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KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
I hope the Women DLC is nothing but 8 hours of baking bread and looking after the kids. You know, a woman's lot during the Middle Ages. Also it would infuriate the usual suspects.
So Harvest Moon in middle century?
If baking bread is just as fun as alchemy then count me the fuck in :incline:
Marrying emperors, cooking poisoned mushroom soup for them.

Womans lot in middle century is more fun than you think.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
710
Location
Belgistan
Eh? How's this particular growling different from the hundreds of other bands from this genre pool? It's pretty standard.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
I dont know but it hurts my ears lol.
Smejki can you tell me, am I supposed to be getting between 25-40 FPS with GTX 1060 6 GB, 8 GB RAM and i5 6500 3,2 GHz
honestly, the game optimalization has been really disappointing and Ive been waiting for some patches to make it smooth. How come TW3 is buttery smooth for me everywhere and this kills my PC..
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
710
Location
Belgistan
The CPU is pretty mediocre but serviceable
8GB RAM is questionable at best
GPU is good enough

How come TW3 is buttery smooth for me everywhere and this kills my PC..
How come? The games do completely different things on different technologies using different assets differently in different density.
I don't really know what else to say.
I could get into more technical details but I don't think that you as a consumer should care much about our limitations in terms of money, time, and other resources which didn't allow us to optimize better and on time.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Well i care more about the optimalization which you seem to have given up on in favor of dlcs which in turn i dont care about so there.
Yeah the games do different things blah blah but they dont really. You draw an open world with buildings and characters and trees but the cry engine runs like shit the reason probably being you didnt put in the time.

Ive been patient with the game, bought it on release and waited for you to fix the broken shit but now I would like there to finally be performance patches since it still runs like crap.

Humor me and explain what is it that makes your game run worse than its prettier and bigger and older competition. And dont just say money.
Tell me what is the technical difference between how these 2 games are built? Whats the resources hog in KC thats not in TW3?
Dont just say Im stupid and cant understand it. Im sure you can manage a level of explanation that is both technical and understandable.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,165
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Humor me and explain what is it that makes your game run worse than its prettier and bigger and older competition.

And much simpler. One of the reasons KCD is more demanding is the AI system is my guess. If you give your NPCs their own life they hog more CPU resources than figurines that just stand in place with a question mark over their heads.

Also TW3 isn't prettier.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Sure TW3 is prettier. The animations the character models and the lighting cant even compare. But its ok i get it and both games have their own style and charm and im not dissing KC because of that.
 

Starwars

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
2,829
Location
Sweden
Also, probably unrelated to performance I guess, but I will never understand the decision to make the Witcher 3's world stuck in an almost permanent storm as well as having sunsets that look like a nuclear bomb going off.
 

Sinatar

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
569
How come TW3 is buttery smooth for me everywhere and this kills my PC..

Witcher 3 was made by talented people who coded a brand new engine from scratch custom built for their game. Kingdom Come was slapped together in a shitty engine designed for action games.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
710
Location
Belgistan
Well i care more about the optimalization which you seem to have given up on in favor of dlcs which in turn i dont care about so there.
This right here is a fallacy. One cannot optimize a game by throwing 100 animators, writers, scripters, concept artists, 3d artists, cinematic artist... etc. In practice DLC development and optimization are independent parallel processes. You need programmers to optimize shit and a sizeable chunk of them have been working on optimization.

Optimization means taking what you have and tweak it to make it faster or less demanding. But you cannot expect miracles.
We cannot throw out and completely rethink the clothing system - one of the biggest culprits. We cannot drop or scale down the heavy emphasis on persistence. We cannot convert all slow parts of the scripted systems into code at this stage (although we did to that to some extent). Some of these systems are fundamental for what the game is in the end. It might be invisible to you. You might see no added value in it. Fair. I also think we overdo some stuff. Have you ever tried to make sense of how the NPCs in cities work in Witcher 3? What the clothing system allows? Have you ever tried to analyze its crime system and general NPC reactions to your actions? This is all the stuff we do differently and it takes its toll. It really isn't only about
You draw an open world with buildings
If we only allowed 4 non-colliding clothing slots (torso, legs, feet, hands), just like Witcher 3 does, if we spawned non-lootable graphically simplified generic NPCs around you as you move through the sapece, just like Witcher 3 or GTA does, and if we halfassed the crime system, just like Witcher 3 does, if we dissolved dead bodies within seconds and replaced them with a 10-polygon pile of goo for looting interaction, just like Witcher 3 does, KCD would be much much faster. You can bet you ass on it.

And sure, partly it's caused by CryEngine (or the version we're using). For example, I heard from our programmers that the animation system, although quite powerful, is incredibly heavy-handed when considering what an open-world game with hundreds of NPCs actually needs. And we couldn't completely rewrite that either. Or other headaches are caused by CryEngine's inability to dynamically stream entities. All instances are present in the memory at all times. We wanted to have this system dynamic but we didn't have enough people or a way to pay them when the time was right. So yeah, money as well. There you have it.

So in conclusion...
Could it run better? I guess so. Should it run better? Definitely.
Should you as a customer care abut any of this? No. And that's what I said already. The game runs poorly for you and you think you're gaining nothing for it. That's a completely valid stance and I understand it.

Also
Seriously? Pretty is how it looks not how it works. You cannot compare games with completely different art direction (one being stylized semi-realism and the other being photorealism) and draw conclusion on the inner workings based on your judgment of their artistic qualities. It would be only possible if you comapared near identical games in terms of looks and design.

PS: another patch is incoming. there will be over 900 fixes and some of it is optimization.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
For what it's worth - it runs surprisingly good on my mid-range toaster most of the time.
I do get <60fps during night in large settlements (I guess it's the light sources/torches) and for some reason riding on my horse and having the horse-head in view reduces fps, too (also some issuess with streaming). But otherwise, pretty stable and smooth.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Love me some devs doing real dev talk to counter armchair experts. Kudos to you, Smejki :salute:
The "real talk" (lol are you 14?) only comes after I complained and half of it is saying they could have done it better. Which probably means they can still optimize the game if they put time = money into it.
DEV TOTALLY MURDERS A SJW COMPILATION!!! PLZ SUBSCRIBE
This right here is a fallacy. One cannot optimize a game by throwing 100 animators, writers, scripters, concept artists, 3d artists, cinematic artist... etc. In practice DLC development and optimization are independent parallel processes. You need programmers to optimize shit and a sizeable chunk of them have been working on optimization.
OK but you said you didnt have the time to do optimization because of money and DLC is a totally separate process done only by animators and facebook managers and you fired all the programmers immediately after the game was shipped or what the fuck are you trying to say.
Optimization means taking what you have and tweak it to make it faster or less demanding. But you cannot expect miracles.
We cannot throw out and completely rethink the clothing system - one of the biggest culprits. We cannot drop or scale down the heavy emphasis on persistence. We cannot convert all slow parts of the scripted systems into code at this stage (although we did to that to some extent). Some of these systems are fundamental for what the game is in the end. It might be invisible to you. You might see no added value in it. Fair. I also think we overdo some stuff. Have you ever tried to make sense of how the NPCs in cities work in Witcher 3? What the clothing system allows? Have you ever tried to analyze its crime system and general NPC reactions to your actions? This is all the stuff we do differently and it takes its toll. It really isn't only about
OK finally some information - the clothing system? The real (as compared to TW3) NPCs? The persistency? The AI interactions and relationships? OK, now we are talking instead of saying MONEY MONEY NO TIME PROGRAMMERS TOTALLY DONT DO THE DLCS ITS ONLY OUR CLEANING LADY WORKING ON IT IN PARALLEL WITH PATCHING THE GAME.
Just asking. Basically what Im trying to say is why my new car runs like shit compared to the neighbors Moskvich and hope to get some answers like WELL AT LEAST WE HAVE BLUETOOTH AND AIRBAGS AND ZERO EMISSIONS

So in conclusion...
Could it run better? I guess so. Should it run better? Definitely.
Should you as a customer care abut any of this? No. And that's what I said already. The game runs poorly for you and you think you're gaining nothing for it. That's a completely valid stance and I understand it.
It makes the pain more tolerable when you at least explain it instead of feeling like you are riding the hype train as long as its not stopped and started vomitting DLCs instead of caring about the base game. Which I still kinda think you are doing because it makes the most sense for you, get the game to work so-so and pump out new content to keep the journos writing.

To be honest, I think its completely ridiculous that I have to wait 2 years to be able to play the game comfortably while you split your time between DLCs I cant enjoy cuz they are stuttery as fuck and optimizing the game. Unless you tell me again that your 200 persons team is totally just grinding out those optimization patches and Vavra alone is drawing storyboards for new DLCs and future projects.
 

Open Path

Learned
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
67
Location
Hesperides
Uniqueness, interactivity, diversity in models and general systems are far more demanding than textures, lighting and shadows or even 3d models complexity, specially in the large open world context. This is -very- basic video games knowledge. Partially this is because the different level of the average/enthusiast CPU and GPU and what each of them work on.

This is a problem in every game oriented toward uniqueness and in the last years towards complex npc schedules also, so many guys tend to think that "grrrraphicsss" are the heaviest part concerning game performance so they complaint about bad optimization independently of what every game adds in regard amount of different content and systems -npc schedules included- complexity.

Also The Witcher 3 is not only simpler game than KCD in near everything, in the performance context, but contrary to what was stated here is no significantly bigger that KCD. The main map in The Witcher, Velen + Novigrad or the Skellige one if you prefer are SMALLER than KCD map, and The Witcher 3 world is only bigger if we count different zones, independently rendered and calculated so no very relevant to performance.
 
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Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
2,010
Jeez Cadmus. Slow your roll. You come off as a bit of a retard eventhough I am sure you ain't one.

This though

25-40 FPS with GTX 1060 6 GB, 8 GB RAM and i5 6500 3,2 GHz
this is way too low unless you are running ultra preset or something

I had 40-60 with i5 2500K,8GB,GTX1070 on high preset. Not ideal, but it was playable.

Of course now after I upgraded my 8 year old CPU/Mobo to Ryzen 2700X/16GB/RTX2080Ti, the game runs much better.
 

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