Party based RPG's shouldn't have non-combat skills.

[Funposter]

It's hard or even impossible to cover everything in Kingmaker especially if you mix and match your party.

Yeah I already covered this in a post right near the beginning of the thread which you obviously didn't bother to read. There are multiple characters who receive 5 or 6 points to spend on level up, let alone if you make your own character a skill monkey. Yes, you will be unoptimal in the sense that you may be missing a +3 from it being a class skill or something like that, but it will be more than enough to cover the vast majority of checks in dialogue, with most of the failures coming from rolling a 2 instead of being statistically unequipped to deal with them. Octavia can cover Mobility, Trickery, Stealth and Knowledge: Arcana by design. She needs these skills to spec into Arcane Trickster, and the Necklace of Double Crosses (which provides a +4 to the first three) is basically made for her. You then have a point leftover to put into Knowledge: World.

Jaethal covers Athletics, Lore: Religion, Persuasion and Perception by design. You then have an extra point to put into Lore: Nature if you're so inclined, since using magical items, while useful, never comes up in dialogue as far as I know. I'm pretty sure both of these characters receive the class bonus for everything listed here, too, since I am almost certain that every skill counts as a class skill for them. Jaethal arguably isn't optimal as a face, since she only has 14 CHA and the player probably wants to boost her Wisdom for spellcasting purposes. Thankfully, there are four other characters left to cover that problem, and the player can easily be a "charisma tank" of absurd proportions by playing something like a Sorcerer or Paladin.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And when the Mobility + Nature Lore + Perception comes up with one character, you're screwed. By the way, Perception is checked on all characters. You can miss an item and another character with Perception can spot it based on the rolls. And anyone who has played knows that you won't go through the game passing every check. That's a flat out lie unless you save scum (which most of you probably do.)

 

[Funposter]

And when the Mobility + Nature Lore + Perception comes up with one character, you're screwed. By the way, Perception is checked on all characters. You can miss an item and another character with Perception can spot it based on the rolls. And anyone who has played knows that you won't go through the game passing every check. That's a flat out lie unless you save scum (which most of you probably do.)

Good thing that there's four extra characters.

The subject of savescumming is also irrelevant. Yes, it's a more pure roleplaying experience if you don't do it, but if something with high investment in the skill rolls a 2, what does that prove? "Haha, you didn't pass the check!" That doesn't disprove that every skill in a singular sense can be covered by two characters. It proves that even well built and specialized characters can get shit rolls.

Let's use your listed scenario: I've now taken all of those points out of Persuade for Jaethal and put them into Mobility. My PC face can cover those speech checks anyway. Now what? I still have three characters free to cover the other combinations of checks you might throw at me. This is also ignoring thr possibility of building custom companions that aren't terrible like many of the vanilla ones.

 

[Funposter]

didn't mean for the above post to have reddit spacing but i was typing it on my phone while i took a dump

 

[Butter]

didn't mean for the above post to have reddit spacing but i was typing it on my phone while i took a dump

I assure you, it's better than the wall of text in post 51.

 

[Funposter]

didn't mean for the above post to have reddit spacing but i was typing it on my phone while i took a dump

I assure you, it's better than the wall of text in post 51.

i think this 1440p monitor gives me a warped perspective on how long a paragraph actually is cause yeah that was like half an a4 page

 

[Reinhardt]

Just make both "sword mastery" and "ancient dragon-shaped dildo knowledge(for quest purpose, of course!)" skills and use same skill points to level them, so you are forced to chose combat specialization or specific quest options for your party. Right now in rpg games you almost always can just make full retard super soldiers with stats and talents, who also godlike-tier in 2-3 other things using skill points.
It could help if swords are not the only weapons in the game and ancient dildo knowledge is not used once in the last dungeon to get another sword reward.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Actually a pretty thoughtful OP.

Vault Dweller How is Colony Ship approaching this?

I don't really see it as a problem that needs solving. From day one a party was a group of specialists (fighter, mage, rogue). Want to be able to pick locks and steal shit? Get a rogue but your rogue won't be as good at fighting as a pure fighter, etc. A trade-off is always the best way to handle such things.

does it mean that you will be able to gather such party that every check out of combat will be doable?

Hypothetically speaking and excluding content requiring certain choices or party members, yes, although such party will be very weak in combat and won't be able to handle tough fights and access content such fights unlock.

with you dropping this like that it sounds like a challenge, for example create skill monkey and get muscle to tackle important encounters. Or... will it be possible to change your party and get muscle just for hard encounters?

Get muscle where?

 

[Viata]

Now I want a party based RPG where the dev says every class is useful, while in fact a good bunch of them is quite useless middle to end game and you are fucked if you select them(more so if you party is composed of those useless classes). Same for skills.

Most if not all party based RPGs do that dude... All of them contain some OP and some UP/borderline useless classes no one ever picks unless he wants more challenge...

Really? I guess I'm too used to the most generic party to even notice that.

 

[LordofSyn]

I recommend trying Heroes of Steel and Star Traders Frontiers. The Trese Brothers have a very interesting format for their RPGs and continue to push the limits with their very small and tight budgets.
Those two games, specifically, have many opportunities to use non-combat skills for checks. HoS is a fantasy medieval setting with only 4 characters in your party, but you have many different build options for all 8 possible characters. Star Traders Frontiers is a space RPG. While the only Character you can "manipulate" at the start is the Captain, you will also have way more Officers and Crew on your ship. In fact, your "party" can consist of 30+ personnel on your ship. You will have many, many ways to play and use non-combat skills as there are checks everywhere.

I recommend them as they have given me hope against the larger companies that seemingly have lost their way in crpgs. And this is coming from a man who has been playing ttrpgs and crpgs for 40 years.

Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk

 

[Incendax]

Kingmaker definitely has a variety of skill check styles, including ones that can only be made by your PC, and some that require 2-4 checks to be made by a single character. Luckily, those situations are not so common that your entire game will be screwed over by not having dedicated skill monkeys.

I would say only Perception and Persuasion make you miss HUGE chunks of the game.

 

[EldarEldrad]

"Party-based RPG's shoudn't have not-combat skills" - this statement really looks like decline. Why you think games should be dumbed down purposely? Isn't greater quantity of options improve diversity between different ways to play?
Of course, there are games where it is not true due to bad design or lack of time to implement something appropriately, but hey, it's just selection bias. Your imperative is so global, so it should be criticized globally too.

 

[V_K]

I can't shake the feeling that the whole discussion in this thread just stems from people having two distinct concepts of non-combat skills. The OP seems to be coming from PoE or DnD 3ed idea of non-combat skills - that exist completely separately and independently from combat skills. If that's the case, it's hard not to agree with him - done that way, non-combat skills are very much pointless. But it's not what happens in most systems, where combat and non-combat skills are bought from the same skillpoint pool, so whatever you spend on Disarm Traps you won't spend on Swords. So you have what VD is talking about regarding the Colony Ship - in such a system, you can in theory have a party that covers all non-combat skills, but such a party would suck balls in combat. Then the choice of what to prioritize becomes not so trivial.

 

[a Goat]

"Party-based RPG's shoudn't have not-combat skills" - this statement really looks like decline. Why you think games should be dumbed down purposely? Isn't greater quantity of options improve diversity between different ways to play?
Of course, there are games where it is not true due to bad design or lack of time to implement something appropriately, but hey, it's just selection bias. Your imperative is so global, so it should be criticized globally too.

You are a retard.

What's a better option. Optimizing skill checks made redundant by proper party composition or spending the same manhours on optimizing combat encounters(which can't be made redundant in the same way)? Time is a resource and is as limited as everything else if you're a gamedev.

 

[King Crispy]

Just to put this all into perspective: I spent over two hours yesterday shitposting with sheep on Discord about his idea to set up a stream channel in which he poorly builds cheap plastic military models then takes them and shoots them with an air pellet pistol.

 

[Reinhardt]

Which skill he knows better - building or shooting?

 

[EldarEldrad]

Optimizing skill checks made redundant by proper party composition or spending the same manhours on optimizing combat encounters(which can't be made redundant in the same way)?

You are THE retard.

You ask purposely retarded question which has obvious answer - but only because question is purposely retarded. Try reformulate it as "What is better - optimize combat encounter or non-combat encounter?"

 

[Dorateen]

"Party-based RPG's shoudn't have not-combat skills" - this statement really looks like decline.

Yes. Any elimination of game mechanics is streamlining and an attempt to diminish the hobby, regardless of the motivation or as a proposed solution to imaginary problems, and ought to be called out as such.

 

[Lhynn]

Sheep shouldn't be allowed to post in grpg. Keep his retardation in politics and general gaming.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Vault Dweller]

Actually a pretty thoughtful OP.

Vault Dweller How is Colony Ship approaching this?

I don't really see it as a problem that needs solving. From day one a party was a group of specialists (fighter, mage, rogue). Want to be able to pick locks and steal shit? Get a rogue but your rogue won't be as good at fighting as a pure fighter, etc. A trade-off is always the best way to handle such things.

does it mean that you will be able to gather such party that every check out of combat will be doable?

Hypothetically speaking and excluding content requiring certain choices or party members, yes, although such party will be very weak in combat and won't be able to handle tough fights and access content such fights unlock.

with you dropping this like that it sounds like a challenge, for example create skill monkey and get muscle to tackle important encounters. Or... will it be possible to change your party and get muscle just for hard encounters?

Get muscle where?

as in companions. I assumed that in your game there will be more companions than party slots and you will be able to make adjustments. With some of them being more combat oriented then others, hence muscle

Since it's not a Bioware game, the potential companions won't level up in your absence for your convenience, so any muscle you aren't actively using will "atrophy" in no time. Same goes for non-combat skills, of course.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Lhynn]

Since it's not a Bioware game, the potential companions won't level up in your absence for your convenience, so any muscle you aren't actively using will "atrophy" in no time. Same goes for non-combat skills, of course.

Wont people just stick to characters they already leveled then?

 

[a Goat]

Wont people just stick to characters they already leveled then?

They will but I agree with that kind of decision as it at least attempts at negating that problem.