Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Blaine]

I did reply to you though.
The amount of fast travel checkpoints are necessary.
I told you, this game is so much harder, there is no other way. Like I can't even imagine dying as much as I do in Sekiro and having some of Bloodborne's longer walks (like the run to get to Gascoigne or the run to get to shadows of yharnam)
Sekiro is much harder than all the other souls I played. And I played BB through streaming services with the added latency. In BB I've only had two moments where I felt I got somewhat stuck, when I reached Gascoigne (after which most bosses felt really easy), and when I reached Ebrietas (I tried many times.. then abandoned and just killed the end boss when my subscription ran out. Didn't want to pay one more month just for one optional boss).
In Sekiro, it feels like every moment is a new moment to be stuck at and die a lot.
I'm going hollow.

Ah. I guess it got lost in all the alerts.

The most notable deleterious effect of ubiquitous fast travel nodes tends to be on the game's level design, so hearing that the difficulty justifies the amount of nodes, while informative, doesn't really address the whole picture. In short, DS1's levels (for the first half of the game or so, at least) were designed to be traversed without the use of fast travel, whereas DS3 in particular is designed around its ubiquitous fast travel nodes.

 

[Merlkir]

Is it possible the people who are having a very hard time are really used to the Soulsborne games playstyles? Wasn't there a similar situation after Bloodborne was released? (no shields etc.)

 

[Hobo Elf]

Despite the great amount of checkpoints, this sort of mechanic makes death extremely punishing and considering how easy it is to die in this game.. one point I didn't see raised is how the rising from a single death is utterly useless and just equal to having one more healing potion. Considering how much talk there was about the gimmick before the release of the game. The E3 trailer showed you getting a free buckstabbu on the drunkard :

But unless I missed something, this can't be done on mini-bosses or bosses at all. Only normal enemies didn't notice me rising from death. The thing has no strategic value and the game could exist without it and giving you one or two more potions at the start of the game and there'd be very little difference in practice. For such a core marketed gimmick.. it's kind of a flop.

This is an interesting point and not something I've seen brought up. From the limited interviews and videos that I did see leading up to Sekiro's release, they always did promise and show that while death is easy and plentiful, it wouldn't be the end and that you could even use death strategically as a tool vs your enemies. I mean it's still true, sort of, but you can only use it vs the easy enemies. Bosses will either just stand and wait for you to res/die, or they will engage you immediately when you hit the button. Or in the bull boss fights case he sometimes wouldn't even let me get up before killing me when I tried to res . So in the end it's a big nothing mechanic that fails to have any real purpose.

 

[Mr. Pink]

According to a reviewer whom I trust: "You can't walk ten fucking feet without finding another idol."

It's Dark Souls 3 bonfires everywhere syndrome all over again, not a good sign.

I saw that video and that particular example is rather unfair. The reason why there's two bonfires right next to each other is because they're just following the convention of having a bonfire in major boss rooms after you beat them even when it's not really nessessary. Same thing happens in every souls game (bonfire before O&S and after quelaag comes to mind).

There are a bit more bonfires because there are more bosses and unavoidable mini bosses, and because the level design has less opportunities to reuse the same bonfires. Also, being able to Spiderman from one side of the Castle to the other without ever touching the ground makes things seem closer than they are of you compare them to games where you have to run past a bunch of mobs and take elevators and ladders everywhere.

 

[Jasede]

That reviewer is full of bullshit, there's not really that many idols. Certainly far less than DS3, or it feels that way to me. Besides, it's not like you are having a better experience by having to run past 20 enemies vs. running past 3.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Owl is down. First try. What an awesome fight. Him and Lady Butterfly are probably the best, Genichiro being the hardest so far.
Those purple dudes, damn, class A bullshit, the hardest was the guy trying to avenge his master, the guy who wants you to kill rats. Vilehand fight was also pretty good, sprinting is amazing for hit and run tactics.
Damn, what a game.
For those who finished it already, how much more do I got left till the end?

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

According to a reviewer whom I trust: "You can't walk ten fucking feet without finding another idol."

It's Dark Souls 3 bonfires everywhere syndrome all over again, not a good sign.

I see a lot of ratings on this post, but no replies. I'm looking for confirmation or refutation here, not an argument.

People who don't understand why ubiquitous fast travel nodes were disastrous for the Souls franchise (or worse, didn't even notice that they'd become ubiquitous post-DS1) can't help me. I'll need answers from people with at least a few neurons to rub together.

I'll check back in a few weeks if no useful feedback appears in the immediate future.

locations are designed very differently than those in DS. Aside from some parts of Ashina Castle with generic landscape most of them are like a fucking Blightown or Valley of Defilement only this time in 60 fps and without any ladders. You have a grappling hook and you can traverse in almost any direction and this freedom of movement gives you that vibe of being lost. Even with "bonfires" every 5 minutes you constantly ask yourselves where to go or more likely can i get there somehow?

Game released 3 days ago, played it probably 10 hours a day, then says they hate it. It always just makes me a little confused how someone who hates a game could so obsessively play it. "Hate" being such a strong word as it is.

The only explanation for these people I can come up with is that video games are literally their life, not a rest from it. They will play them even if they hate them because what else is there?

Anyway, I fucked off the old hag for now and suffered through the crappy snake section. Short as it is I still died few times right at the end of it because I couldn't figure out where to go after poking its eye out. The branch I was supposed to grapple to sent me into abyss first couple times so I ended up running around like a retard looking for other places to go.
Beat the first real boss, finally, the dude with the horse. Only died like 10 times, FUCKING EASY MODE. Got nothing on the old cunt. But maybe she'll be more manageable now with attack upgrade.

Umh no, videogames are not "my life", but I need to start working again this week so I played as much as I could in order to try and finish the game. Judging people's habit and labeling them as no-lifer based on a post in which they don't praise the so damn praised From Software because of some dumb (in my opinion) decisions is rather stupid. When playing those games sadly I enter a loop in which the more I fail, the more I want to beat that damn section just to prove I can do it.
With "hate" I'm not gonna saying Sekiro is shit, because it's not. I love a lot of things From did here, but I can also recognize some cheap choices they made just to give people their superhard game, because from a gameplay design point some choices have not a real reason to exist, like enforcing a mini-boss fight with 10 minions you can't avoid fighting. Please show me a similar case in the whole Souls history, it doesn't make sense. Usually in the past if you got stuck in a boss you could just breeze throu an area to reach the boss and try again. Here in 90% of cases you can't. Yup, for mini-bosses you usually have the option to skip them entirely, not always, but often, but if you do so you can't upgrade your health, so there's no sense on doing that.

So yeah, when I say I hate Sekiro it means I hate the choices From Software did in order to keep promoting their games with stuff like "prepare to die". It's ok to die in those games, it's part of the game: learn from your mistakes, get better, win and proceed. In Sekiro I didn't find this element, the "you got good, your skill are better now". Because I can try to learn a boss pattern 20 times but in the end when I do it I feel just lucky, probably if I'd tried that fight again the moment after I completed it there would be a good chance I'd fail it again, even because the game has this bad design habit of throwing different kanji for unavoidable moves confusing the player, so if you can't recognize immediately the move the enemy is performing you may end up dodging instead of jumping and you will probably get a fuckton of damage from that. Sekiro has a good core, but sadly the negative points in my opinion surpass the positive ones here.

i am at the end and cant really remember any mini-boss with 10 minions. Maybe the second general in Ashina Outskirts? But at most they they have 4-5 of them ? At the beginning Juzou and his guards seems like a chore but even i incompetent as i am managed to stealth kill half of his crew, kite and kill the rest, lose the fat drunkard around the corners, land a deathblow and finish him together with samurai bro.

Spoiler

- Headless are 1v1
- Seven Spears you can avoid all his guards and Matsumoto has 4 weak ass samurai you can one shot with shurikens
- Ogre and Shinobi hunter have like 3-4 guys
- Long arm centipede #1 has 4 guys? #2 is 1v1
- Purple Ninja, Lone Shadow, Orin, Ashina Elite, Shcihimen Warrior, Okami are 1v1
- Snake Eyes #1 is 1v1 and #2 has 4 guys but you can fight him without alerting them
- Tokujiro has like a 4 monkeys and Shigekichi has couple shinobis but at that point you should rape them with sword/prosthetic skills

thats all i remember. I feel like the end game areas are kind of cheap with amount of trash mob enemies but on the other hand it is a fucking invasion in Ashina Castle. Also at that point in game you are death incarnated with ninjutsu shit, plenty of prosthetic tools and combat skills letting you one shot any normal enemies. I do agree that Fountainhead Palace is kind of shitty and cheap but those jumping ninjas are weak to shurikens and singing witches are killed with one hit.

Spoiler

Divine Dragon fight kind of makes up for that. I actually liked throwing lighting and parrying his big ass sword.

 

[Taurist]

Despite the great amount of checkpoints, this sort of mechanic makes death extremely punishing and considering how easy it is to die in this game.. one point I didn't see raised is how the rising from a single death is utterly useless and just equal to having one more healing potion. Considering how much talk there was about the gimmick before the release of the game. The E3 trailer showed you getting a free buckstabbu on the drunkard :

But unless I missed something, this can't be done on mini-bosses or bosses at all. Only normal enemies didn't notice me rising from death. The thing has no strategic value and the game could exist without it and giving you one or two more potions at the start of the game and there'd be very little difference in practice. For such a core marketed gimmick.. it's kind of a flop.

This is an interesting point and not something I've seen brought up. From the limited interviews and videos that I did see leading up to Sekiro's release, they always did promise and show that while death is easy and plentiful, it wouldn't be the end and that you could even use death strategically as a tool vs your enemies. I mean it's still true, sort of, but you can only use it vs the easy enemies. Bosses will either just stand and wait for you to res/die, or they will engage you immediately when you hit the button. Or in the bull boss fights case he sometimes wouldn't even let me get up before killing me when I tried to res . So in the end it's a big nothing mechanic that fails to have any real purpose.

The function seems to be to make it easier for you to "die". Same reason the bosses have been given a quantised health system. You die in 2 blows, or instantly if your pose is broken. It's more like Aku Aku in Crash bandicoot than anything.

According to a reviewer whom I trust: "You can't walk ten fucking feet without finding another idol."

It's Dark Souls 3 bonfires everywhere syndrome all over again, not a good sign.

Shrines are everywhere, but it feels a little differant than in Dark Souls 3. The areas are less like a 3d metroidvania as is is in Souls, and more like a linear action game. The shrines are placed at the start of the next Zone in the level.


The camera is the biggest enemy in this game. the Souls engine works with methodical combat 1v1. It just feels broken here. Its a good game, on the whole, but so fucking janky. 100% of my Madam Buttertfly deaths were due to the camera unlocking, or shifting to some spirit.

 

[Nathir]

Just got to the part where you fight 1vs2 against two purple ninjas in a small room... So cheap, makes me want to just stop playing.

 

[Silva]

How is the worldbuilding and overall ambience, bros? Are those engaging like in Soulsborne, or the fun here is purely the mechanical aspect?

 

[Lutte]

Ah. I guess it got lost in all the alerts.

The most notable deleterious effect of ubiquitous fast travel nodes tends to be on the game's level design, so hearing that the difficulty justifies the amount of nodes, while informative, doesn't really address the whole picture. In short, DS1's levels (for the first half of the game or so, at least) were designed to be traversed without the use of fast travel, whereas DS3 in particular is designed around its ubiquitous fast travel nodes.

The level design isn't quite DS1's "everything loops back" (IMHO, that never actually made sense and just made the world feel tiny as fuck.) but it's still a cut well above DS3. Despite the amount of fast travel nodes, there's shortcuts to unlock and alternate paths throughout the areas whenever it makes sense for them to be there. The game opens up earlier than DS3 too. Almost as soon as you enter the first real area to explore you're given something that will lead you to a completely difference area.. that crosses spacetime so to speak, and you're free to decide whether to continue in your original area or explore the new one.
You constantly find splits in paths that make you take decisions on where to go next. It's not linear.

They'd really have to water down the difficulty if they were to remove checkpoints because this game is one of the harshest mainstream game I've ever played and I'd be surprised if there was no backlash at some point.
Death is highly punishing, many mini boss encounters require you to clear trash around them to properly fight the mini boss and you have to redo the whole thing if you die, you lose like half money and experience and no way to get it back like going back to your souls in DS. Your character is weak as hell and it only take a few hits from anything to die. The game demands mastering execution and understanding of enemies moves and will punish you real fast for any mistake in deflecting or dodging.

 

[Sentinel]

Those purple dudes

You mean the double mini boss before him? You didn't actually fight them 1v2 right?

 

[Sentinel]

Just got to the part where you fight 1vs2 against two purple ninjas in a small room... So cheap, makes me want to just stop playing.

M8, have you beaten the corrupted monk? If so, think about the skill you got from him. That fight is designed for you to use the skill.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Game acquired.

Get killed by the very first mook (a 2 dot guy).

LOL, Shinobi Ninja can't punch...I guess.

Prepare for incoming


Zep--

 

[Somberlain]

Spoiler

Puppeteer is an excellent skill in certain bosses.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Those purple dudes

You mean the double mini boss before him? You didn't actually fight them 1v2 right?

No, I killed the one on the left and dueled vilehand.

 

[Sentinel]

Those purple dudes

You mean the double mini boss before him? You didn't actually fight them 1v2 right?

No, I killed the one on the left and dueled vilehand.

You can possess the one on the left and turn the fight into a 2v1 in your favor.

 

[Zep Zepo]

*delete dbl post*

Zep--

 

[Puteo]

I don't understand what the fuck reviewers played by writing this is easier than Souls titles, because it's not, it's a fucking nightmare and the more you advance the more harder it turns.

If professional reviewers can be counted on to do anything reliably it's to absolutely fail at properly reviewing a game and I guarantee that they did not actually finish it without hiring a pro to do it for them.

Gamers love Fromsoft games but reviewers can't play them because they invariably suck at videogames. They just guessed that people would like it since it looks like a high quality game in the vein of previous titles and handed down the same scores they gave for the last few soulsbourne games.

Better to do that than admit they died 2000 times and couldn't get anywhere if the game turns out to be as easy as DS3 a la IGN's infamous God Hand review.

 

[Suicidal]

I swear I must be doing something wrong because I'm not finding the game all that difficult. Not saying it's easy (it does require some patience and learning the mechanics) but all of this talk about the game being "bullshit", "impossibly hard" or how people spent several hours on the spear guy makes me wonder if I'm playing witch cheats or something.

 

[Jinn]

(it does require some patience and learning the mechanics)

I think these are absolutely the most crucial aspects of facing the challenge of this game.

 

[Jenkem]

reviewers and "influencers" were given dumbed down copies, I'm sure of it.

look up various boss fight guides on youtube and you will see the bosses literally just stand there compared to how they act in the actual game.

 

[Suicidal]

reviewers and "influencers" were given dumbed down copies, I'm sure of it.

look up various boss fight guides on youtube and you will see the bosses literally just stand there compared to how they act in the actual game.

It happens in my game as well. It's just From Software AI things. For example I managed to lock Lady Butterfly in a corner and pretty much took half her health by mashing attack and blocking after every 4th hit and she didn't even try to do anything else during that time (jump on wires, do one of her unblockable moves).

 

[Nathir]

Those purple dudes

You mean the double mini boss before him? You didn't actually fight them 1v2 right?

No, I killed the one on the left and dueled vilehand.

You can possess the one on the left and turn the fight into a 2v1 in your favor.

Yeah I already beat them. Didn't realize I could actually assassinate the one on the left before the fight starts. After I did so I beat it in one try.

 

[Lutte]

I swear I must be doing something wrong because I'm not finding the game all that difficult. Not saying it's easy (it does require some patience and learning the mechanics) but all of this talk about the game being "bullshit", "impossibly hard" or how people spent several hours on the spear guy makes me wonder if I'm playing witch cheats or something.

I wouldn't use hyperbolic terms like "impossibly hard" it's obviously not anywhere near the upper ends of madness only achieved by arcade game true end bosses and some crazy indie things. But it's certainly a cut well above the souls standard for difficulty. It's a demanding game. And also a punishing one when it comes to the sort of things you have to redo upon some deaths.

I very often stated the opinion that souls games aren't really hard, but more like optionally sort-of hard if you cripple yourself and don't use all the tools the game give you that can dramatically diminish difficulty. Sekiro isn't optionally hard. It's standard hard. A game like DS3 gives you few heals at the beginning of the game, but bosses die quickly (with a good upgraded weapon) and the patterns aren't that relentless until you get much more heals and higher soul level. Bloodborne requires farming, but the amount of heal given is pretty big and allows for many mistakes before you actually die. I died a lot on Gascoigne, it's the boss that killed me the most of the entire game, but before I died to him, I almost always went through the full 20 of blood vials meaning the fight drew on for a decent amount of time before I had to come back to it. In Sekiro it's like you start with nothing and a breeze will kill you. You always have to focus strongly on avoiding any damage because you will be punished very fast for any mistake you've made.