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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

Dyskolos

Cipher
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
571
Location
Eumeswil
I never understood why some people call bosses like Friede "unfair".

I agree but for the people who aren't just spewing retarded nonsense, I think it's the placement in the DLC. Native DS3 set the 'rulebook' of expectations and when the DLC - trying to go beyond and offer something new (3 stages, one with 2 fully independent bosses) - appeared to 'violate' the original rules people moaned. Doubly so because a bunch of people probably just jumped into an old save game and were months out of gameplay rhythm anyway.

Not that I think it applies here but the above is one of the few things I really find a weakness of the souls model - that something sold on and attracting players for difficulty suffers from pressure to constantly up the ante. Nioh I loved through NG+2 (?, can't even remember now) and expansion 1 but dropped because they lost creativity and opted for a stubbed toe to one shot you and for all new bosses to default into cancer stun combos. From is about the only company I trust to dodge that trap.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
I never understood why some people call bosses like Friede "unfair". What's unfair about it?
Three phases where she comes back with full life meter is the same for me as the criticism you do to the game where the boss regenerates.

And about the "it's just a matter of memorizing all three phases", Dancer manages to be as complex or more than her in a single (or two? can't remember) phase without regenerating. Oh and without backup from old man with cauldron.

When the game reaches the point where bosses equal regenerating back again and again with different movesets and two-shots-kill moves, the series may as well die already.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,018
All the dark souls bosses regenerate hp anyways, just slowly (well, butterfly does it fairly quickly). And there's functionally no difference between having multiple life bars and having one big life bar except for a one time 'gotcha' moment.
 

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
6,202
Location
Basement
Friede can be stunlocked easily since she doesn't have any poise except on some special moves. You can pretty much bully her with ultra weapons.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,018
That's exactly what I did. Great hammer ftw. Was kinda funny giving her the ol' charged R2 instead of backstabs for the extra damage as well.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
That's exactly what I did. Great hammer ftw. Was kinda funny giving her the ol' charged R2 instead of backstabs for the extra damage as well.
So you're defending a boss that you defeated by using the most cheesy (besides pyro) build in the game.

images


What's the point in playing a game in a way that nullifies most of the bosses moves? Why don't you use a fucking cheat engine already?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
42
The biggest problem with Friede is that the combat is too long, the longest in the entire serie. The second phase is pure boring shit, cheese or not cheese.

Typically the kind of boss fight i don't want to see in Sekiro.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Yes, the lesson here is: Friede is NOT an example to be followed no matter how you look at it. You wanna make a boss difficult then make it, but not by giving it 3 phases with new life bars each. It's lazy design. Period.
 

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
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Messages
6,202
Location
Basement
Friede may have three phases but she doesn't have a lot of health. All three phases' health bars combined are probably lower than many other bosses' one and only health bar. Like, what does it matter if a boss has three small life bars or one big life bar? IMO, a three phase fight like Friede is much more fun than a one phase fight that takes just as long but has less variety.

I just checked a bunch of gameplay videos I've recorded of various Souls bosses and Friede didn't take much if any longer than most other tough bosses when you skip all the cutscenes.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
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18,165
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Kingdom of Bohemia
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Yeah, fuck Friede.

And fuck "fighting game" bosses in general. I'd love them to bring back Demon's Souls type bosses, designed for atmosphere and awesomeness. Sadly this is not gonna happen coz brainless tryhard faggots demand only one boss type copy-pasted throughout the entire fucking world. And From is indulging them because they don't wanna hear reeeeeing about "gymmyck" and also it's much easier for them to plop down another jumping, flailing humanoid than trying to come up with something actually inventive and interesting.
 

Suicidal

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
2,221
I never understood why some people call bosses like Friede "unfair". What's unfair about it?
Three phases where she comes back with full life meter is the same for me as the criticism you do to the game where the boss regenerates.

And about the "it's just a matter of memorizing all three phases", Dancer manages to be as complex or more than her in a single (or two? can't remember) phase without regenerating. Oh and without backup from old man with cauldron.

When the game reaches the point where bosses equal regenerating back again and again with different movesets and two-shots-kill moves, the series may as well die already.

I'll have to disagree here. For me Friede and the regenerating boss I mentioned are fundamentally different and here is why:

When fighting Friede you are always aware that you are making progress with the fight. Dark Souls, at the very least, is consistent in the fact that no matter which boss you fight, as long as you keep hitting it and its HP goes down, then you can be sure that you are on the right track (with the exception of Bed of Chaos, which you barely have to attack at all). Bosses that come back with new moves after you deplete their HP bar are nothing new and I didn't feel like I was cheated or anything when she came back for the 3rd time. Once you see the 3rd form, you pretty much know what to expect and all that remains is to practice and be patient and eventually you win.

However, the regenerating boss from Labyrinth of Touhou is unfair bullshit. Why? Because the game lies to you (or rather, withholds crucial information) about how the fight works. Once you enter the regeneration phase (yes that boss has phases too), you have no idea that it even happens. You just keep damaging the boss thinking that eventually you will kill it. After all, you can see that your abilities are doing damage. You spend 10 turns damaging it and think "well it probably has a lot of HP, I must be getting closer, right?". You spend 5 more turns but the result is the same. Eventually you die not knowing that you haven't even taken the boss's HP down since the phase started. The problem with that fight is that even if you completely remove the regeneration mechanic, it still is one of the hardest bosses I've ever seen in an RPG because of how much shit you have to deal with - constant party-wide nukes, instant death spells, annoying statuses, boss giving itself free turns and the fight essentially being on a timer. It's hard to survive, let alone figure out the secret behind its invincibility that you don't even know exists. Worst part about it - the key to disabling its regeneration involves doing the opposite of what you've been doing in the previous phase. I admit, I googled that shit, because after fighting it for so long and being stuck on the same part without understanding what am I doing wrong I got frustrated. And that's the difference between a boss that's merely challenging and the boss that's unfair bullshit - I don't have to google how to beat the former.

For me to consider Friede "unfair" the game would need to do shit like, for example, forcing you to fight her with a shitty special weapon that's worse than what you have been using or making the boss's HP bar invisible and in the 2nd phase once you get their HP to 0, they starts regenerating quickly unless you make the cauldron guy splash lava on Friede 3 times or something stupid like that.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,831
Yeah, fuck Friede.

And fuck "fighting game" bosses in general. I'd love them to bring back Demon's Souls type bosses, designed for atmosphere and awesomeness. Sadly this is not gonna happen coz brainless tryhard faggots demand only one boss type copy-pasted throughout the entire fucking world. And From is indulging them because they don't wanna hear reeeeeing about "gymmyck" and also it's much easier for them to plop down another jumping, flailing humanoid than trying to come up with something actually inventive and interesting.


A game full of bed of chaos bossfights maybe?:troll:
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,401
Location
Flowery Land
You know what's fucking unfair? The final boss of Etherlords (old TBS and card game hybrid) on impossible difficulty, because on impossible your enemy has an absurdly high chance (like close to 100%, not even joking) to activate a passive effect and the final boss's passive effect is "block all damage taken", which he can activate every time you deal damage to him, effectively making him immune to any damage you can do. The only way to go around it is to level a skill that decreases the activation chance of the enemy's passive. Unfortunately, in the very last mission the game decides to take away your hero, which you have been leveling for the entire campaign, and give you a special hero that does not have this skill, so you'll be fighting an enemy that cannot be damaged by your attacks. So what do? The only way to win at this point is to make the boss lose to the timeout effect (if the battle takes too long, both sides start taking unresistable damage), but the boss has a lot more HP than your hero, so you have to use healing spells and overheal like crazy for the entire fight. Playing as a faction without any healing spells? Well fuck you then, better restart the entire campaign.

 

praetor

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,069
Location
Vhoorl
the problem with most DeS bosses (and most Souls "puzzle type" bosses in general. DeS just happens to have the highest percentage) is that they're (kinda) cool up until the first time you beat them, and then they become a boring, uninteresting slog

which is fine if you play games only to beat them once, or they're a singleplayer affair with a predefined character with limited (or none) build options (like Sekiro here).

but for a Souls type game which is "meant" to be played multiple times and provides options of many many builds? really bad... at least the ones in the Souls games. there's not a single puzzle type boss that's actually well designed [purely subjective things like "atmosphere" and audio-visual presentation in general not withstanding] so From should just stop trying. or at the very least try to make them a bit more dynamic and provide a couple of different solutions to the simple and boring puzzle
 

polo

Magister
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
All Sekiro bosses should be like BoC, best boss in the series. You even go in slidin' like a bauss.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,165
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
the problem with most DeS bosses (and most Souls "puzzle type" bosses in general. DeS just happens to have the highest percentage) is that they're (kinda) cool up until the first time you beat them, and then they become a boring, uninteresting slog

The good ones are fun for many plays, if spaced out. Only if you play the game like an MMO they become dull. But then everything does.

Plus I don't really demand for all bosses to be puzzles. All I want is some variety and not 50 shades of Artorias jam packed in every nook and cranny. My Top 5 favourite bosses are: 1. Sinh, 2. Nameless, 3. OnS, 4. Fume, 5. Astrea.

That's my perfect mix of vibe, awesome and skill. 8/10 bosses being jumping flailing humanoids makes me very, very sad puppy.
 

praetor

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,069
Location
Vhoorl
just to be clear, i have not seen any Sekiro gameplay video since the initial one, so i have no idea about any bosses in it

just to be clearer, i do not have anything against puzzle bosses per se, i just think From sucks at them (mechanically) and they're at their best with "pure skill bosses" (as your list proves... and as would 99% if not 100% of "best Soulsborne bosses" lists by nearly everyone)

and yes, variety would be cool. anybody arguing against it, is a tool.

but no, i do not agree that any of the DeS puzzle bosses (or any other Soulsborne puzzle boss, really) are good for more than one playthrough, whatever the time interval between them (ok, maybe if you play DeS one and then the next time after you get alzheimer's? :P). they all feel like youtube clickbait videos "learn THIS ONE TRICK and you'll be rid of them FOREVER! BOSSES HATE HIM!!!", and none of them really take into account build variety so even playing with another character is exactly the same (the major flaw with From puzzle boss design, imo)
 

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