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Ye Olde D&D Alignment System

NatureOfMan

Educated
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Jan 27, 2019
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77
I like it as an idea and a template for memes but I am not a big fan of it as an RPG system. Still it's pretty iconic and one of the most recognisable things from DnD so I doubt you could just delete it.
 

Shadenuat

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"People instinctive grasp" on morality is often terrible, fallible and biased towards modernism. P:K proved it excellently where people couldn't roleplay LG paladins because they would consistently pick chaotic or neutral options and refused to pick lawful options; refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.

In some way I think alignments became a bible of D&D. Some people think it's trash and fairytales, others think it does its job, and there will always, always be war.

I am completely fine with alignments as a tool for a D&D or D&D inspired game, and I believe they brought some great extra to D&D cosmology like Planescape.

Practically all issues with alignment would be solved by people not being retarded.
Or that, also kinda true.

Gary Gygax said:

When players began to announce their character’s alignment to other participants I shuddered. I suggested that such information was not for broadcast, that the PCs might not actually think of themselves as categorized thus, and the alignment categories were meant more to guide the player in playing his character in the game.

I followed similar principle. If there ever was an issue, it would be between me (DM) and player + alignment shifts were never an issue for me + stuff was secret.

Detect alignment spell can go get fucked tho, and was always homeruled for planar beings/fey etc. only. Then again, whole Divination school is fuckDMlol stuff.
 
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S.torch

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refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.

How someone can roleplay has a good character and not punishing the evil?
 
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CappenVarra

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three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three - four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three; five is right out. so:

- the zeroth rule of alignment is: you don't talk about alignment
- the first rule of alignment is: most characters are Neutral in the grand scheme of things
- the second rule of alignment is: Clerics, Paladins, gods... are aligned with Order
- the third rule of alignment is: Magic Users, elves, demons... are aligned with Chaos

having counted to three, let us conclude: blood and souls for my lord Arioch!
 

DraQ

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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
"People instinctive grasp" on morality is often terrible, fallible and biased towards modernism. P:K proved it excellently where people couldn't roleplay LG paladins because they would consistently pick chaotic or neutral options and refused to pick lawful options; refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.
It doesn't matter. No formal system that doesn't require intensive computations will ever perform better.
And no formal system is actually needed either.

3d shapes?
You fool! Morality on no fewer dimensions than four.
Pff. Realfags. Quaternions or bust.
:outrage:
 

Mangoose

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
Practically all issues with alignment would be solved by people not being retarded.
Since not being retarded includes not using alignment system in the first place - I can't help but agree.
Alignment is retarded but it's okay to have Owlbears, Elves, wizards, sorcerers, Orcs, Succubi, and Kobolds.

The issue is treating a fantasy tabletop RPG as real life. Getting mad at a piece of fiction for not being realistic because you're an idiot who did not buy from the non-fiction section instead. With a story and setting determined by a GM, who is a human being, and human beings don't have the ability to look into peoples' minds so alignment obviously was noted to be dumb in the first place. Actually, how come people can create characters? The most realistic manner of creating a character is to roll dice because none of us were born into reality with our personal choice of genes, location, etc.

I assume that you are posting on a gaming forum due to one or some of the following. Escapism. Wanting good gameplay. To reminisce about a Codex-loved RPG so you can get brofists. Because "brofists" are clearly more realistic than "alignment." (Or troll about a Hivemind-loved RPG.)

The reality is that alignment or any mechanic is fine as long as it has good gameplay and is consistent with the game. In other words, an "alignment" system is only an issue if it affects nothing in the game. When there is no Choice & Consequence involved.

What a non-retard would ask: Does X mechanic beneficial to a product that is intended to be enjoyable and balanced gameplay?

See, the only time that realism truly matters in a game is when it is intentionally necessary to be realistic. Aka, a sim game (http://simhq.com/forum/ if you're interested).

Before you say, "I want a sim RPG!," I'll reply by questioning how the hell do you simulate something that's not real?

Sorry for bringing some real reality to your fantasy reality.
 

Mangoose

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Besides, we've all known a solution to alignment "issues." General reputation, reputation within factions, etc.

Why? Because you can't quantify your own self and intentions. However, reputation - how others view judge you - would be a degree more "realistic." But the real reason for the existence of such a system is to obviously tie it to the gameplay, to make you think about your decisions. Decisions within the game, that is, not decisions in real life.

"Real-ness" has little correlation with games unless, again, you want a sim.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The olde alignment wystem was good because it gave the storyteller a point of reference. People knew who King Arthur - lawful good - was as a Paladin, and if he fell they could categorise which evil alignment he fell into without the writer going into POE levels of exposition/description/bullshit on why. So it gave the third dimesion to characters that shitlords are going on about because the players already had the concept with them in the alignment title - the genius part is that I think Hillary Clinton is chaotic evil and Trump is neutral good, and some retard disagree with me. Ok. But in the game the alignment is only part of who the character is; the other part is how they slot into the world, and it isn't subjective. So Hillary Clinton stealing all the charity money from Haiti is always a evil-aligned action and Trump getting black unemployment to the lowest it's been in USA history is always good. After that it's down to the writers, not the players.
 

Cael

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refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.

How can someone can roleplay has a good character and not punishing the evil?
Ask the sjws. They think criminals should not be punished but those who actually work for a living and pay taxes and gathered wealth should be punished.

For the record, I believe Gygax is correct. The alignment system is good. It is the interpretation of the system that is fucked up because the complainers and haters inevitably view it through the post-modern lens (i.e., fucking millenials). When you start viewing the alignment system through the eyes of the idealised Christian Knight and his ethics, you start getting what the alignment system is about.
 

Lurker47

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The only problem I have is that they're sort of ill-defined. Good and Evil are so abstract that most people's interpretations seem stupidly simple. A Lawful character could be "following a principle of liberty" or whatever which is basically Chaotic. As a system for approximating what a character is at their core, it seems really flawed.
 

Elex

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Oct 17, 2017
Messages
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"People instinctive grasp" on morality is often terrible, fallible and biased towards modernism. P:K proved it excellently where people couldn't roleplay LG paladins because they would consistently pick chaotic or neutral options and refused to pick lawful options; refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.

In some way I think alignments became a bible of D&D. Some people think it's trash and fairytales, others think it does its job, and there will always, always be war.

I am completely fine with alignments as a tool for a D&D or D&D inspired game, and I believe they brought some great extra to D&D cosmology like Planescape.

Practically all issues with alignment would be solved by people not being retarded.
Or that, also kinda true.

Gary Gygax said:

When players began to announce their character’s alignment to other participants I shuddered. I suggested that such information was not for broadcast, that the PCs might not actually think of themselves as categorized thus, and the alignment categories were meant more to guide the player in playing his character in the game.

I followed similar principle. If there ever was an issue, it would be between me (DM) and player + alignment shifts were never an issue for me + stuff was secret.

Detect alignment spell can go get fucked tho, and was always homeruled for planar beings/fey etc. only. Then again, whole Divination school is fuckDMlol stuff.
this.
people are dumb and can't understand aligment. The worst people is the one that don't understand neutral.
 

Cael

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The only problem I have is that they're sort of ill-defined. Good and Evil are so abstract that most people's interpretations seem stupidly simple. A Lawful character could be "following a principle of liberty" or whatever which is basically Chaotic. As a system for approximating what a character is at their core, it seems really flawed.
They are undefined to people who don't know it but impose their own ideas on it. As Gygax himself said: It is based on the ideal Christian Knight outlook.

Lawful is telling the truth, following your oath, obeying the rules, living with honour, doing your duty. Not all the time, but certainly most of the time.
Good is being compassionate, selfless, altruistic.

Liberty is a Chaotic principle because being dutiful means that your own personal liberty is already compromised. You basically put your word, your honour, your duty and your oath over and above your own liberty to do what you like.

The problem is that the post-modern fucktard (a.k.a., millenial shit) think that truth is optional, honour and duty are archaic nonsense and violating your word/oath is being "smart". They then try to impose their shit on the alignment system, take it up to 11 and then cry foul when the system falls apart.
 

Raghar

Arcane
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Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,689
So let's go to proper grittiness.
That table is about cosmological principles. Cosmological principles are not the same as simple behavior.
Just because on one axis is word evil, it doesn't mean they are criminals.
In fact majority of people are unaligned, greedy, selfish people. People who don't have any several restrictions on their behavior. They might hear from theirs parents that murdering theirs children for profit is amoral. (Which is why gypsies were murdering children of non gypsies for profit.)

Evil on the other hand might rise few bodies as undead because they would be sad. Then theirs children would meet them when they are at dinner, because it's custom to be at 5 o clock at dinner even when they don't need to eat anymore, and they warn theirs children about some mishaps in theirs behavior... And their children knows they would care about theirs behavior for eternity, they can't run, nor hide. And their parents care about them, thus they would learn how to rise them as undead in case they'd die. On the positive side, shock from that fact allows them to accept facts better.

For PnP roleplaying purposes, alignment is more important for ability to be able to even cooperate with powerful sword, than for normal situations. Imagine a powerful sword that has lawful neutral alignment and personality. Swords like that typically dream and when they dream, they share theirs dreams with theirs wielders. Now imagine shared dream where you are siting at the table correcting accounting numbers, pages and pages of numbers, and sometimes because he likes the user and want to make him happy, it shows even numbers people who are not doing accounting would rather to put bullet trough theirs head that trying to analyze them, and he does that every night. You can imagine what that can do with some people.

Now of course the whole stuff spiced up by ability to slice free from any container they put it in and threw to bottom of the sea, and mind controlling a fish that would throw sword on beach. And burying sword in concrete with expectation of sword causing falling the structure and screwing up people, can end by having tip of the sword in your butt somehow permeating through chair, and nobody seen it before you sat, saying "hi long time no see, it was boring in that concrete, there it's more interesting". Of course, artifacts are typically not fully functional intelligent beings, but restrictions in theirs behavior are lifted in certain situations. Sometimes permanently.

Strength of abilities manifested by artifacts swords with alignment is typically limited by how strongly is theirs user aligned to these abstract cosmological principles.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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Jun 16, 2007
Messages
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Alignment systems are pointless.

A better gauge for how the player is viewed should be a Reputation system / Faction rating system. New vegas mostly did this correct.

"People instinctive grasp" on morality is often terrible, fallible and biased towards modernism. P:K proved it excellently where people couldn't roleplay LG paladins because they would consistently pick chaotic or neutral options and refused to pick lawful options; refusing to punish criminals and evil beings, even slavers and such, consistently going for releasing and saving everyone and expecting reward for being good bois.

Maintaining a specific code to remain as a Paladins could still be done in a game with a Reputation/Alignment system: if you claim to be a paragon of justice and fail to maintain that code within the Order of the Paladins 9(or example), you would lose your reputation with that group and then you'd become a fallen paladin.

This system allows more granular morality without having a strict Good/Neutral/Evil alignment system.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

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oGVHXGx.png
 

Glop_dweller

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Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,167
Utter garbage. Alignment system is a perfect illustration of what's wrong with D&D, ... it makes absolutely no sense to punish players for acting not according to their chosen alignment.
D&D alignment is high-level abstraction for high-level abstractions such as "Chaos" or "Evil" which make it unapplicable to any persona.
While I am not fond of games telling you how you think blah blah player rights etc...
I see it as a crude attempt to force players to role-play.
That is precisely what it is for. One should interpret it as the character's scope of ethical options; it is exactly to tell you [the player] how the PC is free to behave, and what behavior they cannot force themselves to live with. It is a roleplaying aid; it clarifies the player's options through the lens of the PC—to see the situation from the PC's perspective... and to know (in their heart) that certain acts are unthinkable for them.

(...And this is open ended, for the unthinkable could mean —not robbing a noble dandy dressed in five pounds of silk and gold; or it could mean to not defend them from their own folly at walking lost down a back alley dressed in such attire... Or it could mean not [passing up the chance] offering to protect them for a fee, and deciding later whether it was worth it; possibly to rob them one's self.)

The Chart in the OP is very apt. Just think about some of those characters in the above situation I describe, and ask yourself how they would decide to behave if they saw the person wandering the street with a lost/puzzled and unsure attitude.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Imagine a powerful sword that has lawful neutral alignment and personality. Swords like that typically dream and when they dream, they share theirs dreams with theirs wielders. Now imagine shared dream where you are siting at the table correcting accounting numbers, pages and pages of numbers, and sometimes because he likes the user and want to make him happy, it shows even numbers people who are not doing accounting would rather to put bullet trough theirs head that trying to analyze them, and he does that every night. You can imagine what that can do with some people
Mustawd

Pretty much.
 

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