The problem with the RTS genre

[majorsoccer]

The problem with the RTS genre is that people will associate all the RTS genre with only games like age of empires,Starcraft,Command and Conquer,Warcraft and so on...these games are very similiar because they're are in a sub-genre of RTS that never had a name.Take a look at Wolfenstein 3D/DOOM,they are in a FPS sub-genre that is called old-school fps,now take a look at Arma/Battlefield,they are in the military fps sub-genre,they are very different from old-school fps but they are still called as a FPS.Now take a look at Command and Conquer/Starcraft(C&C and Stacraft are to the RTS's what Wolfenstein 3D and DOOM is to FPS's)they are RTS,they are similiar,but people never gave to these games a specific Sub-genre name so they are called just as a RTS,now...take a look at games like Myth,Commandos,Pharaoh,League of Legends,Tropico or Nexus: The Jupiter Incident,would you call these games as RTS's ? because technically they are !! just in different sub-genres.

So...is not the RTS genre that is dying,is the Dune/C&C/Starcraft clones that are rare nowadays just like the Wolfenstein 3d/DOOM clones are rare nowadays.

 

[laclongquan]

Nice first post.

Tried to troll hard but failing to generate interest. Fail even in factual statement...

Actually, I take it back. It's not a nice first post.

 

[majorsoccer]

Nice first post.

Tried to troll hard but failing to generate interest. Fail even in factual statement...

Actually, I take it back. It's not a nice first post.

And you failed to give any useful reply.

My point is:RTT,Real time City Builders,Tycoon games like Rollecaster Tycoon,Mobas,some mixed games like Total war and some Puzzles games are all part of the RTS genre but split in different sub-genres.Yet age of empires and others dune 2 clones doens't have a sub-genre,so they are called just "RTS",because of this people nowadays think the RTS genre is dying.

 

[Fedora Master]

The problem with RTS games right here:

 

[laclongquan]

The strange thing is that even with huge interest from Korea and/or China, no noticeable RTS games from Chinese and Korean developers.

 

[AgentFransis]

The problem with RTS games right here:

The problem with RTS is competitive League of Legends?

Just recently I decided to go back to playing Soulstorm (after listening to the All Guardsman Squad stories). For now just playing the campaign and skirmishes trying to git gud and watching some replay commentaries. Very fun game, much easier to get into than something like AoE or SC since the macro is much simpler.

 

[majorsoccer]

Any strategy game played in real time is a RTS,that is a fact ! anyone who disagree with that is dumb.

 

[tindrli]

im tempted to install and play NEXUS. AGAIN!!!!

 

[thesheeep]

I'm pretty sure you just made all of these definitions up.
Anyway, you aren't wrong that it is just the very classic, Starcraft/Warcraft-like game that has become rare. Still, that's not really news, it's been like this for a long time but every now and then a game in that genre still does come out (wasn't there recently something with dinosaurs?).

 

[BING XI LAO]

remove gookclick

 

[vota DC]

Any strategy game played in real time is a RTS,that is a fact ! anyone who disagree with that is dumb.

But you listed Myth too. Where is the strategy there if the game is just about tactics? Strategy is never in the game unlike mixed games like Total War that have turn based strategy and real time tactics.
What about Fifa? You have tactics on the field, then a strategy part similar to paradox grand strategy genre. Is Fifa rts too?

 

[laclongquan]

The strange thing is that even with huge interest from Korea and/or China, no noticeable RTS games from Chinese and Korean developers.

Typical orientals, can't innovate or create their own thing.

Even here in Brazil we got our own national Starcraft clone, Outlive.

The point is "noticeable RTS" not "Chinese starcraft clones" the likes China has plenty.

 

[majorsoccer]

Any strategy game played in real time is a RTS,that is a fact ! anyone who disagree with that is dumb.

But you listed Myth too. Where is the strategy there if the game is just about tactics? Strategy is never in the game unlike mixed games like Total War that have turn based strategy and real time tactics.
What about Fifa? You have tactics on the field, then a strategy part similar to paradox grand strategy genre. Is Fifa rts too?

to be honest one game can have alot of genres,look at Morrowind for example:

Morrowind is a RPG,Action-Rpg,Third-Person,First-person,Open-World...

Look at Steam(the biggest gaming store in the internet),they list alot of supposed "non-rts" games as RTS because of this whole mess that is what define a "real-time-Strategy" game.It is time to we stop calling just the Dune 2 clones as RTS.

https://store.steampowered.com/search/?&tags=1676

 

[majorsoccer]

Anyway,not related to the thread,but today i started playing Starcraft 2 trilogy campaigns for the first time(i'm a fan of the original starcraft campaigns),holy crap ! Starcraft 2 is so boring !!! everything from the cinematics,to the soundtrack,to the voice acting,everything feels like a generic blockbuster movie,SC2 lack of any soul or appeal, really ! feels like World of Warcraft.Now i understand why people hate Diablo 3 so much ! Blizzard nowadays makes every game looking like a generic boring Blockbuster movie to appeal to the masses,fuck them !!



I heard SC2 atleast has some good designed single player missions and challenging skirmish against AI,but i don't know if i can stand all the boring bullshit this game throw at my screen !

 

[vota DC]

Any strategy game played in real time is a RTS,that is a fact ! anyone who disagree with that is dumb.

But you listed Myth too. Where is the strategy there if the game is just about tactics? Strategy is never in the game unlike mixed games like Total War that have turn based strategy and real time tactics.
What about Fifa? You have tactics on the field, then a strategy part similar to paradox grand strategy genre. Is Fifa rts too?

to be honest one game can have alot of genres,look at Morrowind for example:

Morrowind is a RPG,Action-Rpg,Third-Person,First-person,Open-World...

Look at Steam(the biggest gaming store in the internet),they list alot of supposed "non-rts" games as RTS because of this whole mess that is what define a "real-time-Strategy" game.It is time to we stop calling just the Dune 2 clones as RTS.

https://store.steampowered.com/search/?&tags=1676

Age of Empires is not Dune clone, it is quite slow paced.
Resource management and tactics are a MUST for Rts because name. I agree that if they set tactics and resource in other way, then it is still rts. Some examples:
-Dungeon Keeper is mostly base building and strategy, the mosters moves the way they want, but you can still drop and use spells to influence battle so it is a RTS since both strategy and tactics are real time.
-Populous and other god games are rts just like Dungeon Keeper.
-Z lacks base building, still you can decide which unit build so it is still RTS.
-Some managerial game with resource management in real time and that you need to positionate your employers are still rts, I can't think names for now
-Dune 1 can be called rts while it isn't perfectly real time.

 

[Mazisky]

I would say that Dungeon keeper is more a tycoon than a Rts.

 

[Sranchammer]

The problem with RTS is that it's inherently toxic masculinity.

 

[majorsoccer]

I do wonder what killed the RTS. I have seen many people that said Starcraft killed it.

Personally I think its because RTS is fundamentally a mouse-clicking contest. Its possibly the most mentally and physically demanding genre of game. You have to be super-aware of all times, consider all factors, be as fast as possible, and never relent for a second.
In short, due to its structure, its fundamentally a type of game that is inherently dominated by young koreans with bot-like mouse-clicking reflex and autistic memorization of build-orders.

In short, Reflex and Autism >>> Strategy and Tactics.

I think that any revival of the genre would therefore require:

a) A entirely new mold of RTS, one that finally breaks out of the Dune II mold that was made famous by Starcraft and C&C, and features different, original gameplay other than the usual Build Base-Gather Resources-Fight Enemy-Destroy Enemy loop.

b) A new form of player input, one that nivelates people who would be vastly distant in mouse reflex skill.

Multiplayer in RTS is garbage.Campaigns lack of replayability and most of the time you turtle in your base until you get the upgrades,Top-tier units,large armies and rush the enemy base.Skirmish against AI is fun for a while until the AI become too easy to beat it.

Compare this to the 4x and Grand Strategy games where you play for hundreds of hours until you can master the game enough to beat the harddest AI difficulty or play multiplayer properly without requiring thousands of clicks per minute.

Also there little to no RNG in RTS games,meaning that every match is dejavu every time

 

[BING XI LAO]

I do wonder what killed the RTS. I have seen many people that said Starcraft killed it.

Personally I think its because RTS is fundamentally a mouse-clicking contest. Its possibly the most mentally and physically demanding genre of game. You have to be super-aware of all times, consider all factors, be as fast as possible, and never relent for a second.
In short, due to its structure, its fundamentally a type of game that is inherently dominated by young koreans with bot-like mouse-clicking reflex and autistic memorization of build-orders.

In short, Reflex and Autism >>> Strategy and Tactics.

I think that any revival of the genre would therefore require:

a) A entirely new mold of RTS, one that finally breaks out of the Dune II mold that was made famous by Starcraft and C&C, and features different, original gameplay other than the usual Build Base-Gather Resources-Fight Enemy-Destroy Enemy loop.

b) A new form of player input, one that nivelates people who would be vastly distant in mouse reflex skill.

I totally agree on build orders, they're so robotic, so boring. Why even play yourself when you might as well get a script to run the eco for the first 5 minutes? Escaping build orders is why I play games like Age of Wonders, DotA2, and Dominions 5 - in those, each match is unique right from the start, and while there are similar things you want to do in every early game, it's never rigid and figured out like a build order is.

Same with reflex, even dota2 doesn't really have much emphasis on reflex compared to AoE2, and that's in turn way less than Starcraft.

Nivelates - does that mean - 'puts on an even footing'? It's not a word in english but it ought to be.

 

[majorsoccer]

The only classic RTS games done right: Rise of Nations,Seven Kingdoms,Knights of Honor and Stronghold.everything else is dune 2 copy and paste

 

[Runciter]

You guys should check out Wargame: Red Dragon. It's a niche RTS for grown-ups that's relatively recent and still has an active player base. Has some micro but APM isn't the determining factor.

 

[BING XI LAO]

https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/wargame-red-dragon

user reviews look promising, even the negative ones
Plus they jsut released ISRAEL as a nation pack, majestic incline

 

[DeepOcean]

Problem with RTS is that developers for many years pretty much acted as if the ultra competitive MP scene would carry their games but the reality is that a few games that have a decent support to grow a MP competitive community will thrive and the vast majority of RTS games wont. Most people like to fuck around the gameplay but they don't care enough to dedicate time to be good at the MP scene and those that care, pretty much they will focus on a few games they like and that is it, Starcraft, Age of Empires and the odd Supreme commander player. Most RTS games offer garbage single player content/co-op content and that is what you need on a game that doesn't have enough of a population to allow for decent pvp.

 

[Nirvash]

The problem with RTS is competitive League of Legends?

Actually, yes.

Mobas and rts overlap alot in gameplay and most people just don't really care about base building and/or using many units at the same time.
Like those liking base building then got tower defense games.

In the end, normal rts are just a niche.

 

[Mazisky]

It may be niche now, but if they release stuff like Age of empire 4, Starcraft 3 or a new Command and Conquer..they would sell a lot.