Epic Games Store - the console war comes to PC

[Reinhardt]

Because game journos said you so.

 

[Infinitron]

Also everybody talking about muh 30% never addresses why I, the consumer, should care. Are the savings being passed on to me in the form of lower prices? No? Why the fuck should I give a shit then?

You shouldn't, except perhaps in the speculative sense that it could lead to more and better video games being developed due to more money being in the ecosystem (but then I think there are enough games in this world as it is - frankly we need less of them not more)

But some people, regardless of whether they actually care about it as gamers, are saying that the Epic Games Store will FAIL to coerce Steam into reducing its 30% revenue fee. They could end up being wrong!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

Or when developers like Vogel were selling "thousands of copies!" from their own little sites and couldn't even dream of selling tens of thousands of copies, not to mention hundreds.

As for publishers, allow me to refresh everyone's memory of how the system worked:
https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=130

Why Steam... the reason Steam is so fantastic, is because the game can be developed and distributed without any publisher involvement. Laidback will get to keep the IP, which means that the idea and world the game takes place in will still be ours. Laidback can make a great title, put it up there and people can download it for less than they'd pay in the stores. On top of that, Laid Back will only need to sell a very small number of copies to recoup its cost and keep the company going.

To help everyone better understand, I will explain Publisher funding vs. Developer return process. I'm going to simplify it a lot, but this is more or less how it works.... and it's really quite amazing...

After they agree to fund your game for 6 million, you begin production. They give you 500k a month upon receiving, reviewing, and approving your milestone. They are basically checking every month to make sure the game is actually being made and going in a good direction Fair enough. To keep things easy, let's say the game ships on time and they've given you a clean 6 million bucks.

Ready?.... You get 10% of the royalties of the game! So like if the game sells 1 million units at Electronics Boutique for 50 bucks a piece, you get 5 million dollars coming back at you right?!??!

WRONG

EB bought the game for 40 dollars and sells it for 50. Now the publisher takes away their expenses of producing the full color manual and the pretty box and such which we'll say is 10 bucks (usually more like 7, but let's keep the math easy). So now we are down to 30 bucks, and you get 10% of that... 3 bucks.... but WAIT!!! Your 3 dollars doesn't go into your pocket, your 3 bucks goes to pay back the publisher what you borrowed to make the game. They did give you 6 million dollars. So before the developer see's a check in the mail, you would have to sell 2 million units!!!!! So the developer before the developer gets a check, the publisher gets 30 million dollars coming in.

Crazy huh?

So why choose Steam? I have chosen Steam because if you buy Valves engine to make your game with, you get to keep 100% of what you sell on Steam. That's right 100%. So using our math from above, if I can sell the game on Steam for 30 bucks and cost 6 million to make, I'll be seeing a check after the game sells 200k units instead of 2 million. AND the check I get for the units I sell will be 10 times more than it would be from a publisher AND after all this wonderfulness, you guys all get the game for 30 bucks instead of 50....

It's an all around winner.

If Troika was able to sell the games they made through Steam and sold only a 1/4 of the units they did, they'd be thriving today and everyone would have really cool RPG's to play. The more people who download, install, and actively use Steam the better. It's really small developers only hope to get their games out to people.

As far as the game being in a boxed version, it's possible... but I would wait until the game is close to completion before I entertained the idea of a publisher putting it on the shelf. If the game is done and there is a lot of buzz around it, then the developer holds all the cards could get a better deal out of it. Valve would also have their concerns as well and I would want to make sure the wonderful world of Steam would take TOP priority.[/quote\

 

[rusty_shackleford]

As people in that thread state, it's kind of lame the way that Geldreich guy appears to portray Valve as uniquely malicious for demanding the same standard fee as every other digital storefront. He seems like a disgruntled crank.

That said...if at the end of all of this, Valve do reduce their revenue share, you'll have to admit that Epic achieved something! Man, I'd love to know what Gabe Newell thinks of all this. Hopefully there'll be an interview someday.

Steam's cut was already a massive step up from brick and mortar to begin with, which is why portraying them as a mustache twirling villain is fucking hilarious.

 

[Turjan]

Also everybody talking about muh 30% never addresses why I, the consumer, should care. Are the savings being passed on to me in the form of lower prices? No? Why the fuck should I give a shit then?

Quite the opposite actually. As a consumer, I often get a part of "Steam's" 30% share in form of a discount at stores that officially sell Steam keys. My dim view of Epic's tactics is based on concerns for my own cut of the deal.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

"the packaging is raising the prices! the box, the cd, the manual, the delivery... switch to not owning what you pay for and we'll drastically cut prices! we totally promise!"
yet games cost even more.
fuck off, piratebay is the only answer.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

"the packaging is raising the prices! the box, the cd, the manual, the delivery... switch to not owning what you pay for and we'll drastically cut prices! i totally promise!"
yet games cost even more.
fuck off, piratebay is the only answer.

Not sure about other countries, but in USA(USD) games are a lot cheaper now than they used to be, especially adjusting for inflation. They're still a bit pricey on release but they drop in price fast. The new AC:Odyssey game was already listed at $24(60% off) despite it selling extremely well, for example.
Of course some publishers are outliers and refuse to basically ever drop their games in price e.g., 2K does this frequently I think.

 

[Lutte]

As people in that thread state, it's kind of lame the way that Geldreich guy appears to portray Valve as uniquely malicious for demanding the same standard fee as every other digital storefront. He seems like a disgruntled crank.

That said...if at the end of all of this, Valve do reduce their revenue share, you'll have to admit that Epic achieved something! Man, I'd love to know what Gabe Newell thinks of all this. Hopefully there'll be an interview someday.

Steam's cut was already a massive step up from brick and mortar to begin with, which is why portraying them as a mustache twirling villain is fucking hilarious.

Funny thing is that buying games at launch on amazon is often cheaper than buying them online digital distrib. So between the much lower cut they got from retail profits and lower overall prices, they got less money compared to digital distribution.
An example of a recent game release : if you buy Devil May Cry 5 on steam, you shell out 60 euros right now, outside of sales periods. On amazon you shell out 41 euros free shipping. It cost you less to get a physical box with a steam key inside (I'm assuming, these days most games are DRM'd to a store, if it's not steam then it's origin, uplay or some other shit) shipped to you than just getting it on steam.

Publishers make a ton of money from those of us who don't care for hassles and just buy outright on steam.
I don't buy on amazon because I don't really care for the savings much on games I actually enjoy and want to support but still, there's some hypocrisy about game profits from publishers in the era of digital distribution. And nobody forces them to engage sales, if they do it it's because they've already hit the optimum numbers of full price sales from suckers like me who don't wait for sales. Sales are about getting the trailing buyers.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

As people in that thread state, it's kind of lame the way that Geldreich guy appears to portray Valve as uniquely malicious for demanding the same standard fee as every other digital storefront. He seems like a disgruntled crank.

That said...if at the end of all of this, Valve do reduce their revenue share, you'll have to admit that Epic achieved something! Man, I'd love to know what Gabe Newell thinks of all this. Hopefully there'll be an interview someday.

Steam's cut was already a massive step up from brick and mortar to begin with, which is why portraying them as a mustache twirling villain is fucking hilarious.

Funny thing is that buying games at launch on amazon is often cheaper than buying them online digital distrib. So between the much lower cut they got from retail profits and lower overall prices, they got less money compared to digital distribution.
An example of a recent game release : if you buy Devil May Cry 5 on steam, you shell out 60 euros right now, outside of sales periods. On amazon you shell out 41 euros free shipping. It cost you less to get a physical box with a steam key inside (I'm assuming, these days most games are DRM'd to a store, if it's not steam then it's origin, uplay or some other shit) shipped to you than just getting it on steam.

Publishers make a ton of money from those of us who don't care for hassles and just buy outright on steam.
I don't buy on amazon because I don't really care for the savings much on games I actually enjoy and want to support but still, there's some hypocrisy about game profits from publishers in the era of digital distribution. And nobody forces them to engage sales, if they do it it's because they've already hit the optimum numbers of full price sales from suckers like me who don't wait for sales. Sales are about getting the trailing buyers.

Interestingly, DMC5 isn't even available on Amazon for PC in USA: https://www.amazon.com/Devil-May-Cry-5-PlayStation-4/dp/B07DJX3XJS
Wonder what the reason for that is

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

"the packaging is raising the prices! the box, the cd, the manual, the delivery... switch to not owning what you pay for and we'll drastically cut prices! i totally promise!"
yet games cost even more.
fuck off, piratebay is the only answer.

Not sure about other countries, but in USA(USD) games are a lot cheaper now than they used to be, especially adjusting for inflation. They're still a bit pricey on release but they drop in price fast. The new AC:Odyssey game was already listed at $24(60% off) despite it selling extremely well, for example.
Of course some publishers are outliers and refuse to basically ever drop their games in price e.g., 2K does this frequently I think.

15 years ago i regularly bought games for 25-30 euros, brand new. now it's 50-60 or gtfo.
this not counting the remaining 200 more in dlc you must spend to not have an amputee of a game.

 

[A_boring_GOG_bot]

Interestingly, DMC5 isn't even available on Amazon for PC in USA: https://www.amazon.com/Devil-May-Cry-5-PlayStation-4/dp/B07DJX3XJS
Wonder what the reason for that is

I don't find it in the UK store .
The german store has it . https://www.amazon.de/Devil-May-Cry-5-PC/dp/B07DQ88P8M/

 

[Lutte]

Interestingly, DMC5 isn't even available on Amazon for PC in USA: https://www.amazon.com/Devil-May-Cry-5-PlayStation-4/dp/B07DJX3XJS
Wonder what the reason for that is

The trend has been, since a couple years, moving toward very limited runs of """"physical"""" (with online store key) PC game copies. Sometimes they may exist but for a limited amount of copies to sell. Which means that now, outside of specific periods of sales, PC games are becoming potentially more expensive than console games, which is a complete reversal of what it used to be.

Case in point, for a game sold on a different store : Battlefield 5. It's 60 euros on origin (and probably 60 dollars on US origin)
Now for US amazon copies..

Console releases are under $30.
Mind you, amazon uses dynamic pricing strategies, among which (but not only criteria) is remaining stocks to ship, if something is plentiful it's invariably cheaper than when it's limited run or like currently on US amazon, restocking process and not available till April 16th.
Then you take into account that console gamers can buy used games, while PC gamers can't.
Consoles make up a large amount of gaming sales, but I bet PC profits aren't shabby considering the sort of cash cows we are, and how used game sales have become non-existent.
For a comparison on the console side, their online digital distribution isn't different : it's 70 euros for BF5 on PS4 if you buy it on the online playstation store.
Digital distribution heavily favors publishers. The occasional sales makes the games cheaper for a time period, but all the people who want games at launch always get fleeced if they buy digital.
But because of the trend toward limiting physical runs, the choice to not got digital will soon disappear.
Thus, the price discrepancy I'm talking about is about to become a moot point...

And microsoft is already planning on the console side a console with no physical media capability.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

"the packaging is raising the prices! the box, the cd, the manual, the delivery... switch to not owning what you pay for and we'll drastically cut prices! i totally promise!"
yet games cost even more.
fuck off, piratebay is the only answer.

Not sure about other countries, but in USA(USD) games are a lot cheaper now than they used to be, especially adjusting for inflation. They're still a bit pricey on release but they drop in price fast. The new AC:Odyssey game was already listed at $24(60% off) despite it selling extremely well, for example.
Of course some publishers are outliers and refuse to basically ever drop their games in price e.g., 2K does this frequently I think.

15 years ago i regularly bought games for 25-30 euros, brand new. now it's 50-60 or gtfo.
this not counting the remaining 200 more in dlc you must spend to not have an amputee of a game.

off the top of my head, 15 years ago was when half-life 2($49.99) and Doom 3($54.99) released.
Adjusted for inflation, Half-Life 2 would be $68, and Doom 3 would be $75.

 

[Lutte]

You are quoting MSRP. When there's a decent amount of real competition in retail space the customer rarely pays the full MSRP, and decades ago in physical retail there certainly was a lot more working competition, at least here. Now retail is pretty much dead, mostly a few tiny overpriced shops with very limited selection, but amazon is basically the new retail. Even for console games, physical stores are basically all pretty much dead in my region.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Guys, did you know that VALVE IS KILLING GAMING WITH ITS 30% CUT?! EPIC IS HERE TO SAVE US!! Bow down, mere mortals, and accept your salvation.

STEAM TAKES THIRTY PERCEEEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

Do these fucking retards even remember the days when games were only sold in boxes, so you had to deduce the production costs for the box and CD, and the retail stores would also take a cut, along with the publisher?

But yeah, those poor poor indie developers who sell their game without a publisher directly on Steam, and have to pay a 30% cut. How tragic and unfair.

"the packaging is raising the prices! the box, the cd, the manual, the delivery... switch to not owning what you pay for and we'll drastically cut prices! i totally promise!"
yet games cost even more.
fuck off, piratebay is the only answer.

Not sure about other countries, but in USA(USD) games are a lot cheaper now than they used to be, especially adjusting for inflation. They're still a bit pricey on release but they drop in price fast. The new AC:Odyssey game was already listed at $24(60% off) despite it selling extremely well, for example.
Of course some publishers are outliers and refuse to basically ever drop their games in price e.g., 2K does this frequently I think.

15 years ago i regularly bought games for 25-30 euros, brand new. now it's 50-60 or gtfo.
this not counting the remaining 200 more in dlc you must spend to not have an amputee of a game.

off the top of my head, 15 years ago was when half-life 2($49.99) and Doom 3($54.99) released.
Adjusted for inflation, Half-Life 2 would be $68, and Doom 3 would be $75.

did i fucking stutter?

 

[Paul_cz]

As for publishers, allow me to refresh everyone's memory of how the system worked:

Wait, did he really mean that if someone used Source engine and launched the game on steam, they got to keep 100% and Valve got 0%?

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for publishers, allow me to refresh everyone's memory of how the system worked:

Wait, did he really mean that if someone used Source engine and launched the game on steam, they got to keep 100% and Valve got 0%?

They had to pay for the engine (licensing fees). Back then ID charged 250k + 5% of sales for their engine, Epic charged 350k + 3% for Unreal 2, etc.

 

[Paul_cz]

They had to pay for the engine (licensing fees). Back then ID charged 250k + 5% of sales for their engine, Epic charged 350k + 3% for Unreal 2, etc.

Right, those were the days. But I am surprised Michael was able to afford source license, whatever it may have cost.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Geldreich is a crank, but I think it's entirely believable that Valve are making way more money than they need and can afford to reduce their fee without doing anything like that. At worst, they wouldn't have to take it all the way down to 12%. 20% would be something too.

And fortnite isn't making way more money than Epic needs? What kind of logic is that?

How about Epic cancelling the new UT to have more devs for fortnite when they clearly have the funds to keep the project alive? Bitchass that thought PC gamers are just pirates now wants a piece of the pie and somehow these mongos keep siding with him...

A plucky developer with plenty of chutzpah might make an Unreal Tournament clone with Unreal engine and then ask for an exclusive deal with Epic.

 

[MuscleSpark]

As people in that thread state, it's kind of lame the way that Geldreich guy appears to portray Valve as uniquely malicious for demanding the same standard fee as every other digital storefront. He seems like a disgruntled crank.

Gee, you think?
https://www.pcgamer.com/ex-valve-employee-describes-ruthless-industry-politics/

Former Valve employee Rich Geldreich, who worked at the company between 2009 and 2014, has spent the past several days tweeting detailed accounts of the internal politics at 'self-organizing' companies—one of which he says is based in Bellevue, Washington, where Valve is headquartered. Some of Geldreich's comments could be about any self-organizing company (that is, a company without a traditional hierarchical management structure), but other, more specific references suggest he is largely talking about Valve. For instance, he comments on mass layoffs in 2013, and we know layoffs occurred at Valve that year.

 

[DalekFlay]

I'm generally on the side of more competition being good, and thus don't hate the Epic store, but those Geldreich tweets are pure retardo. Valve basically saved PC gaming during the dark days, when the "IS PC GAMING DEAD?!?!?" actually had a leg to stand on, by making it cheaper and easier for publishers to release PC versions and giving smaller companies and indies an avenue to revenue. The 30% cut was completely fair if not a bargain compared to the physical retail landscape. That doesn't mean I think Steam should be king for life, and times do change so maybe 30% is now too high, we'll see how this all shakes out. But acting like Valve are killing PC gaming is the stupidest fucking shit I've ever heard.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I disagree. Before steam could just ignore the whinging, but now a lot of those complaining devs can run to epic if steam doesn't coddle them now.

Um, but Borderlands developer has already run to Epic, that's the reason the review bombings are happening.

And steam wants them back, and to retain the devs still on its platform, as such, they must play ball as it were. Or I suspect at least, that they are worried and feel as if they must play ball or the consequences could be disastrous for them. Epic is the first true competition they've had in a long fucking time. And no, GoG was never good or big enough to be actual competition, and GoG wasn't engaging in practices like epic, so far as I know.

 

[V_K]

Epic is the first true competition they've had in a long fucking time. And no, GoG was never good or big enough to be actual competition, and GoG wasn't engaging in practices like epic, so far as I know.

GOG also didn't receive all the backlash Epic is getting, so I doubt Valve is bothered enough to actually do any countermeasures.

and to retain the devs still on its platform

Which is why it's precisely in Valve's interest to show these devs the extent of backlash that happens when they go Epic exclusive.

 

[Perkel]

GOG also didn't receive all the backlash Epic is getting, so I doubt Valve is bothered enough to actually do any countermeasures.

"Backlash" as if some dudes on internet can change people buying habits when they have to make decision to buy their favorite game or not.

As long as Epic does not make idiotic moves like introducing daily playing limit or outright incompetence where games can't even launch all of talk about "features" will not matter when at the end of the day you can't play game you are interested in.

Simply put most of people don't give a flying fuck about store they buy in. They just want to play game.

 

[DalekFlay]

Which is why it's precisely in Valve's interest to show these devs the extent of backlash that happens when they go Epic exclusive.

Only if it actually matters, i.e. sales are effected. Just because there's a lot of complaining on forums and twitter doesn't mean that actually has any real effect on the bottom line.