The Indiepocalypse happened - we are now in the Indie Post-Apocalypse

[HentaiWriter]

If you're in it to make a living out of it (which isn't contradictory to doing it because you're passionate about making games, you can be both), just make adult games.
You get to release your game on countless other sites that specifically cater to your game in a market where few games are actually being finished and released, and you have a gigantic audience that wants those games.

SFW game storefronts to release on:

• Steam
• Epic
• Itch.io
• Gamejolt
• GoG

(there's probably places I'm forgetting but it's not much unless you get it in stores.)
---------------------------------------------------------------
NSFW game storefronts to release on:

• Steam
• Itch.io
• Gamejolt
• GoG
• Nutaku
• Mikandi
• FAKKU
• Patreon (not really a sufficient market for SFW games on Patreon)
• Denpasoft
• MangaGamer
• JAST
• DLSite ENG and JPN
• Melonbooks
• DMM
• J-List

and probably others I've forgotten.

Your stuff won't be nearly as diluted on the adult sites, most of them will probably put your stuff front and center if it's high quality, and the collective sales from all of those places combined will be a much safer bet than trying to hit it out of the park with a top-200 game on Steam alone.

 

[lightbane]

NSFW game storefronts to release on:

• Steam

Probably not anymore, considering there seems to be an increasing series of attacks against VNs, especially those aimed at straight males even if the content is 100% consensual and done by adult characters. Probably SJWs are involved, seeing that a blatant yaoi/gay VN with edgy themes like death and such was given a pass.

What's your take on this, Writer? What would you do if your game was censored in Steam or indefinitely postponed for no obvious reason?

 

[Bester]

just make adult games.

I often consider it.

My main fear is that I'll either start fapping 10 times a day, or I'll become desensitized to sex, becoming a mentally damaged/handicapped person either way.

 

[Anthedon]

just make adult games.

I often consider it.

My main fear is that I'll either start fapping 10 times a day, or I'll become desensitized to sex, becoming a mentally damaged/handicapped person either way.

Don't be afraid of a mental handicap, you are already posting on the Codex.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Probably not anymore, considering there seems to be an increasing series of attacks against VNs, especially those aimed at straight males even if the content is 100% consensual and done by adult characters. Probably SJWs are involved, seeing that a blatant yaoi/gay VN with edgy themes like death and such was given a pass.

Steam is perfectly viable, and the whole issue has been massively, massively overexaggerated.

There were only 3-4 games taken down from Steam since they allowed the adult content stuff, and every one of them had something with them that makes sense why it was taken down. They were either games with high school settings/characters in high school, which in the USA, at the oldest means characters at 18, and when you have a character that is 18 as your main character and their little sister is in the game, logically most people would instantly assume that the little sister is underage given that there is a 9 month minimum wait between having babies, so...

Steam's also indirectly confirmed through external sources that the only thing they axe games for is if the characters are in a high school (or earlier) setting, or look drastically young enough to be in one. This is of course subjective on the last one, but it's again only happened in a very few scenarios.
Another way to put it is if you have to put up that "all characters are depicted as 18+" in your game, then you're going to get axed.

So the consensual stuff isn't the issue, it's the setting, because again 75% minimum students in high school are 17 or younger, and when your game is set in a high school, the risk factor (as well as the looks of characters often portrayed in that setting) is not something Steam wants to mess with. Outside of that, you pretty much have free reign to do rape, bestiality, tentacles, yaoi, yuri, gangbangs, you name it.

What's your take on this, Writer? What would you do if your game was censored in Steam or indefinitely postponed for no obvious reason?

We already have plans to release it on the many other platforms above; additionally, you should ideally be "selling" your game on Patreon too (for example, if people pledge $10 or more during our Patreon campaign, you get the game at launch, which is 50% off the expected sale price of $20 on most other sites we'll be selling it on), so then even if something like that happens, you've still got a sizable amount of profits from your game as a result.

We also plan to do a SFW version of most of our games, or at least a "toggle" to remove specifically sex scenes, so that people can play them on youtube, twitch, and so on.

just make adult games.

I often consider it.

My main fear is that I'll either start fapping 10 times a day, or I'll become desensitized to sex, becoming a mentally damaged/handicapped person either way.

I know a lot of porn devs and I can say I know of maybe less than 3 out of 100 that actually fap to their own work. It's not something I'd consider a huge risk, to be honest, and as far as becoming desensitized, it's illustrations, so I don't think it would desensitize you. A lot of adult game devs still have totally normal sex lives, have wives/husbands, children, report no issues with their sex lives, just like any other job. It'd be like animating for a violent TV show and then suddenly becoming desensitized to death and murder; it doesn't really happen

 

[Bester]

HentaiWriter I'd like to pick your brain on this stuff.

Let's say I work on a game like insexcity (https://graphtreon.com/creator/insexsity) for a couple of months and it already has a decent amount of content, like a couple of hours of gameplay, so I start a patreon and release some kind of free demo on all stores you listed. (by the way, is this the recommended route? releasing a demo on patreon when you've got 2 hours of gameplay?)

Is the chart that I linked a correct representation of the dynamics that this theoretical patreon account would have? Nothing for the first 3 months, then 1k bucks, 2k bucks, 4k bucks, each new month? Or do you think the first 3 months of no money was likely due to zero marketing from them?

Also, is there some kind of porn-dev community that has info about all this stuff?

How much do you think it's possible to earn on all other stores combined, when you earn 10k per month on Patreon alone?

What would be the general advice on how to get into the whole thing? I'm assuming playing top 50 games on patreon should do the trick as far as research on popular game mechanics, fetishes, visual styles, etc goes -- am I correct?

 

[Viata]

Heh. Little by little RPGCodex is going to become PorngameCodex.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Stuff

Give me about 24 hours, I'm crunching for two demo releases at once and then I can respond to all this with a big huge wall of text

 

[Dayyālu]

Heh. Little by little RPGCodex is going to become PorngameCodex.

I only ask for a TB mecha game with 2d graphics and proper gameplay (so nor BTech nor that thing for the FTL devs counts).

Porn games are my only hope now.

 

[lightbane]

Steam is perfectly viable, and the whole issue has been massively, massively overexaggerated.

There were only 3-4 games taken down from Steam since they allowed the adult content stuff, and every one of them had something with them that makes sense why it was taken down. They were either games with high school settings/characters in high school, which in the USA, at the oldest means characters at 18, and when you have a character that is 18 as your main character and their little sister is in the game, logically most people would instantly assume that the little sister is underage given that there is a 9 month minimum wait between having babies, so...

There are a few games in Japanese style with no porn content that were still censored, so watch out. Also, Paypal is also blocking stuff lately, be careful. Nevertheless, you seem to be prepared at least.

 

[HentaiWriter]

There are a few games in Japanese style with no porn content that were still censored, so watch out. Also, Paypal is also blocking stuff lately, be careful. Nevertheless, you seem to be prepared at least.

As far as I know, the only game with no porn content that was censored was one that had elementary school children in it (was called The Key to Home), and while there is no directly sexual images in it, there's stuff like this;

Which, to anyone casually looking at the game, is highly, highly suggestive, whether people want to argue the nuance of whether it should be allowed or freedom of expression or artistic license or the context behind it...
...all that matters is that Steam is a business located in the USA, and in the USA, people don't fuck around with even remotely hinting at underage sexuality stuff. Hence, it got axed.

As far as PayPal blocking things, the only thing PayPal has been shown to block is stuff that violates Visa/Mastercard terms, and almost universally it's political stuff that's getting hit (that's another whole bag of worms, and regardless of how you feel about it, when it comes to hentai, PayPal and Patreon are a million miles away from doing anything about it, considering the two companies worked out a deal specifically to allow adult games on Patreon through PayPal, and Steam setup all their guidelines and filter system pretty much specifically for adult games as well, so they're not going to mass-ban those either.)

In the history of Patreon, no one has ever been banned off of the site without being offered recourse that I've ever heard of (i.e. being able to change something on their Patreon to be allowed back on), besides Lauren Southern.

Usually multiple times they're offered recourse, at that.

And for Steam, only about 3-4 games have been banned so far, all of them falling under the "potentially underage characters in a school setting", with one exception being a game that actually had no underage characters but still went and said something along the lines of "if you see anyone in this game that seems underage, well, they're not", which just put a big target on them.

Things really aren't nearly as drastic or ban-happy as certain groups would want you to believe

 

[J_C]

In the history of Patreon, no one has ever been banned off of the site without being offered recourse that I've ever heard of (i.e. being able to change something on their Patreon to be allowed back on), besides Lauren Southern.

You haven't heard about the Sargon of Akkad debacle, have you? :D Just say the word "nigger" on video not even related to Patreon and you might get banned without warning.

 

[HentaiWriter]

You haven't heard about the Sargon of Akkad debacle, have you? :D Just say the word "nigger" on video not even related to Patreon and you might get banned without warning.

Oh no, I've heard about it quite extensively. He wasn't banned.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/technology/patreon-hate-speech-bans.html

The article has obvious bias in it, but notice these parts right here;

"If someone has breached Patreon’s policy, the company contacts the offender with a specific plan, which usually involves asking for the content to be removed and for a public apology."
"Mr. Benjamin used the N-word and anti-gay language during an interview posted to YouTube on Feb. 7, Patreon found."
"On Dec. 6, the company told Mr. Benjamin that it would freeze his account and that he could appeal."
"Mr. Benjamin did not respond to attempts to engage him in the reform process, Ms. Hart said."

Meaning, he could have absolutely stayed on Patreon had he just taken down that content.

Again, regardless of where you stand on the issue, if you think he's in the right, if you think he's in the wrong, what it really boils down to is that businesses and companies dealing with the mainstream absolutely do not want to be associated with people who say inflammatory things. It doesn't matter if you were saying it to nazis, or anyone else, they don't want to deal with people who are posting political stuff or saying things that can cause a large amount of negativity on their platforms.

(So just don't talk about politics on your public platform and don't use incendiary words either. It's that easy. If you can't get by without doing that, you're going to have to accept the risks that come with the way internet culture, social media, and business all intermingle in the modern day.)

Patreon did send out numerous messages and newsletters earlier this year noting that you can be banned for your actions on another platform, following suit with what Twitter, Facebook, Twitch, Youtube, Tumblr, and just about every other platform added into their ToS earlier in 2018, but it's definitely on Patreon to change their own public-facing ToS to mirror what their internal policy is so that people don't have to refer to an old newsletter, I agree for sure.

(It also kind of confuses me why people are so upset over this when thousands of cases of people being banned off of those platforms I just mentioned that aren't Patreon happened over the last year or two, for much milder things. Most jobs nowadays will look up your Facebook and social media before hiring you too, and no, that's not discrimination.)

But the thing is, companies just don't want to be involved with people posting that stuff. So if you want to have a business where your business is "you" and the things you make or say as a brand, just don't say stuff that's certain to rile up people on public platforms. You can call it censorship or lack of free speech or whatever you'd like, but at the end of the day, companies and businesses own all of these websites you're using to post your stuff on, and therefore they can ban you for any reason at any time, since you're not employed by them, i.e. it's not discrimination, so if you don't want to get banned, you pretty much have to;

A) play by their rules
B) not use their service
C) become obscenely powerful to the level of someone like Bill Gates or Elon Musk where you can essentially throw your weight around and force platforms to ignore the rules for you

Those are your choices, basically.
I'll take continuing to have a roof over my head and getting to pay my coworkers vs starting a fight I can't win on a hill I have no interest or stake in dying on.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Those are your choices, basically.

No. You're not allowed to have a choice. You will do as they say, or be prevented from functioning online.

Sargon (and several other Patreon users) turned to another donation platform, SubscribeStar, to continue receiving donations.

Except PayPal *mysteriously* decided to lock out SubscribeStar shortly after Sargon joined up.

Patreon's "Trust & Safety" board is headed by a woman (Jacqueline Hart) who worked for 10 years at PayPal as a payment manager (or something similar) before joining Patreon.

Surely PayPal's actions against SubscribeStar are just a coincidence.

Oh, and she has been contacting Patreon users directly, but only under the condition that they do not record the conversation in any way.

 

[J_C]

You haven't heard about the Sargon of Akkad debacle, have you? :D Just say the word "nigger" on video not even related to Patreon and you might get banned without warning.

Oh no, I've heard about it quite extensively. He wasn't banned.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/technology/patreon-hate-speech-bans.html

The article has obvious bias in it, but notice these parts right here;

"If someone has breached Patreon’s policy, the company contacts the offender with a specific plan, which usually involves asking for the content to be removed and for a public apology."
"Mr. Benjamin used the N-word and anti-gay language during an interview posted to YouTube on Feb. 7, Patreon found."
"On Dec. 6, the company told Mr. Benjamin that it would freeze his account and that he could appeal."
"Mr. Benjamin did not respond to attempts to engage him in the reform process, Ms. Hart said."

Meaning, he could have absolutely stayed on Patreon had he just taken down that content.

Again, regardless of where you stand on the issue, if you think he's in the right, if you think he's in the wrong, what it really boils down to is that businesses and companies dealing with the mainstream absolutely do not want to be associated with people who say inflammatory things. It doesn't matter if you were saying it to nazis, or anyone else, they don't want to deal with people who are posting political stuff or saying things that can cause a large amount of negativity on their platforms.

(So just don't talk about politics on your public platform and don't use incendiary words either. It's that easy. If you can't get by without doing that, you're going to have to accept the risks that come with the way internet culture, social media, and business all intermingle in the modern day.)

Patreon did send out numerous messages and newsletters earlier this year noting that you can be banned for your actions on another platform, following suit with what Twitter, Facebook, Twitch, Youtube, Tumblr, and just about every other platform added into their ToS earlier in 2018, but it's definitely on Patreon to change their own public-facing ToS to mirror what their internal policy is so that people don't have to refer to an old newsletter, I agree for sure.

(It also kind of confuses me why people are so upset over this when thousands of cases of people being banned off of those platforms I just mentioned that aren't Patreon happened over the last year or two, for much milder things. Most jobs nowadays will look up your Facebook and social media before hiring you too, and no, that's not discrimination.)

But the thing is, companies just don't want to be involved with people posting that stuff. So if you want to have a business where your business is "you" and the things you make or say as a brand, just don't say stuff that's certain to rile up people on public platforms. You can call it censorship or lack of free speech or whatever you'd like, but at the end of the day, companies and businesses own all of these websites you're using to post your stuff on, and therefore they can ban you for any reason at any time, since you're not employed by them, i.e. it's not discrimination, so if you don't want to get banned, you pretty much have to;

A) play by their rules
B) not use their service
C) become obscenely powerful to the level of someone like Bill Gates or Elon Musk where you can essentially throw your weight around and force platforms to ignore the rules for you

Those are your choices, basically.
I'll take continuing to have a roof over my head and getting to pay my coworkers vs starting a fight I can't win on a hill I have no interest or stake in dying on.

I don't want to turn this topic into politics but there is 2 things to note. First, Akkad didn't say that noughty word in his own video, it was not his content (he was a guest on another channel), so I don't think he could just easily remove it, even if he wanted to. Second, there are many leftist people on Patreon who constantly break the rules, yet Patreon didn't ban them, even when others notified them about this breach of rules. So it is mostly about political censorship of the right. They can do that, it's their platform, and as you have said, if you want to remain on the platform, you have to play by their rules. I was just saying that there are people who can do whatever they want, and Patreon won't touch them, and there are others that might get banned if they make a wrong step.

Also, it was kinda scummy that Patreon only changed their TOS *after* the Akkad issue. Before that, their TOS specifically said that they only look at your presence on Patreon, and not your whole online presence. Now it says that they are monitoring your online presence everywhere.

"On Dec. 6, the company told Mr. Benjamin that it would freeze his account and that he could appeal."
"Mr. Benjamin did not respond to attempts to engage him in the reform process, Ms. Hart said."

Meaning, he could have absolutely stayed on Patreon had he just taken down that content.

Akkad showed the messages from Patreon, and I haven't seen that Patreon offered him a resolution. Akkad appealed, yet nothing happened. I think Patreon is spinning this their way.

This fucking world we live in. These are basically payment processor sites (along with Paypal). Imagine saying a naughty word online somewhere, and 2 months later your bank calls you that your account has been terminated.

But I digress, didn't want to derail the thread with politics.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

Those are your choices, basically.

No. You're not allowed to have a choice. You will do as they say, or be prevented from functioning online.

Sargon (and several other Patreon users) turned to another donation platform, SubscribeStar, to continue receiving donations.

Except PayPal *mysteriously* decided to lock out SubscribeStar shortly after Sargon joined up.

Patreon's "Trust & Safety" board is headed by a woman (Jacqueline Hart) who worked for 10 years at PayPal as a payment manager (or something similar) before joining Patreon.

Surely PayPal's actions against SubscribeStar are just a coincidence.

Oh, and she has been contacting Patreon users directly, but only under the condition that they do not record the conversation in any way.

Sargons mistake was not saying "nigger", it was trying to move into politics, after saying nigger. He drew a spotlight on himself, and this was the result. Whether he was squeaky clean or not, patreon would have manufactured some outrage or casus belli to justify banning him eventually after he talked about joining ukip and was seen with them. It's happened to others who have done similar and weren't stupid enough to say nigger on the internet, while tied to their personal identity. Patreon, paypal, youtube, et al are not bipartisan, and sargon already should have known this as well.

Also, sargon has said a lot of stupid shit over the years, even if it wasn't the nigger comment, something would have gotten him in that instance. As I said before, after ukip it wasn't a matter of if, but when.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Yeah, I mean again like I said, you can have your viewpoints on it (and I do agree that no party in this whole issue is without fault and both parties need to work on things) but I'm not here to do politics, I'm here to make games.

If Patreon were to threaten that, or Steam, or PayPal, or whatever else, then you have to adapt and change to fit the market and what you can and can't do.

Spending all your time trying to change the world when you're basically in the little leagues (talking about myself) does nothing but get you squashed.

If you want to change the world to how you see fit, get power by making something of yourself, then take actual action, instead of just being upset about this or that and spinning your wheels.

But yeah this is why I don't focus on, nor really care for politics. It's all subjective and based around opinions. Everyone has problems with their statements and treatment of it within someone else's perspective.

Getting back to games though, yeah, I'm almost done crunching for these demos so once that's done I'll answer that post in detail about what would be the best general course of action in starting adult games for yourself.

 

[Dexter]

I'll take continuing to have a roof over my head and getting to pay my coworkers vs starting a fight I can't win on a hill I have no interest or stake in dying on.

You might have no interest in it, but you certainly have a stake and ultimately it might have an interest in you (or your activities).

We're talking about the year Tumblr banned porn: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/style/tumblr-porn.html and Patreon increased their crackdown on adult content that started in 2017 and as you note also political content: http://archive.vn/L4qPq and SONY has decided to censor games with any sort of suggested nudity in them even in Japan and other locales based on the "Standards" established by their new San Mateo HQ: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/...atch-global-standards-and-protect-kids/72781/

Ultimately relying on a "partner" for one's income that has no objective standards for their content moderation and makes decisions on a "case-by-case basis", can change their Terms on a whim from day to day and has almost complete power over you isn't a good position to be in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7hvZee-PQ

It wasn't really about Sargon, but wider groups of people realizing that Patreon has no real standards and acquiesces to mobs and political censorship, and various other "creators" jumped ship, among the bigger ones the likes of Sam Harris, Scott Adams, Luke Rudkowski/WeAreChange, Geeks+Gamers and lately even Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin with mentions of intent by other big "creators" like Sword & Scale etc.

Your products just have to be declared "misogynistic", "harmful", "unsafe" or "offensive" or whatever and they might be equally targetted as undesirable. Ultimately there's a lot of people relying on the fallacy that if they stay down and duck out of the way they might be eaten last.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you!

 

[HentaiWriter]

Patreon increased their crackdown on types of adult content, none of which I have in my own games nor will ever have.

Those changes were brought on by credit card providers, which is why every other porn site suddenly switched their rules too, and now with the exception of Steam, that content is pretty banned across the board in the west for the most part.

As for the other cases, those are true, Tumblr banned porn because they got bought out by Yahoo and Sony is just going nuts.

But if you look at the positive side of things;
- Steam allowed porn games with barely any regulation which is HUGE for the industry
- Nintendo is allowing a lot more lewd stuff in their games
- Multiple new storefronts for adult games opened up
- Patreon has went out of it's way to allow adult content that doesn't have incest or bestiality (and we've checked our games through them many times, they've signed off every time saying they were fine)

And so on. Positives are happening, and if Patreon suddenly changed it's rules because of credit card providers, then we'd have to change the content in our game.
We planned ahead to setup the games so that if ant given possible piece of content would need to be removed (even so much as stripping out all the porn), the game would still be fine and function as intended as a game.
If you're going to do stuff where, as you said, people have control over your content, then you should plan to have backups so that your game can be shifted to remove said content if need be and still have the game be only marginally affected, with the most important/critical content being the safest from any sort of regulation.

Almost done with the demos though and then I'll reply to that post.

 

[Spectacle]

Patreon itself is as dependent on that porn money as anyone else, they're unlikely to ban their main source of income. Taking a cut off donations to SJW blags isn't going to pay the bills for long.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Patreon itself is as dependent on that porn money as anyone else, they're unlikely to ban their main source of income. Taking a cut off donations to SJW blags isn't going to pay the bills for long.

Surprisingly, porn games make up much less than you'd think. According to graphtreon;
https://graphtreon.com/patreon-stats/adult-games vs https://graphtreon.com/patreon-stats

Adult games make up less than 7% of all pledges on patreon, and a bit less than 10% of the income.
Even if you combine every "adult" category on graphtreon together, I think it still only makes up about 30% of patreon earnings from what i'm seeing, and that's again combining photography, writing, cosplay, podcasts, animation, etc.

 

[A horse of course]

Those are your choices, basically.

No. You're not allowed to have a choice. You will do as they say, or be prevented from functioning online.

Sargon (and several other Patreon users) turned to another donation platform, SubscribeStar, to continue receiving donations.

Except PayPal *mysteriously* decided to lock out SubscribeStar shortly after Sargon joined up.

Patreon's "Trust & Safety" board is headed by a woman (Jacqueline Hart) who worked for 10 years at PayPal as a payment manager (or something similar) before joining Patreon.

Surely PayPal's actions against SubscribeStar are just a coincidence.

Oh, and she has been contacting Patreon users directly, but only under the condition that they do not record the conversation in any way.

She failed to specify that they do not transcribe the conversation, however, and a couple of those who spoke to her have made videos about their encounters, which basically show what everyone already expected - she bullshits her way through every question with platitudes and vague soundbites, contradicting herself repeatedly (e.g. implying Mastercard was behind the decision, then claiming Mastercard had nothing to do with it), and most importantly refusing to actually explain any sort of concrete or practical rules for users to follow, admitting that literally every decision was "case-by-case" and "subjective" - particularly when they tried to press her, for example, on whether saying "nigger" off-site is a violation of Patreon's meaningless content guidelines (because she knows very well that A: Admitting Patreon is banning people for off-site actions is a huge red flag, and B: They'd have to ban a shitload of other, high-revenue Patreon accounts for such offenses).

 

[adrix89]

Even if you combine every "adult" category on graphtreon together, I think it still only makes up about 30% of patreon earnings from what i'm seeing, and that's again combining photography, writing, cosplay, podcasts, animation, etc.

That's still a good chunk in total.

But it makes sense that most of them is video and podcasts which is used for Youtube channels and streamers.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Those are your choices, basically.

No. You're not allowed to have a choice. You will do as they say, or be prevented from functioning online.

Sargon (and several other Patreon users) turned to another donation platform, SubscribeStar, to continue receiving donations.

Except PayPal *mysteriously* decided to lock out SubscribeStar shortly after Sargon joined up.

Patreon's "Trust & Safety" board is headed by a woman (Jacqueline Hart) who worked for 10 years at PayPal as a payment manager (or something similar) before joining Patreon.

Surely PayPal's actions against SubscribeStar are just a coincidence.

Oh, and she has been contacting Patreon users directly, but only under the condition that they do not record the conversation in any way.

She failed to specify that they do not transcribe the conversation, however, and a couple of those who spoke to her have made videos about their encounters, which basically show what everyone already expected - she bullshits her way through every question with platitudes and vague soundbites, contradicting herself repeatedly (e.g. implying Mastercard was behind the decision, then claiming Mastercard had nothing to do with it), and most importantly refusing to actually explain any sort of concrete or practical rules for users to follow, admitting that literally every decision was "case-by-case" and "subjective" - particularly when they tried to press her, for example, on whether saying "nigger" off-site is a violation of Patreon's meaningless content guidelines (because she knows very well that A: Admitting Patreon is banning people for off-site actions is a huge red flag, and B: They'd have to ban a shitload of other, high-revenue Patreon accounts for such offenses).

I liked the part in Matt's video where it was implied that you would need to run content past them before publishing, im imagining a very active person that tweets and posts videos and content in large volume burying the trust and safety group, then after it really slows the fuck down suing them for tortuous interference of their livelihood. They were trying to comply with suggested standards to remain on good terms with them but they were ill equipped to handle the volume of content I produce in a timely manner and its reducing their income.

Seeing as they want to investigate ALL online content, thats a shitload of content to parse, on many different systems and mediums. Snow that bitch in with paperwork