the rule that is the excellent encounter design of Underrail, which makes them even more egregious.
That's overstating things a bit. Death stalkers are horrible monsters, but if you have a high stealth skill+stealth chest/tabis and use motion tracking NVGs and a cloaking device you should be able to spot them before they spot you by the high teens. At level 25 with paranoia you don't even need the cloaking device. I won't argue that it isn't kinda ridiculous that you need a full set of gear and a high level character that's built exactly the right way to beat them at their own game, but you can do it.
I actually really like crawlers/stalkers now that I know all their spawn locations. When you don't know they're there they're just annoying since there's no way to avoid them fucking you other than stealthing through every dark area with motion tracking NVGs on just in case, but when you do know they're in the area they're great. I love hunting them, it's super high tension.
Major crawler areas are
the Abandoned Warehouse, the Protectorate Warehouse basement, the Coretech Facility, Hecate Research Outpost, Bunker, the West Wing of the Institute, and the basement of Arke.
And the Black Crawler's cave, but you probably guessed that.
Read what you write first, retard.
Also, obfuscated game mechanics can be a good thing. Don't like it? You can fuck off and stop policing the way people play their games.
You say that, but I remember people saying how rest mechanic in IE is bad because they're spammable, and anybody who does spam it are degenerates; doesn't that sounds more like policing to you?
He sucks Sawyer's cock, the literal anti-fun police, who removed and implemented safe-guards against playing how you want, but then asks why you want to police people if you're against respeccing, which is one of the most degenerate mechanics ever.
