Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[ArchAngel]

Well, shattered, flat-footed enemies have almost no touch AC

As for more damage then any melee... 8d6+4 is average 32 damage per hit. Plus maybe a little Burn bonus. But with 20/x2 crits. I think plenty of melees can do much better. Of course, in any case its still very nice for a tank.

Although Empowered that would be about 46 on average, maybe 50 with Burn... that's even better.
I haven't played a Kineticist yet, can you perma-empower?

It’s less damage than an optimized Nok-Nok, but it’s a great package deal. That damage is being dealt to everyone in an AOE, and checking for Trips or Pushes with every attack, which triggers AOO from allies (not you).

Kineticist can perma empower, and that’s why most people recommend going Kineticist over Kinetic Knight. Kineticist just has a very painful Level 1-4.

Kineticist cannot perma empower unless you use Gather Power which costs at least a move action every round. Also that trip only works with Earth Blast and Earth Blast is not a touch attack.

Kinetic Knight does non Empowered damage with every hit and he can have 3 attacks +1 from Haste.

 

[Incendax]

Kineticist cannot perma empower unless you use Gather Power which costs at least a move action every round. Also that trip only works with Earth Blast and Earth Blast is not a touch attack.

You can do a supercharged move action Gather Power every turn without negatively impacting your AOE. Trip is physical, but if your To Hit is good enough there is little reason not to use physical attacks since they do so much more damage.

 

[ArchAngel]

Kineticist cannot perma empower unless you use Gather Power which costs at least a move action every round. Also that trip only works with Earth Blast and Earth Blast is not a touch attack.

You can do a supercharged move action Gather Power every turn without negatively impacting your AOE. Trip is physical, but if your To Hit is good enough there is little reason not to use physical attacks since they do so much more damage.

Exactly what I said. But it does not make Kineticist superior to KK as KK can do more than one attack per round, does not cause AoO and has better defense.

Also vs enemies you really want to trip, those always have crazy AC and you want to hit their touch AC.

KK also can have perma Defensive Fighting on when using touch version of his melee attack as it will not impact that much his hit chances. I have to try if Power Attack works with touch version of his melee attack. That would be awesome and "free" bonus damage.

I rather do 2-3 attacks with melee than one empowered (that is only 50% damage bonus to one attack).

 

[Incendax]

Exactly what I said. But it does not make Kineticist superior to KK as KK can do more than one attack per round, does not cause AoO and has better defense.

Kineticist can also take Kinetic Blade. The discount difference is 1, and the KK never gets Supercharge to help with Composite costs. The only time KK is blatantly superior is Levels 1-4.

I rather do 2-3 attacks with melee than one empowered (that is only 50% damage bonus to one attack).

Kinetic Knight (8th) - Hasted - Deals 1 attack on the first round, and 3 attacks on the second round, 3 attacks on the third round, and 3 attacks on the fourth round. 10 multipliers on damage. 10 attempts to Trip/Push. Kineticist (8th) - Gathers Power for 1, then empowered shoots for 1.5 AOE each round. 6 multipliers on damage per target. 4 attempts to Trip/Push per target.

We can see that Kineticist pulls ahead on damage any time there are two targets in range, but needs three targets to have more Trip/Push attempts. So the KK is a good vehicle for delivering Trip/Push, but the Kineticist can come close while keeping his options open. Or he can pull out his own Kinetic Blade and do the same thing.

 

[ArchAngel]

What is this AoE you are talking about?
I have only seen water and fire AoE. Both do half damage and have a save for 1/4 damage.
Is Earth AoE different? Does it hit allies like water and fire one?

Why are you so obsessed with trip/rush, most enemies have such crazy CMD trip/rush rarely works? KK does better damage to single target which is more important in 90% of the dangerous fights. Taking down the most powerful enemy fastest.

I agree that kineticist is a good class as well but it is not clearly superior to KK except when you can have empowered composite blasts that you can use in one round without suffering burn and this is not something that happens early.

Also how has this turned from KK being best tank+damage dealer into comparing it with a non tank Kineticists... shouldn't you compare Kineticist with Mages, Druids and such classes?

Or are you going to claim that pure Kineticist is also a better tank than KK? With all the extra feats needed or multiclassing, I doubt it. Not to mention that kinetic blade is not 0 cost for Kineticist so you are stuck gathering power for a long time before doing any attacks and haste being useless for you.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Incendax]

What is this AoE you are talking about?
I have only seen water and fire AoE. Both do half damage and have a save for 1/4 damage.
Is Earth AoE different? Does it hit allies like water and fire one?

Earth, Water, and Air do the same damage with their AOE as their single target damage.
Fire Composites do more damage with their single target for reasons.
Charged Water and Extended Range Ice are bugged and doing the same damage as Fire Composites.

Why are you so obsessed with trip/rush, most enemies have such crazy CMD trip/rush rarely works? KK does better damage to single target which is more important in 90% of the dangerous fights. Taking down the most powerful enemy fastest.

Trip/Push provoke AOO from your allies and prevent most enemies from taking full attacks. You can successfully Trip/Push quite a lot of high level enemies (though not all).

I agree that kineticist is a good class as well but it is not clearly superior to KK except when you can have empowered composite blasts that you can use in one round without suffering burn and this is not something that happens early.

Kineticist can use Kinetic Blade for free at Level 5. The advantage of Kinetic Knight is using their blade for free during Level 1-4, and getting a 1 point discount on Kinetic Blade which allows them to add slightly more infusions... which are mostly physical ones like Trip/Push or Magnetic.

Or are you going to claim that pure Kineticist is also a better tank than KK? With all the extra feats needed or multiclassing, I doubt it. Not to mention that kinetic blade is not 0 cost for Kineticist so you are stuck gathering power for a long time before doing any attacks and haste being useless for you.

They are not a better tank, but they are really close and bring a lot more to the table (Wall/Clouds/Deadly/etc).

 

[Incendax]

if you have 3 characters with shield wall feat, do you get +2 or +4 AC each? How adjacent is adjacent?

Assuming everyone is using Heavy Shields, everyone gets a single +2 AC. The “adjacent” feels pretty forgiving to me, but it is not a huge distance. It also works if the ally stands behind your tank, if for some reason you don’t want them to engage.

Notably, the feat works even if your “adjacent” ally is unconscious. =D

 

[ArchAngel]

Or are you going to claim that pure Kineticist is also a better tank than KK? With all the extra feats needed or multiclassing, I doubt it. Not to mention that kinetic blade is not 0 cost for Kineticist so you are stuck gathering power for a long time before doing any attacks and haste being useless for you.

They are not a better tank, but they are really close and bring a lot more to the table (Wall/Clouds/Deadly/etc).

So this ends this discussion.
KK is still best version of Kineticist if you want to tank from melee.
What I was wondering if any non rogue character can compare in terms of defense and offense. Their damage seems to be comparable to two handed fighters with rage while their defense is like any shield character. And they attack with touch attacks. And by lvl 16 they can have at least DR 13/adamantine. And they get Resolute that lets them reroll fort/will saves few times per day..

 

[Haplo]

Vivisectionist. Up to +8 Natural Armor, 75% Sneak and Crit immunity, up to +8 Str, Dex and Con, immunity to Paralysis, Sleep and Cold. Of course, that's also a sneak attack class.

A Sword Saint should have much better defense and be capable of going nova with offense - but regular attacks would be much less.

 

[ArchAngel]

Vivisectionist. Up to +8 Natural Armor, 75% Sneak and Crit immunity, up to +8 Str, Dex and Con, immunity to Paralysis, Sleep and Cold. Of course, that's also a sneak attack class.

A Sword Saint should have much better defense and be capable of going nova with offense - but regular attacks would be much less.

Is that a full leveled sword saint or some multiclass bastard? I guess that better defense depends on using mirror image as that is only personal spell that KK cannot get from others. For endgame, KK will be buffed with improved invisibility or displacement anyways.
Vivi is certainly a sneak attack class :D

As for better defense, one can probably turn KK into Dex version and also take a level of monk and go the usual route to get max possible AC like all these multiclass bastards. And his damage will still be better than other melee non sneak attack classes.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I'd definately dip a level of monk on a SS, who doesn't wear armor anyways

Without monk its closer I guess... but Mirror Image IS pretty huge: even when you have great AC, a lot of 20s can still hurt you. Well, with MI they don't anymore.

 

[Yosharian]

What would happen if you combine druid and cleric with animal domain into mystic theurge? Would that character have two animal companions?

When you get the second class you should get the option to continue boosting your old one. Not sure though

 

[hell bovine]

What's the best class for a summoner build? Monster Tactician or Herald Caller? Has anyone here tried those two classes?

Depends on what you want to do apart from summoning. Apparently (haven't tested it though) in order for the teamwork feats to work on summons, the tactician needs to be in melee range. With the herald caller you could stay behind the frontline and just spam summons. The other question is whether they have fixed spontanous summoning; when I tried it with a druid, it was one summon per converted spell, which kind of defeats the purpose. But that was a few hotfixes ago.

Or you could try an abyssal bloodline sorcerer.

 

[Incendax]

So this ends this discussion.

I’m still not sure if you know the Kineticist can use Kinetic Blade for free at Level 5. It seems like you keep glossing over that.

 

[ArchAngel]

So this ends this discussion.

I’m still not sure if you know the Kineticist can use Kinetic Blade for free at Level 5. It seems like you keep glossing over that.

Ok, but how does it get access to armor and shield proficiency? You lose one level or two feats... and using the blade costs one more burn.
And as soon as you equip the shield you can no longer use the Gather Power ability so Empower is mostly uselss.

 

[Gregz]

Hey guise.

Is there a build that reduces load times, disables boring quests, bypasses tedious kingdom management, and fixes terrible encounter design?

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Incendax]

is there such thing as 'decent' AC level? If so, what would be the range? Im talking whether there is a value of equipping a shield and picking some AC related feats on character that is not a main tank. I wonder whether it will significantly boost survival or will enemies hit me 95% of time anyway

40-60 is a good AC range and will work against 70% of the enemies in the game. Certain enemies will hit you anyway, so counter them in other ways. And some enemies ignore your AC and just explode / dominate you.

Is there a build that reduces load times, disables boring quests, bypasses tedious kingdom management, and fixes terrible encounter design?

Beta Build reduces loading times, though I wish it reduced them more. Taking ecstasy makes quests more enjoyable. Kingdom Resolution mod will help with Kingdom management. Getting good will help you beat encounters.

 

[ArchAngel]

I am playing beta and so far I have not noticed much difference in loading times.

 

[Sykar]

Anyone else wiped out kobolds and mite by the way?

 

[ArchAngel]

I did with my paladin. No Evil shall stay alive in my LG kingdom!

 

[Sykar]

Yeah I have my usual retarded "must try out many builds" phase where I try out a variety pf builds, play them to around level 5, and then restart. Previously I had partially neutral alignments which made dealing with it easy but as my current CG it was hard to justify wiping them out.

 

[Ent]

No need. Just turn Valerie into Kinetic Knight at lvl 2 and keep leveling her as that. First element Earth, second Water (pick Cold damage version). After that she both tanks and does more damage than any other melee except rogues. You don't need to shatter or anything.
And since all the attacks are touch she almost never misses. And she can freely use a shield as her weapon is one handed.
At high levels you can also remove the shield and use water shield instead.
So far this is the most broken shit I've seen.

Earth Element blasts are actually all physical and only the energy based blades (fire, cold, electric etc.) target touch AC.

 

[hell bovine]

Anyone else wiped out kobolds and mite by the way?

The irony is that they turn out to be your most loyal subjects. Never complain like the rest of the peasants, don't stage any riots like the rest of the peasants, and will have your back should you go against the big bad.