An underutilized RPG mechanic

[Deleted Member 16721]

Overpowered characters joining your party *yet having the game balanced around having the overpowered character at that time*. What I mean is, something like Final Fantasy Tactics. At one point you get a couple overpowered (compared to your current group) characters. They have awesome abilities, mindblowing stats and are just cool as shit because of it. Yet the game doesn't become easy, it takes into account that you now have those characters and the game remains challenging, not through level scaling but through level design.

I wish more RPGs used this approach. I love finding a very powerful item or companion and the game doesn't become a pushover because of it, but rather it stays challenging because they were expecting you to have this awesome character fighting with you. Why more RPGs don't follow this design I have no idea. Because balance means everything is homogenized and no room for this sort of thing, blech.

Another underutilized tool is telling story from multiple views. I love in Suikoden 3 how you can view the story from 3 main characters perspectives, complete with their own chapters of intrigue and storytelling. The characters intertwine and eventually it turns into one big story but the storytelling from 3 points of view is superb. Would love to see this done on a smaller scale in a CRPG, where you could view the overall story from different perspectives. And Suikoden 3 has 108 recruitable companions and they *all have more information then most CRPGs with 10 companions*. How? Through body gestures, their gameplay and fighting techniques, their animations, their physical design, a quote here or there, and you can even hire a kid investigator to investigate their background to learn more about them in text. Suikoden 3 is a marvel of RPG design in several areas and no one has tried that since. Instead we get walls of text and backstory and the characters don't even have the same charm as a character that has barely any words in Suikoden 3. Rant ovah.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I liked how having sephiroth at the beginning of FF7 made it all feel trivial due to his strength. Bonus points for when you fight him at the end and notice the massive difference in power levels between the two of you.

 

[Товарищ]

Move to JRPG (the trashbin) please.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Have you played Grimoire?

 

[Drowed]

I think this is an interesting idea that could actually be used in many ways. Not only rebalancing the enemies so that the challenge remains the same, but maybe the participation of this character could serve other purposes. For example, it could be a temporary ally to you, but you could find it later in the story when you were strong enough to be with him - which could serve as an interesting moment in story that could be recognized by characters in a dialogue. Or he could also be an enemy, depending on your choices, without any change in his stats. That would be very interesting because you would be facing a character who was previously part of your group.

 

[Butter]

Fallout 4 does this by giving you power armor and having you fight a Deathclaw 15 minutes into the game.

 

[laclongquan]

Overpowered characters joining your party *yet having the game balanced around having the overpowered character at that time*. What I mean is, something like Final Fantasy Tactics. At one point you get a couple overpowered (compared to your current group) characters. They have awesome abilities, mindblowing stats and are just cool as shit because of it. Yet the game doesn't become easy, it takes into account that you now have those characters and the game remains challenging, not through level scaling but through level design.

What?

You are asking a utility jack-of-all-trade who even if superbly overlevel compared to other members, still doesnt affect party's overall fighting abilities.

The entire concept of Bard is around having a even-if-overlevel- snowflake of a character, ie doesnt affect a party's fighting strength that much. IWD2 Show that.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[OSK]

One of the Shadowrun games (I think Dragonfall?) during a mission gave you the option of having an overpowered, murderous experiment "join" you for the rest of the mission.

 

[Skdursh]

Overpowered characters joining your party *yet having the game balanced around having the overpowered character at that time*. What I mean is, something like Final Fantasy Tactics. At one point you get a couple overpowered (compared to your current group) characters. They have awesome abilities, mindblowing stats and are just cool as shit because of it. Yet the game doesn't become easy, it takes into account that you now have those characters and the game remains challenging, not through level scaling but through level design.

Having Thundergod Cid join the party and getting a few of the other OP / or secret characters made Final Fantasy Tactics absolutely trivial. The game was just far too easy once you got a few of the OP characters. I had to intentionally leave them behind in order to prevent the game from getting stale from a lack of challenge. I like the idea, but FFT did not really implement it as well as your rose colored glasses might be telling you it did.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

Move to JRPG (the trashbin) please.

I was assured this was a racism free site.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Move to JRPG (the trashbin) please.

I was assured this was a racism free site.

You get plenty of racism for free here.

 

[laclongquan]

Or he could also be an enemy, depending on your choices, without any change in his stats. That would be very interesting because you would be facing a character who was previously part of your group.

Sounds like Ignus in Planescape Torment.
Or Bishop in Neverwinter NIght2 Original Campaign.
Or Yoshimo in BG2

Hell, Final Fantasy 9 has all you ask for.

 

[Ladonna]

Legend of Faerghail had Hawk Slayer right from leaving the first town, and if you say no to him your party needs to do a lot of fleeing for some time to come.

Most of the Goldbox games had certain areas where a (sometimes) overpowered companion would join up (Buck Rogers on the pirate vessel, A dragon in one of the towns in Champions of Krynn, etc).

 

[Drowed]

Sounds like Ignus in Planescape Torment.
Or Bishop in Neverwinter NIght2 Original Campaign.
Or Yoshimo in BG2

Hell, Final Fantasy 9 has all you ask for.

Ignus and Yoshimo didn't start overpowered, like way above your level and power level, as far as I remember. The point would be to find a character absurdly stronger than you, and then in the future he become an enemy. But I didn't play much of NWN2 OC or FF9, so I can't say if it applies.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Overpowered characters joining your party *yet having the game balanced around having the overpowered character at that time*. What I mean is, something like Final Fantasy Tactics. At one point you get a couple overpowered (compared to your current group) characters. They have awesome abilities, mindblowing stats and are just cool as shit because of it. Yet the game doesn't become easy, it takes into account that you now have those characters and the game remains challenging, not through level scaling but through level design.

Having Thundergod Cid join the party and getting a few of the other OP / or secret characters made Final Fantasy Tactics absolutely trivial. The game was just far too easy once you got a few of the OP characters. I had to intentionally leave them behind in order to prevent the game from getting stale from a lack of challenge. I like the idea, but FFT did not really implement it as well as your rose colored glasses might be telling you it did.

He's talking about the purely guest characters you'd occasionally get in FFTactics like Gaffgarion. Gaffgarion has the unique Fallen Knight class which is like a souped up version of Dark Knight with its own unique attacks and while he can easily trample most enemies you meet at that stage in the game, it's still possible to lose those fights.

Before she officially joins you, Agrias is another guest character that is pretty strong since she has the Holy Knight class you can still lose some battles with her joining you such as where you need to save the Machinist.

Personally I like when an RPG has those 'specialized' classes for certain characters. Like, they're not a simple Paladin, they're a Templar or they're not a run-of-the-mill Thief but they're an Assassin instead.

 

[Reinhardt]

In Evenicle two op characters join you for a short time and you can even beat one of the optional bosses with them. In achievements journal game mock you for this.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

He's talking about the purely guest characters you'd occasionally get in FFTactics like Gaffgarion. Gaffgarion has the unique Fallen Knight class which is like a souped up version of Dark Knight with its own unique attacks and while he can easily trample most enemies you meet at that stage in the game, it's still possible to lose those fights.

Before she officially joins you, Agrias is another guest character that is pretty strong since she has the Holy Knight class you can still lose some battles with her joining you such as where you need to save the Machinist.

Personally I like when an RPG has those 'specialized' classes for certain characters. Like, they're not a simple Paladin, they're a Templar or they're not a run-of-the-mill Thief but they're an Assassin instead.

I like you, Spider. You and I think alike on these things. I too love when an RPG has those specialized classes. Seeing Agrias as a Holy Knight was a "wow" moment for me as a kid. And she eventually joined and was quite powerful yet the battles still could be lost with her. And eventually that really badass, old dude joins, it might Gaffgarion or someone else, also a Holy Knight IIRC. But the battles can still be lost, so the game does a good job of balancing that.

And just off the record but secret characters aren't that powerful in Tactics. Cloud is kind of weak. I remember 100%ing that game so many times as a kid, that at one point my end party was one character and 3 hydras. :D Good times, man, good times. (You could recruit monsters in the game and hydras were among the strongest types.)

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

it might Gaffgarion or someone else, also a Holy Knight IIRC.

I think that was Cid.

Spoiler

Gaffgarion sets the party up to be killed at the waterfall and is later fought two more times. One at the execution gallows and the other in a "duel" with Ramza while your other party members fights his crew on the other side of the gate.

And yeah, I'm not normally into JRPGs and often consider them insufferable dogshit but FF Tactics is one of the very few I actually quite liked. It has lots of great music. Try to find me a motherfucker that doesn't get hyped when Trisection plays.

Then again JRPGs from the '90s seemed much different from the degeneracy they'd later devolve into. You actually had characters in those games that were allowed to be above the age of 18.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

What I find particularly annoying is when boss enemies join you and yet they not only lose all their power but the unique moves they'd just used in the battle they fought you in.

 

[Sykar]

One of the Shadowrun games (I think Dragonfall?) during a mission gave you the option of having an overpowered, murderous experiment "join" you for the rest of the mission.

The troll cyberzombie, yes. He was a pure killing machine though the enemy riggers could hack him if you did not take care of them and he would turn on you.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And yeah, I'm not normally into JRPGs and often consider them insufferable dogshit but FF Tactics is one of the very few I actually quite liked. It has lots of great music. Try to find me a motherfucker that doesn't get hyped when Trisection plays.

Then again JRPGs from the '90s seemed much different from the degeneracy they'd later devolve into. You actually had characters in those games that were allowed to be above the age of 18.

CId was the grenadier type, right? I'm talking about the old dude, Holy Knight even stronger than Agrias. But have you tried Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. Another masterpiece, I like it even more than FFT. That's another game where you can recruit a ton of unique and memorable characters, some of which are pretty strong to begin with. I'd consider Canopus early on an overpowered character with his gift of flight.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

And yeah, I'm not normally into JRPGs and often consider them insufferable dogshit but FF Tactics is one of the very few I actually quite liked. It has lots of great music. Try to find me a motherfucker that doesn't get hyped when Trisection plays.

Then again JRPGs from the '90s seemed much different from the degeneracy they'd later devolve into. You actually had characters in those games that were allowed to be above the age of 18.

CId was the grenadier type, right? I'm talking about the old dude, Holy Knight even stronger than Agrias. But have you tried Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. Another masterpiece, I like it even more than FFT. That's another game where you can recruit a ton of unique and memorable characters, some of which are pretty strong to begin with. I'd consider Canopus early on an overpowered character with his gift of flight.

He may have been, it has been at least eight years since I last played it. I know there was some real tough fucker you got though that was a complete monster of a man. I actually never played Tactics Ogre but I've always been interested in it. Finding it for PS1 seemed impossible at the time and I missed it completely on the PSP. How is the storyline like? Is it along the lines of the political intrigue like FF Tactics was? I heard people mention it had deeper gameplay and more complex systems in combat.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

He may have been, it has been at least eight years since I last played it. I know there was some real tough fucker you got though that was a complete monster of a man. I actually never played Tactics Ogre but I've always been interested in it. Finding it for PS1 seemed impossible at the time and I missed it completely on the PSP. How is the storyline like? Is it along the lines of the political intrigue like FF Tactics was? I heard people mention it had deeper gameplay and more complex systems in combat.

It's way more complex than Tactics in my opinion. Very political storyline but with branching paths based on your alignment, in other words choices to make that determine the story and even who stays or goes (if they don't like your choices they may leave based on alignment conflicts.) It's a great, great game. Tons of recruitable companions, some secret ones, some that are tough as nails to recruit. The combat is more difficult, there's permadeath, the game on the whole is more difficult and deeper, and it's got a great storyline. I prefer it over Tactics by a lot if we're talking strategy RPGs. Plus the pixel art is gorgeous, that true 16-bit style. Definitely get a hold of an emulator and play it. Protip - in the SNES version you had to train after each mission, which consisted of every member taking turns KO'ing the highest level guy in your party, then KO'ing the guy who just leveled up, and so on. The PSP removed that but added useless features that detract from the game and streamlined it too much. To me the SNES version is the superior one. Just take my tip on training, have every member take turns KO'ing the one level higher guy, which makes the one who KO'd him one level higher, and then KO that guy until you're all one level higher. A bit tedious but the game is well worth it.

Several different endings, too, depending on who you side with and the choices you make.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

He may have been, it has been at least eight years since I last played it. I know there was some real tough fucker you got though that was a complete monster of a man. I actually never played Tactics Ogre but I've always been interested in it. Finding it for PS1 seemed impossible at the time and I missed it completely on the PSP. How is the storyline like? Is it along the lines of the political intrigue like FF Tactics was? I heard people mention it had deeper gameplay and more complex systems in combat.

It's way more complex than Tactics in my opinion. Very political storyline but with branching paths based on your alignment, in other words choices to make that determine the story and even who stays or goes (if they don't like your choices they may leave based on alignment conflicts.) It's a great, great game. Tons of recruitable companions, some secret ones, some that are tough as nails to recruit. The combat is more difficult, there's permadeath, the game on the whole is more difficult and deeper, and it's got a great storyline. I prefer it over Tactics by a lot if we're talking strategy RPGs. Plus the pixel art is gorgeous, that true 16-bit style. Definitely get a hold of an emulator and play it. Protip - in the SNES version you had to train after each mission, which consisted of every member taking turns KO'ing the highest level guy in your party, then KO'ing the guy who just leveled up, and so on. The PSP removed that but added useless features that detract from the game and streamlined it too much. To me the SNES version is the superior one. Just take my tip on training, have every member take turns KO'ing the one level higher guy, which makes the one who KO'd him one level higher, and then KO that guy until you're all one level higher. A bit tedious but the game is well worth it.

Several different endings, too, depending on who you side with and the choices you make.

Is there a decent translation patch for the SNES version? It's what made me held off on trying it on emulator for a long time since a lot of fan patches can be pretty hit and miss. I'll have to give it a try when I feel that SRPG want hit me again, the last one I played was Vandal Hearts II some years ago which is actually a really good game which got overlooked.