Crispy™ Is Kinkmaker gud?

[Kyl Von Kull]

The first half of Kingmaker (which by itself is longer than many other CRPGs) is genuinely great. The quality gradually deteriorates over the second half, but you're still left with a very good game. It totally sucked me in. Would recommend to anyone who likes the classics. By far the best CRPG to come out of kickstarter.

Failure to resolve a quest before its deadline should result in consequence that you live with for the rest of the game. Game over for anything other than full party wipe is bad RPG design in my book. If failing a quest leads to instant game over, then you just reload and do it again. Where's the roleplaying in that?

This is actually how most of the main quests in Kingmaker are structured. Aside from the first quest (kill the stag lord within 90 days and claim his land as your barony--a very, very generous time limit), your kingdom typically gets hit with a series of escalating consequences the longer you wait to accomplish something important.

The thing is, Kingmaker also has a kingdom management element. You're playing as a territorial ruler, so you get a game over if you lose your kingdom. Again, this rarely happens instantly. You have to let things fall apart over a period of time and then your kingdom collapses.

The real issue always goes down to the execution of those points, you notice people dont complain about Fallout deadlines.

Yes, they do. Interplay got so much pushback that they had to extend the initial time limit in a patch and also pushed out the mutant invasion timer so far that it became irrelevant. People still complain about the timer, just not here.

No, the first problem is choices you have to make without the consequence being apparent ... let me give you a example, when you get a Barony you have to take a Advisor and there are 3 choices with one being from your sponsor, another from her opponent Sortova and then there is a third one. Now you can assume taking one is taking a side with either the Swordlords or Brevoy with the 3rd being neutral but that would be wrong, VERY WRONG.

I disagree. If you know what the consequences of a major decision will be, it takes all the fun out of the decision-making process. It seems like your real complaint is that Kingmaker doesn't always give you many clues. But going with your example, there were lots of clues that going with the neutral advisor was a very bad choice.

Spoiler

Lander comes across as a super shady character when you're meeting the three potential advisors at the feast. People get screwed because they focus too much on the policy question, when really they're making a personnel decision.

Encumbrance is a problem since you are kinda forced back to sell things or store then, you can get around it since you can disable it working on the World Map but this is they having half a system, in Pathfinder there are mounts but since Kingmaker lacks mounts and just have pets ... you can see the problem, traveling weight in Pathfinder was designed around players can just store then on a mount but as they dont exist in Kingmaker since no mounted combat ... maybe its generous but still ... it shows problems on design with intensive combat encounters.

Strongly disagree. Kingmaker is one of the few RTwP CRPGs where encumbrance (and resting, which is related) actually serve a purpose, because there are time limits so you have to use your brain outside of combat for once. Between encumbrance and the need to carry rations to rest in dungeons/rest quickly outside, you have to think about what to bring with you when you set out and what loot to pick up. If you don't want to be forced back to sell everything, don't pick up so much trash.

 

[cr0mag]

Kangmaker is a great historical rpg about the blacks retaking their ancestral birthright.

Did you build the pyramid and unlock the secret ending where you get beamed into space?

 

[grom]

Meanwhile you have like a year to solve basically all of these, which is a shitload of time unless you just dick around in the kingdom management skipping days like a retard.
...
"I wanna play the role of a king who lets his kingdom get overrun by beasts and undead but it still exists somehow" isn't good roleplaying. It's just idiocy

Whether or not the player is a retard for failing is totally beside the point. My point was that failing and dealing with the consequences is more interesting (and therefore better) than a game over screen. For example, your kingdom is overrun by beasts, so now you must flee into exile and build a new army. Or you're enslaved by the new overlords and must work to bring them down from within. I don't know.

edit: Imagine you are playing a PnP RPG and your DM says, "The battle is lost, your foes have overtaken the keep. You don't necessarily die, but we can no longer continue to play this campaign."

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Meanwhile you have like a year to solve basically all of these, which is a shitload of time unless you just dick around in the kingdom management skipping days like a retard.
...
"I wanna play the role of a king who lets his kingdom get overrun by beasts and undead but it still exists somehow" isn't good roleplaying. It's just idiocy

Whether or not the player is a retard for failing is totally beside the point. My point was that failing and dealing with the consequences is more interesting (and therefore better) than a game over screen. For example, your kingdom is overrun by beasts, so now you must flee into exile and build a new army. Or you're enslaved by the new overlords and must work to bring them down from within. I don't know.

What you're describing is totally unfeasible. You want them to build a massive amount of new content for the main quests (requiring a different failure state for each part of the main quest) in an already huge game that will only be seen by single digit IQ players who can't understand things like the fact that an increasingly-large swarm of magical beasts attacking your kingdom and killing everyone they see is a thing you really need to deal with in a somewhat timely fashion. Sure, more content is always nice, but you have to draw the line somewhere. In fact, Owlcat was arguably already too generous in not cutting content, seeing how buggy the release was.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Kingmaker is an RPG Control Freak's nightmare. There are timed quests, your kingdom can crumble, you have to decide whether you want to carry heavier loot or camping rations. I love it. Best RTWP CRPG since Baldur's Gate 1. It really nails both the adventure aspects as well as the kingdom management half of the game as you run your barony as best you see fit. Be prepared that it's half adventuring and half kingdom simulation, or maybe 60/40. Great characters, interesting quests and locations, fun gameplay, good writing and just an overall great game to come out of the Kickstarter Era.

 

[grom]

What you're describing is totally unfeasible. You want them to build a massive amount of new content for the main quests (requiring a different failure state for each part of the main quest) in an already huge game that will only be seen by single digit IQ players who can't understand things like the fact that an increasingly-large swarm of magical beasts attacking your kingdom and killing everyone they see is a thing you really need to deal with in a somewhat timely fashion. Sure, more content is always nice, but you have to draw the line somewhere. In fact, Owlcat was arguably already too generous in not cutting content, seeing how buggy the release was.

I'm not necessarily asking for endless content for every conceivable situation. I agree that that is a totally unrealistic expectation. Just asking for a more interesting solution than "game over".

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Sure, will an ending slide with "You suck balls as a King, its in ruin now. You are probably dead or live the rest of your life in shame" do?

Its practically game over anyway unless you want to go full retard like "but if I am GM i would continue the campaign" or some shit.

People in Codex bitch about CnC and niw that there are consequences of choosing being a retarded king in CRPG about being travel hobo-king the same people complain, fuck that.

Game is very playable in 1.2 up to Chapter 3 which I am now. I also waited a while because the launch was disastrous, but right now things are fine as far as Chapter 3.

It has the common problem most of these long arse rtwp crpgs, namely trash mobs.

Mages are weaker compared to BGs mages which make things less fun. I would put it somewhere between BG and PoE mages I guess?

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I'm not necessarily asking for endless content for every conceivable situation. I agree that that is a totally unrealistic expectation. Just asking for a more interesting solution than "game over".

I don't really mean every conceivable situation, I just mean that the state of the game in each of the quests that can lead to a game over is different enough that in each case they would have to create different content to cover the situation where the quest failed. And the most logical outcome in most of these quests is a game over - you've catastrophically fucked your kingdom over by not dealing with the situation and there's no reasonable way to fix it. I suppose I wouldn't mind some extra content in these situations, but a game over is far superior to the genre norm in such circumstances, as most games like to give you quests that are described as super urgent and yet there's no consequences for simply not doing them until you feel like it.

 

[grom]

Fair enough. By the way, I am not knocking Owlcat/Kingmaker for going the simpler "game over" route. One of my favourite games also gives you a game over screen if you fail a certain quest. I think perhaps "bad design" was a poor choice of words on my part.

 

[Haplo]

1.2 is completely functional and has no major bugs (just little ones). But you might as well wait for 1.3, since Kingdom Management needs a balance overhaul.

Well, you might save before tacking the boss of Act V. This encounters was... highly buggy for me yesterday.

 

[Haplo]

I agreed to most things, but... Aren't those points positives?

Encumbrance is a problem since you are kinda forced back to sell things or store then, you can get around it since you can disable it working on the World Map but this is they having half a system, in Pathfinder there are mounts but since Kingmaker lacks mounts and just have pets ... you can see the problem, traveling weight in Pathfinder was designed around players can just store then on a mount but as they dont exist in Kingmaker since no mounted combat ... maybe its generous but still ... it shows problems on design with intensive combat encounters.

Well, but if you do have animal companions... they have thousands of units of encumbrance allowance.
Plus there are bags of holding, a hat that offers 200 extra personal encumbrance (plus skill bonuses).

And there is no rule saying everyone in your party needs to be wimps. I've came out of the Pitax palace carrying like 30 full plates, plus triple that in arms and other stuff. If you don't build a party of wimps or don't try to solo, it mostly becomes a non-issue.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I agreed to most things, but... Aren't those points positives?

Encumbrance is a problem since you are kinda forced back to sell things or store then, you can get around it since you can disable it working on the World Map but this is they having half a system, in Pathfinder there are mounts but since Kingmaker lacks mounts and just have pets ... you can see the problem, traveling weight in Pathfinder was designed around players can just store then on a mount but as they dont exist in Kingmaker since no mounted combat ... maybe its generous but still ... it shows problems on design with intensive combat encounters.

Well, but if you do have animal companions... they have thousands of units of encumbrance allowance.
Plus there are bags of holding, a hat that offers 200 extra personal encumbrance (plus skill bonuses).

And there is no rule saying everyone in your party needs to be wimps. I've came out of the Pitax palace carrying like 30 full plates, plus triple that in arms and other stuff. If you don't build a party of wimps or don't try to solo, it mostly becomes a non-issue.

Who even walks around without bull’s strength on 2-3 party members? Anything less would be uncivilized.

 

[Jarpie]

The game is very generous with the time limits on quests, and even more generous with the game ending ones, and gives you ample warning about them, unless you are a fucking retard. For example, in the third chapter, they'll let you know that you have two months till your kingdom is destroyed. On another note, people bitches how games doesn't have C&C, and when the game provides that, then people cries that it has actual C&C, herp derp derp, I actually like that the "decision moments" aren't telegraphed, like in many other rpgs, it makes the game less predictable.

I just finished my playthrough last week, and I didn't encounter many hugely serious bugs, one of the alignment-based quests didn't appear because the event-card is bugged, by not giving the quest if you score triumph, I reported it so hopefully it'll get fixed.

 

[Incendax]

Well, you might save before tacking the boss of Act V. This encounters was... highly buggy for me yesterday.

I personally experienced a game ender there back in 1.0, so you have my empathy. But my 1.2 playthrough went through it without a hitch. What happened in yours?

 

[Incendax]

Are they going to address kingdom management in 1.3?

They are supposed to. What choices they make are uncertain though. My biggest issue with Kingdom Management was buildings that do almost nothing. Sure, I wish project timers were shorter and a certain advisor slot had more options, but at the end of the day? I was better off building almost nothing except Bulletin Boards + Alignment Building and saving all my BP for expansion, trade deals, events, and problems.

When the best option is building basically nothing, buildings need to be rebalanced.

 

[Tao]

You cant have a raven familiar and later a consul imp :S

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The first half of Kingmaker (which by itself is longer than many other CRPGs) is genuinely great. The quality gradually deteriorates over the second half, but you're still left with a very good game.

Think this is the best summary.

 

[pomenitul]

It's a mixed bag, but that's good enough in my book.

 

[Haplo]

Well, you might save before tacking the boss of Act V. This encounters was... highly buggy for me yesterday.

I personally experienced a game ender there back in 1.0, so you have my empathy. But my 1.2 playthrough went through it without a hitch. What happened in yours?

Well, first time the king disappeared and the Naga slided to the palace entry hall.
Couldn't find him anywhere. Would have thought he might have been dead, but there was no body and scrolling the log revealed he was healed and even cast 2 buffs afterwards.

Second time seemed better, the naga dimension doored him to the back, but still the dialog was pretty scarce. Third time he spoke a lot and stood his ground basically.

 

[Haplo]

The game is very generous with the time limits on quests, and even more generous with the game ending ones, and gives you ample warning about them, unless you are a fucking retard. For example, in the third chapter, they'll let you know that you have two months till your kingdom is destroyed. On another note, people bitches how games doesn't have C&C, and when the game provides that, then people cries that it has actual C&C, herp derp derp, I actually like that the "decision moments" aren't telegraphed, like in many other rpgs, it makes the game less predictable.

I just finished my playthrough last week, and I didn't encounter many hugely serious bugs, one of the alignment-based quests didn't appear because the event-card is bugged, by not giving the quest if you score triumph, I reported it so hopefully it'll get fixed.

Yeah a warning 2 months ahead, reminders every 2 weeks and every week once you're left with 1 month...

 

[Sykar]

Sure, will an ending slide with "You suck balls as a King, its in ruin now. You are probably dead or live the rest of your life in shame" do?

Its practically game over anyway unless you want to go full retard like "but if I am GM i would continue the campaign" or some shit.

People in Codex bitch about CnC and niw that there are consequences of choosing being a retarded king in CRPG about being travel hobo-king the same people complain, fuck that.

Game is very playable in 1.2 up to Chapter 3 which I am now. I also waited a while because the launch was disastrous, but right now things are fine as far as Chapter 3.

It has the common problem most of these long arse rtwp crpgs, namely trash mobs.

Mages are weaker compared to BGs mages which make things less fun. I would put it somewhere between BG and PoE mages I guess?

Agree with everything but the last sentence. I could try to elaborate but a video says more than a thousand words:



A sorcerer Illusionist build murderizing most things with Phantasmal Killer and Weird come late game and relying on evocation early game or when the enemy is immune. He is playing this build SOLO on Unfair coming mid game since mages are limited early on.
He has uploaded several videos where he shows how he solves certain high level encounters.

 

[fantadomat]

Gregz is correct about most of his points.
And yet, I still had quite a bit of fun.
Flawed but enjoyable describes pretty much all the old classics, so this feels right at home.

Isn't it more likely that you enjoyed it because there's barely anything out there?

It came a few months after dumpsterfire.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Its mixed bag I do like the first chapter where you are just adventurer and pathfinder changes to DnD system making other classes than mages fun to play again but the game is too long, has this whole kingdom management shit which should be clicking on the (animated) screen and instead is: I am on map murdering hobo the monsters and vilains so my subject can be save got message some shit happens and I need to be in capital ASAP... its LOOONG Loading Screen->Campaign map->Oh shit we were ambushed by squirels again SHEEEET Another LOOOOONG loading Screen->Back to campaign Map->Loading Screeen->We enter capital->Loading Screen we enter Throne ROOM another Loading Screen for cut-scene where you can click one or two options of dialogue and guess what Comrade? Da another LOADING SCREEEN! You could do the same using without making my toon physically traveling to my throne room and of course wasting half hour of my type as it was made in older game, use the book interface like in CHYOA section or make nice little kingdom management screen with your capital view and some advisors or using fracking runners or delegate more to your advisors but no you are forced to loose HOURS of your time to see your Capital which hardly changes and where most buildings have no role in plot or management whatsoever. Why? Did the Medieval Kings sit their asses in Capital whole time? Nope they campaigned in field and made circles around their domain hosting themselves on the nobles and subject. The Capital should be cut from game or made so you can skip it after maybe seeing it once. Stopped to Play the game when I realized I spend more time waiting for screens to load than playing, 6/10 it has fun part but turned to be too ambitious for its own sake.

 

[deama]

Sure, will an ending slide with "You suck balls as a King, its in ruin now. You are probably dead or live the rest of your life in shame" do?

Its practically game over anyway unless you want to go full retard like "but if I am GM i would continue the campaign" or some shit.

People in Codex bitch about CnC and niw that there are consequences of choosing being a retarded king in CRPG about being travel hobo-king the same people complain, fuck that.

Game is very playable in 1.2 up to Chapter 3 which I am now. I also waited a while because the launch was disastrous, but right now things are fine as far as Chapter 3.

It has the common problem most of these long arse rtwp crpgs, namely trash mobs.

Mages are weaker compared to BGs mages which make things less fun. I would put it somewhere between BG and PoE mages I guess?

Agree with everything but the last sentence. I could try to elaborate but a video says more than a thousand words:



A sorcerer Illusionist build murderizing most things with Phantasmal Killer and Weird come late game and relying on evocation early game or when the enemy is immune. He is playing this build SOLO on Unfair coming mid game since mages are limited early on.
He has uploaded several videos where he shows how he solves certain high level encounters.

How can he finish the game solo if there's one bit where you need a decent party to continue?

 

[ArchAngel]

The game is very generous with the time limits on quests, and even more generous with the game ending ones, and gives you ample warning about them, unless you are a fucking retard. For example, in the third chapter, they'll let you know that you have two months till your kingdom is destroyed. On another note, people bitches how games doesn't have C&C, and when the game provides that, then people cries that it has actual C&C, herp derp derp, I actually like that the "decision moments" aren't telegraphed, like in many other rpgs, it makes the game less predictable.

I just finished my playthrough last week, and I didn't encounter many hugely serious bugs, one of the alignment-based quests didn't appear because the event-card is bugged, by not giving the quest if you score triumph, I reported it so hopefully it'll get fixed.

I really like that when a side quest tells you that certain NPCs are waiting for your at certain place and you don't show up for 2 weeks they go away. This is how all games should have it. It takes 1 day to get there (without a teleport), it is even generous that they wait 2 weeks for you.