Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Cael]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Flurry is arguably better, as it provides extra attacks at max Attack Bonus (rather then at -5/-10).

It works as long as all of the weapons used are Monk weapons. The penalties stack, though, and with a 3/4 BAB, doing that is basically asking for trouble. Flurry only gets the penalties removed at level 11 or so. On top of that, you need a very high Dex to get TWF in the first place, which is bad because a Dex-based Monk is a trap for young players. Generally, you want Wis for the Stunning Fist or Str for general mayhem. Monks are best used as living sniper bullets, tumbling past the frontline to whack the mage in the rear. They are geared that way: extra speed, tumble as a class skill, Stunning Fist that mages are vulnerable to, and later on, SR in case the mage survived the fist. Very rarely would a Monk stand and deliver, and if they do that AND try all those attacks, well, we call it Flurry of Misses.

 

[Maculo]

Am I missing something or does the level 1 spell Grease seem to outperform many disable/crowd-control spells by a large margin? I have a low level Enchanter Wizard (level 6), and Grease seems to consistently knock over enemies and lasts for a considerable duration. In contrast, Hypnotism seems hit-or-miss and short-lived in duration, even with several enchantment+ feats. Hideous Laughter seems decent, but it is single target.

 

[Cael]

Am I missing something or does the level 1 spell Grease seem to outperform many disable/crowd-control spells by a large margin? I have a low level Enchanter Wizard (level 6), and Grease seems to consistently knock over enemies and lasts for a considerable duration. In contrast, Hypnotism seems hit-or-miss and short-lived in duration, even with several enchantment+ feats. Hideous Laughter seems decent, but it is single target.

You are not. Grease is a horribly broken 1st level spell and has been since the 3.0 days. Let me put it this way:

1. It ignores SR. You cast it on the surface under the guy, not on him.
2. Everyone has to make a Reflex save or fall down.
3. If they made the save, if they want to move or do anything at all, they have to make a Balance check DC10. Fail, and you not only not get to move, you must make another Reflex save or fall over. Fail by more than 5, you just fall over, no save.
4. If you made the check, you move at half speed, which means no 5ft move for you and every move attracts attacks of opportunity. If you are still in the Grease area after the move, you make a Reflex save or fall over.
5. Want to double move to get out of the area? Make two checks instead of one (basically 2 move actions). Fail any of those and down you go.
6. Even after all that, you remain upright, if you don't have 5 ranks of Balance (ranks, not check), you are considered flatfooted. How many monsters do you think have 5 ranks in Balance?
7. Oh, and if you get hit? Balance check again or down you go.
8. A prone character is at -4 to-hit for melee attacks and downright can't use ranged weapons other than a crossbow. Everyone and their mothers can shoot you at -1 to-hit or beat the shit out of you in melee at a +4 bonus to-hit. Getting up triggers attacks of opportunity. In other words, you're fucked.

If you are a arcane caster and do not have Grease at level 1 or whichever lowest level you can get it, play something else.

 

[Incendax]

You are not. Grease is a horribly broken 1st level spell and has been since the 3.0 days. Let me put it this way:

It gets worse. Grease stacks with itself.
Drop 8+ in one spot, and even the biggest boss gets hard locked.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Really? What makes you say that?

 

[Ent]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Flurry is arguably better, as it provides extra attacks at max Attack Bonus (rather then at -5/-10).

It works as long as all of the weapons used are Monk weapons. The penalties stack, though, and with a 3/4 BAB, doing that is basically asking for trouble. Flurry only gets the penalties removed at level 11 or so. On top of that, you need a very high Dex to get TWF in the first place, which is bad because a Dex-based Monk is a trap for young players. Generally, you want Wis for the Stunning Fist or Str for general mayhem. Monks are best used as living sniper bullets, tumbling past the frontline to whack the mage in the rear. They are geared that way: extra speed, tumble as a class skill, Stunning Fist that mages are vulnerable to, and later on, SR in case the mage survived the fist. Very rarely would a Monk stand and deliver, and if they do that AND try all those attacks, well, we call it Flurry of Misses.

Kingmaker is using the Unchained monk which is the revised Full bab version of monk. Also flurry of blows in this version of monk is not a modified version of Two Weapon fighting but simply an extra a attack made at the highest bab (like having a speed weapon).

 

[Haplo]

Am I missing something or does the level 1 spell Grease seem to outperform many disable/crowd-control spells by a large margin? I have a low level Enchanter Wizard (level 6), and Grease seems to consistently knock over enemies and lasts for a considerable duration. In contrast, Hypnotism seems hit-or-miss and short-lived in duration, even with several enchantment+ feats. Hideous Laughter seems decent, but it is single target.

Seems like every game needs a spell like that ...

Deadfire has the crazy levev 1 Chill Fog, which is an aoe pulsing freeze damage + Blind (Tier 3 affliction, reduced range, -15 Accuracy, 50% recovery penalty) which pulses every 3 (?) seconds and the blindness effect persists for over 20.

Not to mention the Watershaper subclass and Grave Calling Saber party friendly versions. The latter with the right enchantments may also pulsing aoe Paralyze (!) .

 

[Maculo]

Am I missing something or does the level 1 spell Grease seem to outperform many disable/crowd-control spells by a large margin? I have a low level Enchanter Wizard (level 6), and Grease seems to consistently knock over enemies and lasts for a considerable duration. In contrast, Hypnotism seems hit-or-miss and short-lived in duration, even with several enchantment+ feats. Hideous Laughter seems decent, but it is single target.

Seems like every game needs a spell like that ...

Deadfire has the crazy levev 1 Chill Fog, which is an aoe pulsing freeze damage + Blind (Tier 3 affliction, reduced range, -15 Accuracy, 50% recovery penalty) which pulses every 3 (?) seconds and the blindness effect persists for over 20.

Not to mention the Watershaper subclass and Grave Calling Saber party friendly versions. The latter with the right enchantments may also pulsing aoe Paralyze (!) .

Did it get buffed? I played Deadfire on release, and I do not remember Chill Fog being that good. I recall Slicken, which is equivalent to Grease in PoE, but it seems much more self-contained.

I do not want to rely on grease in every encounter, but I know how much more difficult I am making certain encounters without it. Still, I presume that upper level mage spells are bullshit and grease will become a fallback at a certain point.

On a side note, between PFK, Atom, 40K Mechanicus, I still need to replay Deadfire with all the expansions, but I am waiting to see if (or when) Obsidian releases turn-based mode. I am pretty content with all these games at the moment.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, I think at some point the Blind affliction maybe got a buff. I don't remember it affecting recovery on release.

But the custom versions are even crazier. Particularly the Grave Calling one, coupled with the Saber paralysis effect, after 10 hits from the Saber... With a pulsing aoe 10 hits isn't much...
It's powerful enough that I had my herald summon skeletons foy my char to kill to generate those Chillfogs as they spawn when you kill a vessel with the saber.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Inquisitors seem pretty neat. I was thinking of making a heavy armored greatsword inquisitor now that theres a +str +wis racial option to use.

They are neat, good combination of melee and magic. I like the Bane weapon and Judgment abilities which improve many aspects that you choose (I usually buff my attack rolls + Bane Jaethal's weapon) and then you have auxillary magic to play with, too. Jaethal also makes a good Intimidating Prowess/Demoralize character. She's a scary undead.

 

[Haplo]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Really? What makes you say that?

According to the Pathfinder rules for Unchained Monk Flurry:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects)."

However Kingmaker mechanics might be different.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Really? What makes you say that?

According to the Pathfinder rules for Unchained Monk Flurry:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects)."

However Kingmaker mechanics might be different.

Ahh ok. I missed that. Good to know.

 

[Cael]

I don't think flurry of blows is supposed to work with dual-wielding. Therefore a monk probably shouldn't dual wield.

Really? What makes you say that?

According to the Pathfinder rules for Unchained Monk Flurry:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects)."

However Kingmaker mechanics might be different.

This is a follow on from the rule in 3.5 that allowed Monks to use different weapons as part of the Flurry. You can hit with a foot, then one end of a quarterstaff and then the other end and then back to the foot if you so desire. As the rule said, you don't get extra attacks if you use that rule.

However, it was also clarified in 3.5 that if you want to use TWF, then you can but it imposes a stacking penalty to-hit commensurate to both Flurry and TWF. It basically opened up a choice for the player to declare whether he wanted to have the extra attacks or not before he started rolling.

Of course, I would trust pieturd to fuck up the wording of this, because it is very obvious that pieturd's game was done by a bunch of amateurs who never considered the flow on effects of their changes or how the changes interact with other rules.

 

[Haplo]

Most sources seem to agree that you can't combine TWF and FoB for a Pathfinder Monk.
And UMonk has no AB penalty for Flurry and is a full BAB class.

 

[Cael]

Most sources seem to agree that you can't combine TWF and FoB for a Pathfinder Monk.
And UMonk has no AB penalty for Flurry and is a full BAB class.

*shrug* As I said, I trust pieturd to fuck it up.

Personally, my modification to Monk is to make it a full BAB class but leave the reducing penalties in for Flurry. I also added three different schools from which you pick one, but that is another story.

 

[Hermit]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

 

[Yosharian]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

Depends how you want to tank.

 

[Haplo]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

How about a Vivisectionist? Gets huge Strengh bonuses, natural armor, sneak damage and a rich suite of buffs. Also can become mostly immune to crits.

 

[Hermit]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

Depends how you want to tank.

My team will be 1 main tank(valerie), 1 off tank support (harrim), 1 off tank dps (me), 1 full suppot and 2 dps.

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

How about a Vivisectionist? Gets huge Strengh bonuses, natural armor, sneak damage and a rich suite of buffs. Also can become mostly immune to crits.

Interesting, what stats and feats should i invest?

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

DPS that can tank huh? I would go Paladin or Inquisitor. Go for the sacred huntsmaster; it can tank thanks to the Teamwork feats. But to put heavy armour on him, take a level in Fighter.

Thanks!

 

[ArchAngel]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

For that role in my party I made a custom companion that is a Two-handed Fighter/Stalwart Defender. When he needs to tank I just turn on Stalwart Defender ability and he gets a nice dodge bonus (also stalwart gives him passive dodge bonuses). Also as a fighter base class I got enough feats for defense and offense feats. He works nicely. He can dish out nice damage and tank when needed. And of course it is a Dwarf for bonus tankiness :D

But if I had to do it again I would switch Two Handed Fighter for a vanilla fighter that focuses on Two handed weapons. You get same bonuses to attack and damage but you also get bonus to armor and bonus vs fear. Two handed fighter specific abilities are mostly useless anyways, they activate in specific situations only. And I lost at least 2 bonus AC because of that.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

str-based builds are strictly inferior to dex-based ones, especially in the later chapters when everything does touch-based damage

 

[jungl]

Fought the dragon boss and lich few days ago. You can right click both and walk away from your computer and come back to see your party untouched. CRPGS mostly have simple combat. Being turn based or real time makes no difference. Games like age of decadence and civilization have very basic combat system where Nintendo games like paper mario actually require more thought process.

 

[Haplo]

My purpose is to be a 2-handed dps that can tank if necessary, so i must choose paladin, inquisitor, crusader or fighter 1/cleric X? Thanks!

obsfighter and barbarians are out of question)

How about a Vivisectionist? Gets huge Strengh bonuses, natural armor, sneak damage and a rich suite of buffs. Also can become mostly immune to crits.

Interesting, what stats and feats should i invest?

Well, depends if you want heavy armor or unarmored. For my Mk2 I went unarmored with a dip in monk. There are enough stat and AC boosting items (plus higher level Str mutagens boost Dex as well) to make it a worthwile option and actually exceed heavy armor bonuses (note +8 AC bracers, just 1 shy of full plate but with no Dex limit!), particularly with a lawfull good monk for the +5 dodge robes.

In general I like 18 Str, 14-16 Dex (to help with armor and for Combat Reflexes, as I get lots of Attacks of Opportunity), 14-16 Wis (for monk AC and Will saves; I went with Hungerspawn Tiefling, which gets bonuses to Str and Wis, as well as CMB/CMD boosts), a little Int (I went 13 to pick Combat Expertise as my first feat).

I'm a big fan of Greater Trip and with up to 42 Strenght and 28 Dex you can get a very respectable CMB. Plus with Feral Mutagen you get additional Bite attacks, which can trip enemies with the Cloak of Winter Wolf without sacrificing regular attacks (and Feral mutagen 3 max BAB natural attacks absolutely dominate from level 2 till at least till mid-levels, probably even longer). Note you can get "Combat Trick"-s on Discovery levels, possibly providing as many feats, as a pure fighter would have. You absolutely should pick mutagen upgrades though. Feral at level 2. I also recommend Crippling Strike after Vivi level 10, perhaps some Preserve Organs, if you can fit them (I plan for 2x - and no Mummification, as my end-game weapon will provide permanent Freedom of Movement).

So for me CE, Trip, Greater Trip, Fury's Fall, Tandem Trip. Also Combat Reflexes and Outflank ASAP. I like to hit stuff, so I have one other character - Val or Jaethal specialize in Persuasion feats and Dazzling Display and get Weapon Focus - Dazzling Display - Shatter Defenses on all my strikers (except Freebooter Ranger, who skips WF and DD and goes straight for Shatter at Style feat at level 6). Having all enemies flat footed makes hitting them pretty easy. I also like big crits, so Improved Critical (neat with Serpent Prince 15-20/x3!). Later on also Seize the Moment.

One issue is that the for me the best 2-handed weapons are Fauchards (also the Mastery is the best combat manouver weapon, by far) and they require exotic proficiency. Also I need W Focus for Dazzling Display. With Martial Proficiency that's 3 feats - a bit much. I solve this by dipping 1 level in Sword Saint and picking Fauchard, which gets me both the proficiency and Focus for free. Also +1 Int AC and the BAB loss is mitigated by possible Arcane Pool enchantment.

 

[ArchAngel]

Because of shit above 3e D&D had exp penalty if you overdid it with munchkin multiclassing. Unless you were human and picked Vivi as your fav class (if vivi existed in D&D). In Pathfinder this multiclass would cost you bonus to life or skills for levels in monk and sword saint. But lucky for you as I don't think devs implemented that into P:KM.

Also you get a full plate within first 5h of the game, you get that +8 bracers of armor and +5 monk robe after 100h of playing it.

 

[Yosharian]

Because of shit above 3e D&D had exp penalty if you overdid it with munchkin multiclassing. Unless you were human and picked Vivi as your fav class (if vivi existed in D&D). In Pathfinder this multiclass would cost you bonus to life or skills for levels in monk and sword saint. But lucky for you as I don't think devs implemented that into P:KM.

Also you get a full plate within first 5h of the game, you get that +8 bracers of armor and +5 monk robe after 100h of playing it.

That's true but you only need the Mage Armor spell and a +6 Dex mod to equal non-magical Full Plate.

And there's Magical Vestment for enhancement.