Chess

[abnaxus]

 

[Burning Bridges]

Everyone who watched Carlsen play speed chess in the last couple of years and saw him destroy, not just defeat but utterly destroy everybody else, knew that Caruanas chances to win the tiebreak were close to zero.

I hadn't known he was that good but yes, he demonstrated that.

Still strange that Caruana of all people seemed to think he had a chance though.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

So, Kramnik calls it quits, eh? Serious or just butthurt?
I remember many years ago Invanchuk suffered a terrible loss against a 14yo no-name kid (Wesley So) and went ballistic after the game announcing his retirement, but after a couple days he cooled off and continued to play to this day.
So yeah, Kramnik had a shit tournament but he still has a lot of good games left in him, right?

 

[Minttunator]

I imagine after being a top 10 player for so long and achieving pretty much everything that you can in chess it's hard to stay motivated, even when your level of play is still good. Even Carlsen talked about losing motivation recently and he's a lot younger.

 

[abnaxus]

A Giri-Carlsen match in the future would be hilarious.

Ding Liren has a higher chance of qualifying but he's no threat to Carlsen.

 

[coldcrow]

To be fair, Caruana had excelllent chances to win the WC. While Carlsen missed his chance in the opening round, Caruana had several very promising positions.
In the Kramnik case there is to be said that he has suffered from Arthritis for a long time. He either has to suffer excrutiating pain or has to take quite strong pain killers which obv. isn't ideal when you have to play high-level chess.

 

[Country_Gravy]

To be fair, Caruana had excelllent chances to win the WC. While Carlsen missed his chance in the opening round, Caruana had several very promising positions.
In the Kramnik case there is to be said that he has suffered from Arthritis for a long time. He either has to suffer excrutiating pain or has to take quite strong pain killers which obv. isn't ideal when you have to play high-level chess.

But is ideal in almost every other aspect of life.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

So... Magnus Carlsen, eh?
Will he reach 2900?

 

[coldcrow]

He is just too good. How good becomes even more apparent, if you watch his banterblitz games at chess24. Specifically I mean how fast he correctly assesses positions. Where other top-gms have to think for a while, he just knows.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Is Carlsen just so good or are grandmasters too weak?

Imo chess started to decay since the time Fischer stopped playing. What had been a great gentlemen sport and then a great propaganda instrument for the Soviet Union became the ultimate test to memorize moves. The greatest talent the sport has ever seen went insane because he realized the game sucks. In 1975 he tried to challenge the rigidity of the game, succeeded and then never played another competiton because even he had exceeded his limits.

Chess finally died when Kasparov lost against Deep Blue, or rather against the the team that made Deep Bue.

I still watch chess because it's helpful to improve my own play but compared to Carlsen I completely suck. But what have I seen? I see 2 grandmasters agree on a draw or resign. I also see other grandmasters who comment what they think has been a good or bad move. But they are not sure because they need to wait until they can check it with a computer.

Chess is too old and too well known.

There is nothing wrong with the current talents and they are very good, but don't represent the pinnacle of human brains either. Most people realize Chess sucks at this level and quit. The guys who remain are just the most stubborn ones.

 

[Sukhāvatī]

Chess is too old and too well known.

There is nothing wrong with the current talents and they are very good, but don't represent the pinnacle of human brains either. Most people realize Chess sucks at this level and quit. The guys who remain are just the most stubborn ones.

Western high level Go games when.

 

[coldcrow]

Is Carlsen just so good or are grandmasters too weak?

Imo chess started to decay since the time Fischer stopped playing. What had been a great gentlemen sport and then a great propaganda instrument for the Soviet Union became the ultimate test to memorize moves. The greatest talent the sport has ever seen went insane because he realized the game sucks. In 1975 he tried to challenge the rigidity of the game, succeeded and then never played another competiton because even he had exceeded his limits.

Chess finally died when Kasparov lost against Deep Blue, or rather against the the team that made Deep Bue.

I still watch chess because it's helpful to improve my own play but compared to Carlsen I completely suck. But what have I seen? I see 2 grandmasters agree on a draw or resign. I also see other grandmasters who comment what they think has been a good or bad move. But they are not sure because they need to wait until they can check it with a computer.

Chess is too old and too well known.

There is nothing wrong with the current talents and they are very good, but don't represent the pinnacle of human brains either. Most people realize Chess sucks at this level and quit. The guys who remain are just the most stubborn ones.

This is wrong on some accounts. Actual difficulties qualifying a "greatest talent" aside, just compare Fischer's games with say, MC's. You will notice that MC plays far more accurate. Why he broke down exactly, we will never know.
Computers and databases bring a new dimension to chess, but not always a positive one.
GMs do know often, but chess is a concrete game and to be sure you need to calculate, which you simply can't in a few seconds. I do think some of the top 20-30 have overstayed their welcome and shouldn't be invited to competitions as often as they are.
Despite all engine-backed analyses, MC simply wins, because he is more accurate and knows what to do in many positions. Kasparov had a similar accuracy in his prime, but his true weapon was his extensive opening preparation, which was new for the time.

 

[Burning Bridges]

What I meant is not that MC is not a great chess player, but he and his opposition strikes me as methodical and listless. The whole game strikes me as methodical and listless. When you play against a normal player, who makes mistakes, it is still a great game once in a while, but on the grandmaster level it is a superhuman efforts to make no mistakes. Therefore my suspicion that brilliant minds will simply look for other fields and this is why this is so stale lately.

I mentioned Fischer because he came from outside the established chess elite and somehow managed to break the automatism. But immediately after he reached the pinnacle he did not play Chess anymore, and tried to establish new rules, I think this does not happen by accident. He wanted to "play" chess. And he could have taken on Karpov but realized it meant taking on endless memorization, politics etc and it was just too much for him.

Snooker is also like that, although it is a skill based game. The superhuman error quotes and preparation simply kills the fun. Ronnie O'Sullivan wrote a great book how he hates the game and just goes on because he is the greatest talent ever, because there is nothing else he can do, and how he had the greatest Snooker moments in private sessions with Jimmy White when they were both drunk and scored century breaks left and right.

 

[and 8 others]

He is just too good. How good becomes even more apparent, if you watch his banterblitz games at chess24. Specifically I mean how fast he correctly assesses positions. Where other top-gms have to think for a while, he just knows.

I find both his intuition and calculation speed in those banterblitz games to be fascinating. In classical games MC often ends up with an enormous time advantage as a consequence of those traits.

In a similar vein I was always amazed by Peter Leko, who seems to share that instinctive intuition of the best move. Hearing his live commentary of top level games is a joy.

 

[abnaxus]

Remember the times when Karpov was "too good" and then Kasparov was "too good". The ride eventually ends for everyone.

 

[abnaxus]

I watched a couple of Carlsen banter blitzes and they're entertaining but Svidler's are still most instructive.

 

[coldcrow]

MC and Nepo just palyed one of the best rapid games ever. I beseech you to look it up. Truly worldclass niveau from both.

 

[abnaxus]

Abidjan, really?

 

[Grimlorn]

Chess is too old and too well known.

There is nothing wrong with the current talents and they are very good, but don't represent the pinnacle of human brains either. Most people realize Chess sucks at this level and quit. The guys who remain are just the most stubborn ones.

Western high level Go games when.

That's not going to happen because the computer can beat the best human players now. And ever since they were beaten, they've started to play in a very strange way in the opening. They basically just invade at the 3-3 all the time which use to be frowned on, and is kind of a pussy way to play, but now that the computer has done it and thinks it's best all the pros do it. I kind of suspected Go would end up this way eventually once they've perfected play, but I guess I thought I'd never live to see it.

 

[abnaxus]

Kasparov and Kramnik played matches against the best computers of their time. Can you imagine Carlsen playing Alphazero and get creamed 12-0.

 

[whydoibother]

Remember Kramnik vs Topalov, when he made 50 trips to the toilet each game, and made his game winning move decisions in the toilet? The only place without video surveillance?
Just saying, maybe he didn't only play against the best computers of his day, maybe he formed a dark alliance.

 

[Burning Bridges]

There are many reasons why someone goes to toilet 50 times, maybe he was just nervous or had bad diarrhea. In that case a single risky fart could have ruined his career.

 

[Country_Gravy]

Is shitting yourself at the table an automatic DQ?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Remember Kramnik vs Topalov, when he made 50 trips to the toilet each game, and made his game winning move decisions in the toilet? The only place without video surveillance?
Just saying, maybe he didn't only play against the best computers of his day, maybe he formed a dark alliance.

Yeah yeah, what a load of bull. I doubt he went on the toilet 50 times per game, and seeing his gameplay I doubt there could have been a comp involved. Round 2 is a good example. Topalov goes for the throat mercilessly, Kramnik collapses (lul computer assistance wtf?) and then Topalov spoils it all with 32 Qg6 instead of Rxg4->Qc7 next move when black can resign. Clearly, Topalovs inability to convert a forced mate must have been caused by Kramnik cheating.

 

[abnaxus]